Am just intrigued as to how common modal chord progressions and modal soloing is in Prince's work... if any of you could name some examples of songs that'd be great.

I've been studying modes for some time now and want to see how my favourite artists incorporate it into their work.

I think you'll find most of Prince's stuff is pentatonic based stuff and Dorian mode.

Cool.

Do you have any advice on how to improve my soloing using the pentatonic scales? Are there any books you could recommend?

Also, what about Prince's chord progressions? Does he use modal progressions often? How do you tell the difference between a modal progression and a non-modal progression?

I dont understand what a "modal progression" is, never heard that phrase before....ill try and put some easier solo's for you up on the guitar forum and then you'll be able to see that the notes are usually based on pentatonic in prince's music....if you have any in particular in mind then post it in "requests"

He isn't a modal player, He just sticks with pentatonic in a regular dorian mode

daf1999 said:

That'd be great. I'm just starting out trying to solo, so I'm kinda new to it... I'd love to give I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man or Shhhh a try....

Any help is much appreciated.

I see these type questions from a lot of younger players and my answer/suggestion is always the same - turn off the computer, sit down with a solo you want to learn and dissect that baby until you've played it inside and out. You might not have it down, note-for-note, but the results (ear-training, developing your own approach to playing, seeing how solos are constructed) are invaluable.

I still remember the feeling I got when I finally "got" a solo (in Prince's "Automatic"). It opened up a whole new world for me! I had a cassette (I know - I'm ancient) that I labeled "ear training". I would tape whatever caught my fancy and try to learn it. That's when everything started to come together and I started to understand music. And it's an ongoing thing - there's always something new to learn. That's the cool thing about music!

As an aside, I think the time a lot of guitar players put into posting youtube videos of themselves playing just-learned renditions of songs (always with the exhortation to commenters to "please be nice") could be better spent practicing...

Figuring out things by ear is a time-tested tradition. Tabs and internet forums are cool, but nothing replaces good 'ol hard work (fun hard work ). Time and hands-on practice - to me, those are the two main things. Rome wasn't built in a day. Neither are guitar players



Good luck with your playing!!!

JesseDezz said:

Well said...
The only reason i look for tabs is because i'm lazy...
but when i can't find one i need
gotta do it the old fashion way... and learning your own way is better because sometimes you do stuff that the original piece never did,
stuff thats all you
you can create entirely diifferent rendiitions of songs that way, and sometimes an entirely different song.

Hey Matty - I love students like you, those that ask a lot of questions!

Since everyone has hammered the "Prince doesn't play modes" point, I'll not waste any time there.

If you want to check out some fantastic examples of modal playing, check out any of Miles Davis' albums from the mid-50's - early 60's. He was one of the first jazz guys that really brought modal playing to the masses. Milestones and Kind of Blue are great additions to your CD collection if you do not already have them. And both have great study opportunities to dig into modal playing (So What, Flamenco Sketches).

As a general rule of thumb, pop, rock, R&B, blues, ballads - the styles Prince covers so well, are not modal based. If you want to hear modal bases music, you have to think more jazz and fusion (again, rule of thumb).

Finally, why don't you try to work out the solo for "I could never take the place of your man"? It is straight forward (C major / A minor pentatonic), and up until the fast run near the end, you deal with nothing faster than 8th notes.

Here's a little taste to get you started

2:43 - 2:49

E--13(bu)15~~~~15~~~15(rb)13-12-13~~-12-13~~~12-13~~~-----
B-----
G-----

littlerockjams said:

On the subject, for a guitary example, Steve Vai and Joe Satriani use a lot of modes. Here's a couple of really useful lessons from Satriani on the use of modes:

http://www.youtube.com/wa...WHKeC4IEgA

http://www.youtube.com/wa...oGQ9yHOyZQ

Satch is a great one to study if you want to work more with modes. He has a really musical, melodic style, and you can hear the modes very clearly within that. Vai, on the other hand, is a lot more cryptic and complex, and probably better kept for when you've got your ears more tuned into modes.

Here is a great Satch lesson where he explains modes:

http://www.youtube.com/wa...WHKeC4IEgA
http://www.youtube.com/wa...re=related

Thanks for your replies.

So if Prince doesn't use modes, what does he mainly stick to in his solos? The pentatonic scales?

MattyJam said:

Pretty much, that and the majors and minors
If you want to see alot of modal work, you'll find alot in jazz

Computer Blue is played in the dorian mode though, right? I managed to figure that solo out from the dorian mode...

Does Prince ever solo using the blues scale?

MattyJam said:

Don't recall, i think even Question of you is pentatonic, same thing
Perhaps electric man?
I'm sure he probably has sometime, just don't recall at the moment

EmbattledWarrior said:

'dre

EmbattledWarrior said:

Blues scale is the minor pentatonic scale with the added passing note. Hardly any difference

daf1999 said:

Those "passing" notes are the essential blue notes vital for blues playing,
which Prince hasn't used to my knowledge

Come on folks, Prince hits blue notes almost every time he solos ...

As a matter of fact, don't we all?

Pick any solo where he does a double stop bend and he's usually bending up to the flat 5.

The solo to Strollin' that I worked on last week kicks of with a pre-bend to the flat 5 using E minor pentatonic (or E blues if you figure in the flat 5).

The Purple Rain solo kicks off with a blue note double stop bend.

I'm noticing a pattern here with a blue note bend to kick off solos.

To be a bit more serious, it would be hard to find a solo in the rock, blues/rock style that does not hit the blue note as either a passing tone to the fifth or as a double stop bend at some point in the solo. It just sounds so tasty that we all learn to do it and do it often LOL
[Edited 11/29/07 8:59am]

littlerockjams said:

but we're not talking just in passing,, cause than its just pentatonic with a few blue notes thrown in there to color it
but i mean serious blues playing utilizing the entire blues scale,
Which Prince to my knowledge has not done
maybe in live jams, but on a track, i don't recall of one

EmbattledWarrior said:

I'm not well versed in in music theory but I know the Blues when I hear it!
.
Though Prince may utilize some Blues coventions in his playing I have never found his playing particularly bluesy. That's not a knock, I'm just calling it as I hear it. LOL! Prince's Santana influence is pretty evident in some of soloing so that's where the blues-like inflections come from. IMO Carlos' playing is an amalgamation of mostly 2nd generation electric Blues stylings that he made his own. I guess the deeper blues stuff just didn't resonate with Prince enough for him to incorporate it into his style.

I'm not following you..."Serious Blues Playing utilizing the entire blues scale"

First, the "entire" blues scale is simply the minor pentatonic with the flat five added. So it becomes a six note scale rather than a five note scale.

The blue note is not a tone you ever sit on. It's used to add chromatic movement from the 4 to the 5 or tension when you play it as a double stop with another tone. All the Serious Blues playing i've heard, Albert Collins, Buddy Guy, Muddy Waters, Son House, Robert Cray, etc. etc. all use the blues scale and its' "blue note" in the same manner as I mentioned in the Prince tracks ... double stop bends and movement between the 4 and 5.

Hip me to some tracks you're referring to where they use the blue note differently.
[Edited 11/29/07 13:30pm]

kstrat said:

Exactly
His style is like Santana, Santana likes to make frankenscales, and switches from Pentatonic to aeolian minor, to blues,
I've scene prince do this alot

But back to little rock?
Are you saying Prince plays like Muddy and the gang?
cause if you're saying this you are sadly mistaken...

Those 5 flats, make up the blues scale, they make up the difference between pentatonic and blues
Now your theoretically saying that technically the pentonic isn't really being used because of the utilization of some coloured blue notes.
Theirs a difference between Muddy Waters first position blues playing , when he intentionally hits the blue notes to make the song bluesy
whereas Prince playing the pentatonic and stumbling, or bending onto a blue note.
I don't know about you, but when i play in pentatonic, i play in pentatonic, and when i play in blues i play in blues.
If i want to get fancy i mix them both, or get really chromatic by adding a major or minor scale
but still just because the scales can be mixed, doesn't mean there isn't a big difference between them...
Blues scale was created for blues playing over blues progressions
There is a difference between playing intentionally muddy water blues,
then playing pentatonic with a blue note played in passing

The original question was "does prince ever solo using the blues scale" not "does prince play the blues using the blues scale?".

You don't have to play the blues scale exclusively over a blues. As I mentioned in previous posts, the blue note - that note that makes a minor pentatonic the blues scale, is used often by prince - so therefore he "does" use the blues scale when soloing. Again, I'm not saying he's playing the blues ala Muddy but that he was using the tones in the blues scale to solo (i.e. Strollin and Purple Rain examples. If you want more, I'll listen to his rock or jazzier tunes to give a few more examples).

Now to your "sadly mistaken" comment ... I did not say Prince played muddy. I mentioned Muddy and the others when you brought up "Serious Blues Playing" and how those cats played with the blues scale. I was alluding to the fact that over a blues, you would use the tones in a similar manner as you would when you play a rock solo. So, when someone like Albert Collins hits that blue note in a bend, you get the same effect when playing a rock solo.

For an example of prince playing the blues, how about Undertaker, Blues in C, Peach?

Learn the song computer blue for some fun lick learning.....I think that's one of my favorite prince solos of all time.

I'm with littlerockjams on this one. Prince adds the "blues note" quite a lot in solos, especially live solos. So if this note is added in a solo, even if its only in bending up to it, then surely that makes it the blues scale?
Although saying that, I don't think that playing the notes in the blues scale makes for a blues solo...blues is more about feeling. Listen to Alphabet street blues, 12:01 from musicology tour, the ride, and many many more...Prince can definitely play good blues! I'm often surprised by how many of his songs follow the I-IV-V formula.

BTW, I think the biggest mistake a beginner guitar player regularly makes when attempting to play blues is a) playing at the same volume throughout a solo and b) all notes having the same time value (as if playing a scale).

But what do I know!

daf1999 said:

yah but saying that states that theoretically the pentatonic scale doesn't exist
and is not being used. That it's always the blues scale.
and your right blues is a feeling, but its also a style of playing.

And theres not a rock guitarist alive that doesn't know the blues scale, so i wasn't saying prince doesn't know the scale, i said he seldomly uses it, only for jam sessions.
What i had a problem with is that cats don't acknowledge the difference between the two scales as if the 5 flat note doesn't make a difference
saying something like that demeans the logic of musical theory
there is only a 2 note difference between a major scale and a harmonic minor
but that two note difference, can cause alot of tonality changes
and distinguishes the fact that they're two different scales.
So it doesn't matter the small differences
c'mon now

Clarity edit
[Edited 11/30/07 3:26am]

EmbattledWarrior said:

what do you mean by 5 note difference?
The only difference between the minor pentatonic and blues scale is the added flat 5. So there is only one note difference between them no? (and even then, its not a different note but an added note)

daf1999 said:

Don't mind me i haven't slept in a few days, got a tad jumbled in my thinking, i'll edit the post
[Edited 11/30/07 3:27am]