The DownLoad Society Presents....

Another Angel
b/w Burning UP

written while under the violet light of the blue moon.

http://www.angelfire.com/...mfirstborn

DownLoad While U Are Still Free

- papercrayons
@ The DownLoad Society
[This message was edited Thu Feb 27 12:33:30 PST 2003 by papercrayon]

y u actin like u dont know me?

Anyway, i'll post when i hear it..

Ur friend Izaiah

paisleypark4 said:[quote]y u actin like u dont know me?

Anyway, i'll post when i hear it..


2 deny you would b a fate far worse than being alone.
there is much love 4 you in me.

your friend in more ways than one.

- dreamfirstborn, jew
using papercrayons

Hey DFBJ, I like your song "Burnin' Up". It will be a very unique song to add to the NFO project, and I think it adds a funky abstract sound to the mix. Thanks for your song! Be sure to keep it on your site until everyone else gets done so that we can add it to the final NFO CD.

Peace,
JD

JDODSON said:

I agree, I really like that one, however, might there be a problem with copyright, since the "Burning Up" part is essentially taken from Madonna's song? I really like the music, though. Good beat, and I dig that weird shit.

damn man i downloaded it on my computer, took abot 17 minutes, now i gotta do it again got dammmit!

In regards to your inquiry, Vina, I did some research on that this morning, and as long as he doesn't use all lyrics and the same arrangement, he is ok with using "Burnin' Up" as the title and the chorus. For example, I can use "Flashlight" as a song title and I could say "flashlight, redlight, neon light, stoplight" different places in the song, as long as I didn't start breaking out with the whole original song, and as long as the whole song did not resemble the original song's overall theme.


Peace,
JD
[This message was edited Mon Mar 3 13:29:15 PST 2003 by JDODSON]

JDODSON said:

That's awesome! Wow, I could probably come up with tons of songs that way!!! Great info, thanks for doing the research.

I dunno about that Vina -

If a judge can listen to one song, and then listen to the song that is similar to the first, and say "YES, this one is LIFTED from THAT one" then you're in violation of the copyright laws.

2 examples that come to mind immediately:

"Ice Ice Baby" by Vanilla Ice and "Can't Touch This" by Mc Hammer. They borrowed a total of 9 notes from the previous songs. Dumbass Ice even went to far as to add an extra note to it, and then declare that it's his.

He lost the suit. As did MC Hammer.

Another example would be George Harrison's song, "My Sweet Lord" which is a direct life of "He's So Fine" by some old motown girl group (the Chiffons? I forget).

Again, a single grace note was changed. George didn't know anything about the original song, but his keyboardist, Billy Preston DID know about the previous song and they lost the lawsuit.

In cases where you can try to prove that you never heard of the original song, or your song and theirs appear to be purely coincidental: it is up to the judge to decide how the two songs came in to being - like, if you and another mp3.com musician come up with a hook line that's very similar but different enough to have been equally come upon without hearing the other, then that's one thing.

Take the phrase: One In A Million. You can say the phrase and it has a pattern to it already. So if you write an uptempo song that somehow has a similar PATTERN as the Larry Graham song, then maybe it's questionable, but the fact that the tempo and/or melody lines are completely different, THAT would lead the judge to probably determine that you wrote your song independent of the Larry Graham song.

So, yeah, I would strongly advise AGAINST going through your catalog of favorite songs and rewriting the lyrics.

"BUT," you might ask, "What about Wierd Al Yankovic?"

THAT is the loophole.

If your song is a SATIRIZATION of the original song, then it isn't considered copyright infringement. The closest call in a case like that is 2LiveCrew's version of "Pretty Woman", based (LOOSELY) around Roy Orbison's song of the same name. They did exactly what you're talking about, taking a song and just changing the lyrics. Roy sued them, and in the end, I think they were able to get out of it by saying their song was a satirization of his.

Yup. Wrote an article about this too.
[This message was edited Mon Mar 3 12:31:02 PST 2003 by otan]

VinaBlue said:

Why would you want to do that anyway?

otan said:

To reply to this, Beau, Hammer and Ice were completely guilty of using the music of Queen and Rick James. All that papercrayon used was a phrase, which has no similarity when combined with the rhythm and message of his song (compared to Madonna's). Papercrayon's issue is just like your Larry Graham analogy. And, yes, I would strongly advise against using actual song titles or phrases from other songs. If you do it originally, and had no intent to copy another artist, then everything should be ok.


Peace,
JD

Vina, and Otan, I just edited my post up there to give a bit more clarity on what I learned.

Peace,
JD

To put my words in perspective, let me say that I have always tried to be original, and some would say, to an obsessive point. I have thought about using a line and running with it, in another direction, pretty much the way papercrayon did. When I heard his song, I did say, "Hey?! What about the copyright law?".

Hey Jupiter by Tori Amos has the same chord structure as Purple Rain. I've always wondered if she was jamming on Purple Rain, and then wrote Hey Jupiter. A friend and I were rehearsing Hey Jupiter once and he went, "Hey, this is Purple Rain!". We found that we could go back and fourth between the songs and mix them up, which was cool. Also, both songs have a "oooh" part at the end, and when Tori covered Purple Rain, she sang the "oooh" part from Hey Jupiter.

So this is probably the way I would go too, start out using something for inspiration, then removing it once the song can stand on its own.

VinaBlue said:

Cool, what album is Hey Jupiter on? I only have Choirgirl and Scarlet's walk.

Oh, and as far as Ice and Hammer go...

If you took away the part they copied from someone else, there isn't that much more there. I would NEVER do that. Makes me sick. Pisses me off. Remember that one song by some rapper, that used the music from "Why You Treat Me So Bad" and just rapped over it? That annoyed the heck out of me. And f*&%$*@$ Nas, taking that Sting lick from Shape of My Heart, man, that pissed me off too. Don't get me started on Puffy...

VinaBlue said:

But hey - all those original artists okayed the use of those samples on Puffy's tribue records. I love how he credits himself as a songwriter.

Writer my ass!!

i will tell the story of this experience tommorrow.



-dreamfirstborn, jew
using papercrayons
@ the download society

Here is an important link-

http://www.copyright.gov/...circ01.pdf

It states that short phrases, titles, and names are not protected under copyright law, and are included in "fair use" standards.


Peace,
JD

That's true JD, but when you attach the short phrase to a melody line, you're making the fingerprint easier to read. I thought the original comment was asking if it was safe to use the "I'm burning up" line, with the melody as well, from the Madonna song...

THAT I would recommend against. But I wasn't saying that any of us intentionally do that - the worst thing in the world is to come up with a great hook line, build a song, and then find out it's from a song you heard three years ago off of your big sister's record collection, or something like that - it's a song you KNOW you heard, only AFTER you heard it again... when you first come up with the idea, you're thinking "THIS IS THE JAM! I'M BRILLIANT!!!" only to find out, no, Annie Lennox was brilliant...

sigh...

edit:

And JD - I gotta know - what's your avatar from?
[This message was edited Mon Mar 3 14:39:03 PST 2003 by otan]

theSpark said:

It's on Boys For Pele. That is my second favorite album by her, (Choirgirl is #1). Boys for Pele is a lot like Scarlet's Walk, in that it goes back to the more acoustic sound. It has more of a stripped down, bluesy feel, and on some songs she jams on the harpsichord!!! It's the album that made me a Tori fan.

otan said:

God, I know. I still can't get over the time Sting got on stage with Puffy to sing his part.

otan said:

I forget where I got it from- some Clintonesque webpage somewhere. And I understand what you are saying. You are saying "what is the point in even using another's phrase or lyric snapshot in the first place?". I usually don't do that. Sometime, I will get away in a bassline and say something like "I need to be the mayor so I can change some things around here" or something like that- but I never use whole song lyric hooks. We can put papercrayon's song on the CD, but we will have to put a disclaimer on there saying that he is responsible for it, not the rest of us org musicians.


Peace,
JD

THis song is really tight. And ur putting ur FUNK back!!! It kinda got lost there 4 a while, but uh oh! What's goin on? Did I hear them bangin drumz!!!??? Uh oh!!! Damn I b jealous. I wish i made this track man!

I liked ur's better than hers. Everytime I hear Burning Up about 2 come on my record player, i always skip it! lol!

Okay oh hell no. I just listened to the song.

This is TOTALLY a lawsuit waiting to happen. And don't think Madonna won't come knocking.

I think Otan is right you guys, which is why I originally said something. The thing is, that was a hit and it's a VERY recognizable part of the song. It is the hook. So, even though you did the research J, I'd rather it not be on the cd, since we have to put a disclaimer and we all might be responsible. Let's just avoid that mess.

I'm scurred.
[This message was edited Mon Mar 3 15:18:37 PST 2003 by VinaBlue]

papercrayon said:

Another Angel was written 2 weeks ago, and recorded at the now famous 6/8 studios in New York City, while being alone under neath this tree one night after the intense break up of who i feel now is the love of my life. we had been together for the past year and a half. we met 2 days after 911 and in someways we took care of each other during that time, and it was during that time that this person saved my life. Our Relationship is defined in the lyrics of PaperCrayons: The Life in Time of HRH Gregory Alive. All those songs were written 4 this person. with the execption of "Prince is Dead"... which was originally titled "Jew is Dead" but was change while in the studio during the recording process of that song. MY love 2 You Jesse Always.

anyways thats the story of this experience in a nut shell.

DreamFirstBorn, Jew
using PaperCrayons
@ The DownLoad Society
[This message was edited Fri Mar 7 9:11:18 PST 2003 by papercrayon]