I recently sent a CD of mine to a local record company and was wondering who here has ever been offered anything? and if so, explain the details in your contract

toejam said:

I've been offered a couple of local contracts, but in the end, they were WAAAY biased towards the label, and for me to make any money, I'd have to sell the records on my own, distribute them, do publicity/promotions, etc, and IN THE END, I would see less than a dollar per CD, AFTER the initial investment was paid off.

BOTH offers were like that, and, in reality, ALL record deals are like that. The label wants to make their initial investment BACK, and THEN make a BIG COIN off of every disc you sell after that.

"But, what if, say, I take the disc and start burning my own copies and sell those?".

ILLEGAL. That goes back to the OWN YOUR MASTERS argument. If you go through a label, MOST of the time, you won't own your masters, and any recording you do with/through that label will belong TO that label... you are considered a "work for hire" proposition, where your work, your songs, belong to the label... they hired you produce those songs. They belong to the label.

Therefore, unless you're selling a million CDs and tapes at your gigs, and out the back of your car, DO NOT sign for a label deal. Start your own label and do the work yourself.

INDIE BABY!! It's the only way.
[This message was edited Thu Feb 13 16:28:20 PST 2003 by otan]

Well, I am working on being a member of Incubator Records, a Christian record company out of Oregon. It is a very small company, and it is a business incubator for artists who "don't fit the mold" of other "pop" music artists in the mainstream. The company helps you to share your message in a more productive way and at the same times helps you get promotion and gigs. Hopefully everything will go well, and I will learn alot in the process.

I would really like to record for NPG, even as a helpful producer or writer, or even to work for Motown, which would be my second pick to NPG.

Peace,

JD

I'm pretty disillusioned about the whole "getting signed" thing. It's my understanding that it's a crock of shit designed to screw the artist. And the only real money is in touring.

Since I'm not willing to tour, away from my family, for more than a few weeks or so, I think the whole music career thing is not going to happen for me. That's quite alright with me.

But for the younger guys with no strings, I say get thee in the van and hit the highway. Or better yet, stay in school and get a real job!

I did a lot of research when these labels came to me. I contacted UNinterested labels, who had nothing to gain/lose from telling me their opinions.

I wrote them and explained my situation: local band with some level of popularity, willing to do short road trips (every other weekend, maybe) and was wanting a label that could help push the music only in my region.

Because of my unwillingness to travel, every label said I was better off doing it on my own... they don't make money unless the band is out pimping the product. And the band doesn't make money ON the product until they've moved a good huge chunk of merch.

You're better off finding one of those "1000 CDs for $999" deals. Make your own disc, fund it yourself, sell it yourself. I was able to ink a deal with a bar - we played there weekly, and they were willing to front us $2500 to pay for the recording/printing of the CDs. We'd be obligated to pay the money back by playing for a few months for free, but it looked like a good deal.

Labels aren't interested in sharing art, talent, skills. They're interested in money. It's the Music BIZ.

toejam said:

I was signed by EMI when I was 13. The other members of the band were a lot older than me though & were due to go to uni. Unfortunatly they put education first & the deal fell through.

Now, however, if any record company approaches me with a contract in mind, they can stick the fuckin thing up their arse. I might not be famous but at least I didnt sell my soul to the devil to get their. Im just not interested, the recording industry is evil in almost everyway as its centered around profit & greed, I dont want anything to do with it.

Im doing it off my own back, screw corporate record companies.

otan said:

I M ALL WITH THAT, COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER MY SELF.

I actually have one in a drawer. Signed it, recorded the tracks, then the record never materialized (problems with the master and the very small independent label).

this thread cracks me the fuck up!



yep...i'd much rather be battin' off behind my computer keyboard than getting signed

if a decent record company came near me, i'd be all over 'em like a rash! .. maybe i should get off my ass and send some stuff out

MrBliss said:

You're missing the point. Give yourSELF a record contract - start your own label with your own money, so you don't owe anyone ANYTHING. If a record company came to you with a contract, trust me, you'd HAVE a rash after three years... MOST contracts end up being tax write-offs. The label counts your act as a lost investment, and kills your career because you owe them 4 more albums, but they're not going to put any more money into you.

Therefore, ANYTHING you release belongs to them FIRST. Standard procedure.

I understand your willingness to sacrifice anything to get famous - I was the same way, and I bet most of the people in here are/were the same way. Think of it as selling your soul to the devil - yeah, he'd give you ANYTHING you want for it, but in the end, you always gotta pay.

otan said:

so if a major label came to you with a 3 album deal... you'd say "no thankyou, that would be selling out"? ... me thinks not

If I could do a job that was basically my personal hobby (music) and get paid more than 27,300 dollars a year (that I am making now at my regular job) then I say, why not do it? I mean, the most that would happen is that I may not own some things and I may not get to do everything that I want to do, but I am feeding my family better and I am having much more fun doing it!

Peace,

JD

thecloud9mission said:

bullshit

MrBliss said:

Na truth, Ive had 3 offers since my website went online & have declined them all. Im metaphorically not gonna sell my soul & lower the standards of the world any further

thecloud9mission said:

who were the offers from?

yeh cloud...i'd be interested in this, who were they from?

MrBliss said:

I'd be jazzed, excited, whatever, but No, I wouldn't sign it. Not if they offered a standard recording contract. And labels aren't going to offer an unknown/new artist anything OTHER than a standard recording contract.

And you WONT be making any money from your first two albums. You'll GET money, but it'll be a loan, and you'll have to pay it back from sales of your album. ANY money they dangle in front of you is a LOAN.

A LOAN. And they will get their money back, or make damn sure you won't be making any money as a musician anywhere else UNTIL they get their money back. If you're one of the 1 in a million artists that DO have a successful career of more than three major hit albums, then, yeah, you'll start making money. (Can you NAME 5 artists that were new 5 years ago, that have had 3 successful albums?)

In the beginning, you're MUCH better off doing it yourself, building up a gigantic amazing following of hundreds of thousands of people BEFORE you sign a deal with a major label. -- Like Dave Matthews.

And it's NOT a case of selling out. It's a case of being stupid and uneducated about the music business - and labels, and all their lawyers, are COUNTING on you to be stupid.

Have not been following the recent debates from artists like Don Henley, Courteney Love, and PRINCE? Labels will rape you. They want money. They'll make you a star, but they wont make you rich.

So sure, if you don't mind appearing on "Where are they now?" in 5 years, and playing that one hit song in little pubs to old ladies in stonewashed jeans, until you're 65, hey, go ahead, sign away.

I write for a national music magazine here in the US, (Performer magazine) I've done my research on this stuff... I'm not just repeating what I heard from a buddy of mine at the bar.
[This message was edited Sun Feb 23 11:18:24 PST 2003 by otan]

OTAN

Preach it, brother!!!

MrBliss said:

Greenshute Managment
1970 records
Some dude claiming to be from sony though I dont believe its genuine hence why I didnt reply.

It wasnt so much the deal they were offering but more that they wanted to make money specifically from The Cloud9 Mission & the solo songs on there. The whole idea of The Cloud9 Mission is that its me doing it on my own with no outside help. I wanna see how far I can take it & how many people I can reach

otan said:[quote]

MrBliss said:

Yeah I agree, if they offered a deal that was designed to benefit the artist & the record company equally then cool but its the real cost of fame & fortune that I have realised before its too late.

thecloud9mission said:

ok... that's 1 offer from someone you say wasn't even legit....and the other two offers?

.
[This message was edited Sun Feb 23 17:01:26 PST 2003 by MrBliss]

MrBliss said:

Greenshute managment & 1970 records. I didnt say sony wernt legit, I said I didnt know for sure. Why the spanish inquisition?
[This message was edited Sun Feb 23 19:00:03 PST 2003 by thecloud9mission]

thecloud9mission said:

i misread your post...sorry...

MrBliss said:

dat cool

Listen to Otan, he knows what he's talking about. just watch any of those vh1 "behind the music" shows and you'll see the musicians get jacked every time.

Check it out this way: if you're trying to make money on your own as a musician, you'll be:

writing some slammin tracks, making cds, playing a bunch of gigs, promoting your CD any way you can. You get to keep the money after you make back your initial investment. Get signed to a label and you'll be:

writing some slammin tracks, making cds, playing a bunch of gigs and promoting your cd any way you can. This time, THEY keep most of the money. Or a worse scenario, you owe them. For promotion. For studio time. For "miscellaneous expenses." Some top brass label dude who can't play a lick on a kazoo is buying a lexus while you can't afford a geo metro. NOT COOL.

worse still, the book industry. It's all that the music industry is cracked up to be and WORSE and you make even less money.

concordance said:

Otan & Concordance, thanks for the knowledgeable advice. I passed it on to a good friend of mine - a very talented (struggling) musician. Also, I sure hate to hear that about the book industry -- I just recently decided to pursue a dream of mine: to seriously start writing a book. Well, I'll go ahead and start and pray that it works out well -- ya gotta follow your dreams! Thanks.

the problem with music
by steve albini

Whenever I talk to a band who are about to sign with a major label, I always end up thinking of them in a particular context. I imagine a trench, about four feet wide and five feet deep, maybe sixty yards long, filled with runny, decaying shit. I imagine these people, some of them good friends, some of them barely acquaintances, at one end of this trench. I also imagine a faceless industry lackey at the other end, holding a fountain pen and a contract waiting to be signed.

Nobody can see what's printed on the contract. It's too far away, and besides, the shit stench is making everybody's eyes water. The lackey shouts to everybody that the first one to swim the trench gets to sign the contract. Everybody dives in the trench and they struggle furiously to get to the other end. Two people arrive simultaneously and begin wrestling furiously, clawing each other and dunking each other under the shit. Eventually, one of them capitulates, and there's only one contestant left. He reaches for the pen, but the Lackey says, "Actually, I think you need a little more development. Swim it again, please. Backstroke."

And he does, of course.

I. A&R Scouts


There are several reasons A&R scouts are always young. The explanation usually is that the scout will be "hip" to the current musical "scene." A more important reason is that the bands will intuitively trust someone they think is a peer, and who speaks fondly of the same formative rock and roll experiences.

The A&R person is the first person to make contact with the band, and as such is the first person to promise them the moon. Who better to promise them the moon than an idealistic young turk who expects to be calling the shots in a few years, and who has had no previous experience with a big record company. Hell, he's as naive as the band he's duping. When he tells them no one will interfere in their creative process, he probably even believes it.

When he sits down with the band for the first time, over a plate of angel hair pasta, he can tell them with all sincerity that when they sign with company X, they're really signing with him and he's on their side.

By now all rock bands are wise enough to be suspicious of music industry scum. There is a pervasive caricature in popular culture of a portly, middle aged ex-hipster talking a mile-a-minute, using outdated jargon and calling everybody "baby." After meeting "their" A&R guy, the band will say to themselves and everyone else, "He's not like a record company guy at all! He's like one of us." And they will be right. That's one of the reasons he was hired.

These A&R guys are not allowed to write contracts. What they do is present the band with a letter of intent, or "deal memo," which loosely states some terms, and affirms that the band will sign with the label once a contract has been agreed on.

The spookiest thing about this harmless sounding little "memo," is that it is, for all legal purposes, a binding document. That is, once the band sign it, they are under obligation to conclude a deal with the label. If the label presents them with a contract that the band don't want to sign, all the label has to do is wait. There are a hundred other bands willing to sign the exact same contract, so the label is in a position of strength.

These letters never have any term of expiration, so the band remain bound by the deal memo until a contract is signed, no matter how long that takes. The band cannot sign to another label or even put out its own material unless they are released from their agreement, which never happens. Make no mistake about it: once a band has signed a letter of intent, they will either eventually sign a contract that suits the label or they will be destroyed.

One of my favorite bands was held hostage for the better part of two years by a slick young "He's not like a label guy at all,' A&R rep, on the basis of such a deal memo. He had failed to come through on any of his promises (something he did with similar effect to another well-known band), and so the band wanted out. Another label expressed interest, but when the A&R man was asked to release the band, he said he would need money or points, or possibly both, before he would consider it.

The new label was afraid the price would be too dear, and they said no thanks. On the cusp of making their signature album, an excellent band, humiliated, broke up from the stress and the many months of inactivity.

II. There's This Band

There's this band. They're pretty ordinary, but they're also pretty good, so they've attracted some attention. They're signed to a moderate-sized "independent" label owned by a distribution company, and they have another two albums owed to the label.

They're a little ambitious. They'd like to get signed by a major label so they can have some security—you know, get some good equipment, tour in a proper tour bus—nothing fancy, just a little reward for all the hard work.

To that end, they got a manager. He knows some of the label guys, and he can shop their next project to all the right people. He takes his cut, sure, but it's only 15%, and if he can get them signed then it's money well spent. Anyway, it doesn't cost them any thing if it doesn't work. 15% of nothing isn't much!

One day an A&R scout calls them, says he's "been following them for a while now," and when their manager mentioned them to him, it just "clicked." Would they like to meet with him about the possibility of working out a deal with his label? Wow. Big Break time.

They meet the guy, and y'know what—he's not what they expected from a label guy. He's young and dresses pretty much like the band does. He knows all their favorite bands. He's like one of them. He tells them he wants to go to bat for them, to try to get them everything they want. He says anything is possible with the right attitude. They conclude the evening by taking home a copy of a deal memo they wrote out and signed on the spot.

The A&R guy was full of great ideas, even talked about using a big name producer. Butch Vig is out of the question—he wants 100 g's and three points, but they can get Don Fleming for $30,000 plus three points. Even that's a little steep, so maybe they'll go with that guy who used to be in David Letterman's band. He only wants three points. Or they can have just anybody record it [like Warton Tiers, maybe—cost you 5 or 10 grand] and have Andy Wallace remix it for 4 grand a track plus 2 points. It was a lot to think about.

Well, they like this guy and they trust him. Besides, they already signed the deal memo. He must have been serious about wanting them to sign. They break the news to their current label, and the label manager says he wants them to succeed, so they have his blessing. He will need to be compensated, of course, for the remaining albums left on their contract, but he'll work it out with the label himself. Sub Pop made millions from selling off Nirvana, and Twin Tone hasn't done bad either: 50 grand for the Babes and 60 grand for the Poster Children—without having to sell a single additional record. It'll be something modest. The new label doesn't mind, so long as it's recoupable out of royalties.

Well, they get the final contract, and it's not quite what they expected. They figure it's better to be safe than sorry and they turn it over to a lawyer—one who says he's experienced in entertainment law—and he hammers out a few bugs. They're still not sure about it, but the lawyer says he's seen a lot of contracts, and theirs is pretty good. They'll be getting a great royalty: 13% [less a 10% packaging deduction]. Wasn't it Buffalo Tom that were only getting 12% less 10? Whatever.

The old label only wants 50 grand, and no points. Hell, Sub Pop got 3 points when they let Nirvana go. They're signed for four years, with options on each year, for a total of over a million dollars! That's a lot of money in any man's English. The first year's advance alone is $250,000. Just think about it, a quarter-million, just for being in a rock band!

Their manager thinks it's a great deal, especially the large advance. Besides, he knows a publishing company that will take the band on if they get signed, and even give them an advance of 20 grand, so they'll be making that money too. The manager says publishing is pretty mysterious, and nobody really knows where all the money comes from, but the lawyer can look that contract over too. Hell, it's free money.

Their booking agent is excited about the band signing to a major. He says they can maybe average $1,000 or $2,000 a night from now on. That's enough to justify a five week tour, and with tour support, they can use a proper crew, buy some good equipment and even get a tour bus! Buses are pretty expensive, but if you figure in the price of a hotel room for everybody in the band and crew, they're actually about the same cost. Some bands (like Therapy? and Sloan and Stereolab) use buses on their tours even when they're getting paid only a couple hundred bucks a night, and this tour should earn at least a grand or two every night. It'll be worth it. The band will be more comfortable and will play better.

The agent says a band on a major label can get a merchandising company to pay them an advance on t-shirt sales! Ridiculous! There's a gold mine here! The lawyer should look over the merchandising contract, just to be safe.

They get drunk at the signing party. Polaroids are taken and everybody looks thrilled. The label picked them up in a limo.

They decided to go with the producer who used to be in Letterman's band. He had these technicians come in and tune the drums for them and tweak their amps and guitars. He had a guy bring in a slew of expensive old vintage microphones. Boy, were they "warm." He even had a guy come in and check the phase of all the equipment in the control room! Boy, was he professional. He used a bunch of equipment on them and by the end of it, they all agreed that it sounded very "punchy," yet "warm."

All that hard work paid off. With the help of a video, the album went like hotcakes! They sold a quarter million copies!

Here is the math that will explain just how fucked they are:

These figures are representative of amounts that appear in record contracts daily. There's no need to skew the figures to make the scenario look bad, since real-life examples more than abound. Income is underlined, expenses are not.


Advance: $250,000
Manager's cut: $37,500
Legal fees: $10,000
Recording Budget: $150,000
Producer's advance: $50,000
Studio fee: $52,500
Drum, Amp, Mic and Phase "Doctors": $3,000
Recording tape: $8,000
Equipment rental: $5,000
Cartage and Transportation: $5,000
Lodgings while in studio: $10,000
Catering: $3,000
Mastering: $10,000
Tape copies, reference CDs, shipping tapes, misc expenses: $2,000

Video budget: $30,000
Cameras: $8,000
Crew: $5,000
Processing and transfers: $3,000
Offline: $2,000
Online editing: $3,000
Catering: $1,000
Stage and construction: $3,000
Copies, couriers, transportation: $2,000
Director's fee: $3,000

Album Artwork: $5,000
Promotional photo shoot and duplication: $2,000

Band fund: $15,000
New fancy professional drum kit: $5,000
New fancy professional guitars (2): $3,000
New fancy professional guitar amp rigs (2): $4,000
New fancy potato-shaped bass guitar: $1,000
New fancy rack of lights bass amp: $1,000
Rehearsal space rental: $500
Big blowout party for their friends: $500

Tour expense (5 weeks): $50,875
Bus: $25,000
Crew (3): $7,500
Food and per diems: $7,875
Fuel: $3,000
Consumable supplies: $3,500
Wardrobe: $1,000
Promotion: $3,000

Tour gross income: $50,000
Agent s cut: $7,500
Manager's cut: $7,500

Merchandising advance: $20,000
Manager's cut: $3,000
Lawyer's fee: $1,000

Publishing advance: $20,000
Manager's cut: $3,000
Lawyer's fee: $1,000

Record sales: 250,000 @ $12 = $3,000,000 gross retail revenue Royalty (13% of 90% of retail): $351,000
Less advance: $250,000
Producer's points: (3% less $50,000 advance) $40,000
Promotional budget: $25,000
Recoupable buyout from previous label: $50,000
Net royalty: (-$14,000)

Record company income:
Record wholesale price $6.50 x 250,000 = $1,625,000 gross income
Artist Royalties: $351,000
Deficit from royalties: $14,000
Manufacturing, packaging and distribution @ $2.20 per record: $550,000
Gross profit: $710,000

The Balance Sheet: This is how much each player got paid at the end of the game.

Record company: $710,000
Producer: $90,000
Manager: $51,000
Studio: $52,500
Previous label: $50,000
Agent: $7,500
Lawyer: $12,000
Band member net income each: $4,031.25





The band is now 1/4 of the way through its contract, has made the music industry more than 3 millon dollars richer, but is in the hole $14,000 on royalties. The band members have each earned about 1/3 as much as they would working at a 7-11, but they got to ride in a tour bus for a month.

The next album will be about the same, except that the record company will insist they spend more time and money on it. Since the previous one never "recouped," the band will have no leverage, and will oblige.

The next tour will be about the same, except the merchandising advance will have already been paid, and the band, strangely enough, won't have earned any royalties from their t-shirts yet. Maybe the t-shirt guys have figured out how to count money like record company guys.

Some of your friends are probably already this fucked.


recoup the edit
[This message was edited Wed Feb 26 19:16:26 PST 2003 by theSpark]

I sometimes do voices for cartoons in dutch, man you don't know what kind of extensive contract I have to sign (did some for warner bros ). I loose all the rights to my voice, they can use it for anything and it actually feels like selling my soul. But then again, it pays well and it is fun to do.

theSpark... ...what a scary scenario...sounds about right...and people trip on Prince's stance on the whole industry. Tsk-tsk!

I was in a band that got signed to a huge Capital/EMI branch... we got an album and tour support out if it for at least 2 years then they dropped us. Turns out we were just another tax-write-off scheme for them. It was kinda fun while it lasted though. It made me enjoy the movie "Spinal Tap" alot more.