Number23 said:

see above...

sosgemini said:

i don't think any person's character has been brought into play in this thread. unless of course sassy decides to post, and then all bets are off.

sosgemini said:

i would absolutely and unequivically be against it.

i hate the word, even when used in a reclaimed sense. but i think the current site rules are effective enough to keep people from using the word in an offensive manner without expecting to be helf accountable for it.

i also think that if a person is dumb enough to use it to demean someone, the rest of us deserve to see it and know the person for the racist idiot they are.

sosgemini said:

I'm not critiquing anyone, I'm critiquing the idea. I think the idea is silly. I understand why folks may disagree with me, but I also explained why I feel the way I do. I'm not sure I know a better way to say 'silly' that wouldn't offend someone. And honestly, this is the first time I've ever been accused of being insensitive here on the org.

CarrieMpls said:

To be honest, the most frustrating thing I've seen on the Org hasn't been the posts where I've seen the word used offensively. I think the Org is good about posters calling out other posters when stuff like that happens.

The thing I hear about the most, complaints-wise, is the feeling that people can make posts about groups (ethnic minorities and others) that clearly serve no purpose other to slam them -- and get away with it.

The point of such posts is to get a rise out of someone, which is where I see the need for better moderation, as well as thicker skin on the part of people who see offense: Just don't let it bug you. It's not a home loan. It's not admission to Yale. It's a post on the Org.

And, for certain people, it's the only way they can feel like they have a remnant of power in a world that gets darker by the day.

ThreadBare said:

I'd agree with all of the above. And I'd add, it's important when we see obvious baiting to report it. I know the mods have said several times to report things as they don't see every post on every single thread and that's completely fair. Other than some minor things here and there (truly minor) I'm generally pleased with the job the moderators do here.
I also agree, sometimes people do need a bit thicker skin. I can't tell anyone what should or shouldn't offend them, but letting the naive or ignorant remarks of people on a messageboard bother you to a great extent is giving other folks way too much control over your emotions.
I also understand that sometimes a harsh remark can be the straw that broke the camel's back on the wrong day, or could be picking on something that runs a little too deep. I get that too.

ThreadBare said:

I agree for the most part with your post aside from the bolded part. Why should I get a thicker skin? Why should I not let it bother me? In the real world, one of the people I work with is racist and from time to time, I see and hear about racism. It would be way cool to have somewhere to chill where I didn't have to see/worry about racism. Do we confront racism, even on this small scale? Yes. We should not let people here get away with it. It's gone on for way too long and they are cearly becoming more comfortable.

Ban it. No discussion, no tolerance. I agree with Ivy, people have been getting away with shit here for way too long.

Romera said:

What you said actually I said in an earlier post. I agree that we should try to stamp all discrimination out. Racism hits closest to home for me, no doubt. I'm saying that a lot of stuff is done for effect and to get a rise out of people. I say when someone clearly is trying to engage in that kind of behavior, they should be banned. To try to go after a word, though -- especially one as pervasive as this -- seems a bit untenable at a Web site.

Didn't know the ORG had so many racist, out of touch people who jump at the chance to call other people's views and experiences silly? VERY SAD .

luv4u said:

Yuppers

Anx said:

I've been a long time poster on this site, and I've never seen a thread where emotions are so much at the surface. That said, I don't ever go to P&R for this very reason.

Let me preface my opinion by noting that this issue is one of many that makes me happy to not be a moderator. I don't know how they are able to manage it as well as they do. I speak with absolutely no authority, nor do I believe my opinion is the "right" one.

Here's my take: I can see pros and cons to both sides. There are many words that I hate, and the word at issue here is among them. I truly wish the word never existed and I would be happy to never, ever see it or hear it again. However, I think banning any word altogether is a bad idea for many reasons, most of which have been mentioned on this thread. It is definitely a precedent that I'm not sure the org wants to take, because censorship is among the slipperiest of slopes. I also think in some way it gives power to a word that is used by the ignorant and powerless. I also think, believe it or not, that it is possible to have a positive discussion about the word, its history and its meanings. I know personally that I would like to know more about it from those who know more than I do. Furthermore, I'd hate to think that those who have been victims of racism involving this word (or others of its kind) are unable to recount their stories here without censoring themselves.

That said, I am all for a stricter hand when racism or other such ignorance is used. If it were up to me, I would ban users who blatantly bait or belittle with such idiotic retorts. But then again, that's why I'm happy I'm not a moderator.
[Edited 7/3/06 20:19pm]

i wish we'd get as up in arms (myself included) about the stuff our own media (in america, anyway) won't let us read in print or even online.

of course, i just got back from a jello biafra lecture, so i'm all fired up in a righteous first amendment rage at the moment.

i know this is a privately-owned site and if ben doesn't want anyone using the word "jellybean", then so be it - but for us as an "online community" to start discussing the usefulness of policing words is kinda scary.

like i've said numerous times in this thread, my feelings aren't about racism as much as they are about expression and communication. it's not about that specific word. it's about the act of "banning" a word from our language. when we agree to do that, then we create a precedent that will lead to other words being banned. how far away would that be from banning ideas, opinions, points of view, or even actual information and facts?

at some point we have to police our own thoughts and take responsibility for our actions without depending on some kind of outside force to police our thoughts and words for us.

you know the saying "be careful what you ask for cuz you just might get it"? i think it comes into play in this discussion.

Anx said:

It's double-plus ungood.

nurse said:

You can address me directly. I'm the one who first said silly. And it was not in the context of calling anyone's experiences silly. (Nor did anyone else here.) I called the idea of banning a word silly. Racism and hateful speech exist beyond that word. Banning one word does not diminish anyone's ability to type racist, hateful or mean spirited things here. And as Anx has pointed out, once one word is banned, where does it stop? What's next?
Again, I say, banning users who bait and flame and use the word maliciously, I'm all for.

Anx said:

ditto

Anx said:

ditto , banning words is fascist!

CarrieMpls said:

Nothing personal really-but the whole tone of this thread is just wrong. Again I ask what was the reason for it's initiation because if it was to get a rise out of people-it succeeded . For that matter-this type of racial thread has been debated over and over here again at the ORG and nothing good ever comes of it even the discussions go bad. So again I say nothing personal, but until you've experienced this kind of racism be real cautious to call someone else's opinion silly. On that note .

nurse said:

and again i ask, before you judge my intent why not just ask me what my intentions are? oh wait, i already answered that:

i

said earlier:

i find it interesting that you want others to be sympathetic to your feelings yet you feel its okay to continually question my motives and character.

cant have it both ways.

sosgemini said:

Question your motives? Yes. But your character never or maybe you're questioning yourself regarding the intent of this whole thread? Anyway, I've said my peace so my posting on this thread has come to an end. Maybe next time a thread with this topic will actually accomplish something.

nurse said:

I wouldn't hold your breath!

nurse said:

Well dayum Sos... you keep say you can't have it both ways... yet folks should be allowed to express their feelings... at the same time folks can't criticize the ideas for the sake of someones elses feelings. Yeah... folks are going to start questioning the real intent behind this thread with the underlying contradictions.

Anywho, I think the bottom line is what Romera and Anx said earlier in this thread. That mods should be watching for the pattern of offending users and offending contexts (i.e. miguelbulcao a.k.a Mike Mantronik) On the other hand a serious thread on the word was started by Ripher2shreds and had the potential to make for great discussion but it was ruined by old miguel. No, the N-word is not at the top o' the list of politically correct words.

But, I think as adults with discriminating tastes, we should know when and how to be careful with it.

BSK3601 said:

what does making assumptions and judging me have to do with expressing their own opinion on the use of the n-word on this thread?

see, thats how most of the problem threads on this site get all hectic on us. people jump the shark from debating the actual topic to taking/making things personal and questioning folks views.

the fact of the matter is, this thread has helped me greatly in figuring out whats going wrong in the p&r forum. i had recieved a couple orgnotes from concerned members and this thread has helped me address the situation. and address it without banning folks.

so once again, if someone really wants to know more information on what and why im doing what im doing, just ask. im right here. and i must say, i think i am the most open mods here. if this was a prince forum question thread it would be locked or hidden yet im the one who created this.





at anyrate, if you want to review the threads were folks had issue, go right ahead:

http://www.prince.org/msg/105/193169
http://www.prince.org/msg/105/193417

sosgemini said:

Anx said:

well, its true. and im not saying that as a diss to the other mods. they have the right manage their business the best way they feel fit. and they do it, and they do it well...

i just happen to prefer doing things a lil more open...and i encourage folks to share their perspectives on mod'ing with me, in this forum...as long as it's constructive...

i hope that didn't read like i was dissing the other mods...that wasnt my intention...


clarityedit...
[Edited 7/5/06 12:21pm]

many think it..

some use it..

some mask it with other words..

i say don't ban it. let those who believe in it use it. let their true feelings be revealed and people can form their own opinions about those who use that word.

Rather than focus on one word, I think racist comments in general should not be tolerated. People dont always use racial slurs but thier intent is clear. Just because somebody hasnt used the N word but has said a whole heap of other shit besides, does this keep them in the clear? because it shouldnt.

LleeLlee said:

yeah, but the hippie dippie idealist in me believes that people don't walk around with a sign on their shirt that says "hi! i'm racist! and i think it's GREAT!"

and when people make racist comments on forums like this, on an online "community", sometimes i think it should be the goal of the rest of us not to simply SUPPRESS the comments, but to try to INFORM and EDUCATE those people as to why their comments are objectionable.

hard as it may be to believe, sometimes people JUST DON'T KNOW.

now, the people who DO know better...the ones who post bullshit just to troll and get people upset...those people should be disciplined appropriately, not JUST because they're posting racist comments, but because of the larger issue: they're manipulating other people's emotions for attention and their own "entertainment". that has less to do with the person at fault being a racist than it has to do with them being an insensitive, manipulative, immature ass. racism is merely the tool they're using to get their precious attention.

and then, there are people who truly are racist to the bone, and believe their feelings are righteous and true. and those people...well...i have no idea what can be done in these cases. i mean, if they're causing other people a sense of danger or discomfort with being on this site, then measures really need to be taken. maybe (uhhh, definitely?) the org is not the site for them.

then there are the people who might be working through their ignorance, and we have an opportunity to influence and inform their perceptions. which leads me to the beginning of my post.

i believe all of us, even the trolls, believe we're good people at heart. it's this perception of other people that makes me want us to have open lines of communication. any one of us can say something that may trigger something in someone else that may change them forever, maybe for the worse, but sometimes - maybe more often than we think - maybe fore the better, too.

and if it takes a well-thought out use of even "the n-word" to make someone understand something someday, then it will be a word well used. and i would rather that possibility be allowed to exist. i'm not presumptuous enough to say when or how that could or could not happen. but when we ban words, we also ban ideas. and to me, the thought of that kinda sucks.