ecnirp98 said:

so U got 23 drinks in 2 hours???
lol...i just got 4 alcoholic beverages....1 welcome drink n 3 tokens on the wristband....

i had 2 pay 4 the rest of my drinks....ur a lucky sod....

WOLFY

Christ, I didn't realise what I was opening when I implied that you were taking the piss re tickets sales chris1bmf! Magnificent! Carry on.....
[Edited 10/1/07 16:00pm]

gazzlornie said:

I happen to quite like Prince and someone recently made me aware of this website so I joined, probably the same reason most people are here

As for companies I have done work for over the years, I have worked for more bands than you can shake a stick at as well as companies, promoters etc

The threads I have commented on are ones where I have some first hand knowledge or actual experience

As for the law, I obtained a legal qualification in 1996, a minor one I hasten to add, but have plenty of practical experience of applying it within the music industry

I regularly work with Trading Standards and the Police both in the UK and europe

I think that gives me some lattitude to quote the law accurately

I've read quite a few threads on here but chosen not to comment as I have nothing constructive to say

P.S. no idea who stole the missing signs but bloody good luck to them

irishwolfhound said:

that was between 4 of us !!! so was 32 vouchers in total +4 welcome drinks, 4*3 vouchers + 20 from Maxine, we started on the wine/beer but then had to go onto vodka, then a final round of champers, was the champers where we got the last 6 vouchers from Maxine at 20:20 as we were trying to work out how many vouchers we needed for 4 glasses of champers, she thought our drunken calculations were amusing, so she gave us enough vouchers to get champers each, a fitting send off to VIP we figured !!!

My wife could see 2 Prince's on stage for first 30 minutes, so she thought it was a great value concert
[Edited 10/1/07 16:16pm]

ecnirp98 said:

More drunk fools that's just what we need at concerts. Well done keep up the Brit traditions.

Markland said:

LOL.. Markland.. I'm not trying to start a flame war or escalate an already silly situation..
but I doubt you could shake your stick at me..I've been in the same "said industry" since the late 70s..

I thought from your comments re Tees that WE might have met or crossed paths as you seemed to know the same "info" as me..!

Peace n B WiLd..

Gx
[Edited 10/2/07 2:23am]

Hey Markland I've got led zep tkts just got the notification this morning.. do you want to buy the tkts off me at £400 each or shall I e bay them....

chris1bmf said:

chris .. better watch out what you do with those Zep Tix.. Messrs Grant/Goldsmith will be after you with a VERY BIG STICK..!!

Gx

gazzlornie said:

ohh sounds a bit weird!.. just reaing the e mail.. absolutley no chance of touting it!!... markland must be organising the event

I bet you had no idea what a "can of worms" you had opened when you started this thread irishwolfhound - it just keeps going on, and on, and on. Have you seen how much the Spice Girls tickets are going for on ebay - those people are the real ticket touts

AEGSuck said:

chris1bmf said:

Funny you should say that, I've just been speaking to Trading Standards Greenwich over that show this morning

I am sure any touts on the day will be guaranteed a warm welcome

I daresay Goldsmith will be taking care of eBay et al

Oh and thanks for the offer of tickets for the show, however, I have a pass for the event

chris1bmf said:

been reading this thread like a soap opera.

Though i have to say the above quote is hilarious
good one chris1bmf

Markland said:

hey! i am back- fun fun fun..
MARKLAND!


questions for you..
If the title of the ticket remains that of Aeg. What exactly does the paying punter actually, legally own when they buy a ticket?


ALSO.
security and the police were telling people they couldn't sell their spares on the day, even at face value. They were pointing to trademark laws as the reason why they couldn't. I think to just say"poor planning" is a nice way to gloss over a real problem. A crack in the system.
That of people being let down at the last minute. It's real, it happens, a LOT. This led to the situation outside the 02 where normal, non touty people were being told by security that if they asked for their money back from someone who was willing to pay for their ticket, they would have their ticket confiscated and could be arrested.

Now a couple of security there were friends of mine from waaay back and i think they are one of the best teams all in all i have seen in london,at any venue.
I still think this is an application of the law that deserves a case by case analysis rather than the blanket approach it was getting at the o2.

Your selling for 2/3 of cost idea is a nice one, on paper. And in places where the demand is there for gigs I am sure it will be of use. I am trying in my mind to apply it to smaller venues, and can't see a lot of them that aren't owned by major companies wanting to take it up..

i can also see in places where gigs are undersold, larger promoters really not wanting it to be there... what are your solutions for that?

a smaller ticket limit(appropriately enforced) will prevent bulk buying of tickets, and liquify the market.

Individually Naming tickets over a certain number (4)within a certain time period (24 hours) will limit touts and still allow people to go and buy for a group of mates. Have a group entrance for the gigs (easy at the o2) and make clear id's of all group members will be checked. Then allow people to sell back at 2/3 or even full price... and have a system whereby people without tickets can pre register for returns and i think your system will tighten up. And still allow the public the freedom they deserve.



With regard led zep, the last i heard, 1 million registered, and it was 25 million page hits... if that went up by 24million registered people.. fair enough, and no wonder the server crashed.




also, and not directed at you, the way major concert and festival tickets have gone up in price in the last 10 years is frankly shocking. Prince at 31.21 was i have to say the one thing i have seen recently that i thought fairly priced, and rest of them have been IMHO artificially inflated.

tammie said:

Tammie!!

stop stiring things and encouraging me

wish i had bought some spice girls tkts they are going for a small fortune!!

glyn said:

What people get when they buy a ticket is entry to a venue for a specific show subject to the terms and conditions of sale and entry. Thats basically it!

As for the enforcement at The O2, the reason people were told, from the conversations I heard, was that they couldn't sell tickets even for less than face value as this constituted illegal street trading. The tickets could be seized under copyright and/or trademark legislation or be rendered void under the terms and conditions of sale

There are plenty of laws under which you can enforce if you are determined and do some research

With regard to people letting others down over tickets, get the money back off the person who let you down, they cost you money, get it back from them

Simple

As for ticket resales, I think it will be interesting to see what the parliamentary sub committee recommends over what is actually practical

I think at the larger venues some form of buyback service will eventually come into effect sooner, I hope rather than later

As for the discussion over ticket limits, I have just been speaking to Ticketmaster over this very subject

I think you will find even if someone manages to buy over the normal allocation now, that the excess will be cancelled off and the card refunded

Just to make you aware of some other issues around ticket resale, three individuals, not usually ticket touts but Prince fans, all from europe had in their possession a total of £8,300 worth of tickets for the shows

Each individual had deliberately bought/acquired tickets way above what they needed and above their allocation and intended to sell the excess at a profit on site to offset their travel costs and the costs of their own tickets

When each person was stopped they stated they were selling "a ticket" because a friend had let them down

It was only when they were searched by Police that they admitted what they were doing

The excess tickets were seized and given free and gratis to Prince fans who were desperately looking for tickets on the night

The moral of that story is dont always believe someone when they are telling you its a spare ticket as a friend couldnt make it, even from another Prince fan

Thanks for making some good points and debating in such an adult manner

Its a refreshing change

Markland said:

Does that mean everyone is friends at last?

AEGSuck said:

AEGSUCK - its called enjoying yourself with friends, which I did do that night, much better than the first VIP experience I had.

To be honest, the shows I saw were fairly disappointing compared to what I am used to from Prince, so having a few drinks with friends old friends I haven't seen in a long time was the best entertainment I had.

As for drunk fools, I find people are fools if they are fools, being drunk or not does not have anything to do with it, as demonstrated by yourself.

ok, well, given the argument you make about people with 8,000 pounds of tickets, as a security guard, that's easily rectifiable- the most a person can have legitimately is 5 tickets plus one they will use. Have security Allow them to sell a maximum of 5,(having enquired of the person, how many they have) at face value, witnessed by security on the condition that they then immediately enter the venue. If they do not immediately enter, then have them searched/removed. There are some basic steps you can take that do not immediately make the person wrong, or cause you to treat them like a criminal when they might just be honestly trying to claw back money they spent from people prepared and happy to pay.

i don't think" Get the ticket money back off your friend is a legitimate blanket solution". Yes, it's fair in certain circumstances. Sometimes people buy for a group without knowing how many people exactly want to come. More people say they want to come than actually can make it, especially with ticket's being sold 3 months in advance for gigs.

I think part of the Challenge might be here that you work with and for the companies that want the legislation to be enforced to the letter, they have financial interests involved in doing that and i am coming from the perspective (in a slightly devil's advocate way, granted) of someone stuck with tickets after he's been blown out. Who is necessarily going to be resentful if he cannot do what he wants to get his money back for the tickets he has paid for... do you refund tickets after you void them? what is the precendent on that? if someone orders more than 6? do they get refunded? Or do AEG keep the money?


Also if all they own is "entry to the venue for a specific show",And the ticket remains aeg's (THIS IS NOT MENTIONED ANYWHERE IN THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS EITHER ONLINE OR ON TICKETS) what is the case if they buy 6 tickets,only one is identifiable as theirs (printed with the cardholders name) any other users is resale.. How is buying six tickets and selling them for face value to your friends different from buying six tickets, being stuck with them because a friend blew you out, (or just never said they were going to come, but you thought they might) and getting rid of them for face value on the night?

The only difference seems to be in one case the 02 will encourage the police to arrest people for street trading upon people who in good faith bought entrance to a show. This is not a fair treatment of customers imho. And, given that there are ways to see if someone is a tout,could be a waste of police time.

We can agree to disagree here if you want, since it's your job, it might be an idea to look at this issue again. There are ways of stopping actual touting (see first paragraph) without persecuting everyone, even without a returns system in place.



Ok, here's another hypothetical.(Meaning in this case an intended to be awkward question)


If you never offer the ticket,(copyrighted) but offer "entry" to someone and they pay you after they have entered the venue, is that still breaking the law? At that point street trading laws do not apply. If you only offered entry and intend to retain the ticket stub, after the concert, no actual trade in copyrighted goods has taken place at any point, only a free loan of a ticket and the sale of "entry" not the sale of a ticket. Which is what you own, since you say the ticket remains in the title of aeg(though this is not made clear anywhere.

Also, with regard that- if i print my ticketfast tickets out, are they subject to the same copyright laws? what if my printer was to break and ..only print the barcode? what if i doodle an image on the back of it? then i own the copyright to the piece of paper too. Any seizure of it would be a violation of MY rights as copyright holder. if i doodled on the piece of paper before i printed the ticket i would have first dibs (legal term)*

*this is basically the same question i asked before but in a way that it could actually happen.

yes, i am being an asshole here. but it's the fun kind.

with regard the ticket limits, this summer it seemed it was up to ticketmaster's disgression, i bought 8 tickets for one date (6 on the day) for friends of mine, after it would have, by your definition"sold out" sometimes this happens, i was all my friends prince "hook up" this summer. And i think the desire to stop touting was lip service almost when compared to the desire to sell out 21 shows.




in the case you state of the person with the tickets, despite the intentions of the person who bought the tickets to sell, i think it's actually unfair of aeg to give away the seized tickets, and i would suggest since they would be evidence of a crime, illegal and reckless if the person was to return another day to sell tickets.

Further to that, giving away the tickets is not entirely laudable. Really. I know it LOOKS that way, and probably seemed that way at the time..
Here's my opinion.

The tickets should have been cancelled(if he bought more than the ticket limit,he should have been refunded, (Mostly i would blame ticketmaster since they should have enforced the ticket limit, this is not a discressionary case, it's clearly them not doing their job-the guy is a customer of ticketmasters and ticket limit not being enforced probably gave him cause to think what he was doing was acceptable is that called implied consent?)the tickets should then have been reprinted, and sold to fans.



I believe It's actually disrespectful to the people who had paid for tickets to go around giving them away for free. To people who didn't do what it took to get tickets at the time they went on sale.

Now, i know at the time that probably looked like a nice thing to do- really i think it isn't fair on the majority.

Selling them at face value from the box office would have been just as nice for those people who were prepared to pay anyway.



this is a fun and smart dicussion! thanks for playing along..

Glyn

As always you raise some valid points

On the first part, it would not be possible to allow a person to sell anything on a public highway as this would be an offence, with the security allowing it complicit in that offence

So thats that one out

As for getting the money back off of your friend, I think that is exactly the right way to go about things

You spent the money on their say so, they should compensate you

As for who I work for let me reiterate, I own my own businesses

I work for a variety of companies and bands but the opinions I express here are purely my own

Some of my clients are pro touts, some anti, some don't give a damn

My opinions are based on a variety of factors and experiences

A small handful of touts do nothing but buy short, sell long, always deliver what they say and dont break the law

Unfortunately now, the majority are involved in selling counterfeit tickets, wristbands, passes, or just selling tickets that don't exist

I would refer you to the cases of getmetickets.com, ticketout.com etc

In the last few years there has been a huge increase in the amount of ordinary fans left disappointed and out of pocket

Also with the advent of eBay and other internet market places, everyone can be a ticket tout

This has led to many fans being unable to afford or obtain tickets

Not what the bands and artists want

If this trend continues there is a danger that the ability to see live music will be based on who can pay the most

Is this really a situation anyone wants?

The problem with current legislation is that it takes far too long to shut down the rogue elements and the fraudsters

One case in point would be londonticketshop

As for those who had their tickets seized

All of them were given at least one warning

Some more than one

As for fans disapproving, ask the fans who were queuing outside IndigO2 on the last night who couldnt get main arena tickets if they disapprove of being given free tickets

I think they might disagree

ecnirp98 said:

Markland- one last post..

i stand by my statement about it being legally reckless and disrespectful to give tickets away. I know not everyone will agree with it, unless it was with the consent of the person who bought the tickets in which case it was actually "a gift" I think they should have voided the tickets refunded him, and resold them. People in good faith paid hundreds of pounds for aftershow tickets that they too really really wanted.. and when people have been paying those premiums to just give them away is disrepectful to them.

Of course the people getting the tickets will be happy and not thinking of the bigger picture, fair is fair for all, not only the priviliged few.

Also, tickets for the last night were available, albeit sproadically for the main show until 8pm at the box office, i Know because i bought extras for a friend of mine there, at 6.15, i then tried to get hold of her on the phone. to no avail.I tried for two hours.

So i ended up selling my spares on to an orger and a random person inside the 02. Technically i broke the law. however i do not know a single person who when stuck with a spare ticket wants to be told they can't sell it and that they are a criminal. Or thinks that's fair.


I feel no remorse because in this case, the law is broke.*

*or the t&c's but the "law is broke" is so much more soundbitey!


With regard street trading/5 ticket limit, my understanding was that the approach roads to the 02 and the carparks were not public highways but privately owned. (though originally paid for with 700 million pounds of taxpayer money) Even if that is not the case, security could tell the sellers to move INTO a designated area at the 02 itself to sell tickets, where they could then keep a very close eye on them and make sure they were selling at face value before being escorted in. Then the rest of my plan could be implemented. obviously a return scheme is preferable, but in the meantime. That could work.


Of course ANYONE knowingly selling fake tickets or wristbands should be prosecuted, it's fraud, plain and simple and they should go to jail. do not pass go, do not collect 200 pounds..

There is a huge difference between people selling spares, and people selling fakes. One allows people to get into concerts the other despicable




As for the "few who can pay the most" well to be honest, that's happening already. With or without ebay.
Concert prices (not prince) are SKY high and frankly ridiculous. The supposed sponsorship of events has not proven to pass on price benefits to customers and ticket sales models now exclude younger people because prices are too high, and they are not equipped with credit cards.. Where WERE the kids at glastonbury this year?


Prince lowered the cost, and frankly i have enourmous respect for that, there were people of all ages at the concerts and that created a great vibe.



xx
[Edited 10/2/07 14:36pm]

ecnirp98 said:

Nice to know that you felt you had to attend another disappointing show just to get a little more booze in your belly. I found plenty of people enjoying themselves without having to resort to alcohol. In future why not try your local pub that's what I do, no need to piss fools like me off by walking around an arena like a drunk twat when you can so easily do it elsewhere. I'm sorry you felt that you had to resort to having a few drinks to get your entertainment if you felt the shows were not up to your standard then why go, just think what you could of gotten from the local for £31.21?

glyn said:

In relation to the ownership of property around The O2, all of the land including the roads up to the roundabout with the Holiday Inn on are private property and also public highways

The roads will become solely public highways when they are assigned to the local authority

The broad definition of a public highway is "an area not permanently enclosed to which the public have access without payment"

Thats in a nutshell

The whole peninsular was defined as a public highway despite being privately owned by Greenwich Councils legal team

So there is nowhere to assign as a "designated area"

So that is that idea out of the window

As for giving away the tickets, that was done as Prince went on stage so there was a) no time and b) no opportunity to cancel the tickets off and resell them

As for the £700 million spent on the defunct Millenium Dome, you need to hold politicians to account on that not AEG

AEG has pumped massive amounts of money into the Greenwich Peninsular to bring about regeneration

Without that investment the taxpayer would still be shelling out around £300,000 per annum in security costs to keep the site empty

Regarding ticket prices, yes ticket prices have gone up substantially over the last few years, you can blame that on a combination of factors, artists insisting on more money to perform, bigger productions resulting in bigger costs, etc etc

Frankly, its not my area of expertise so you will have to ask elsewhere for the underlying reasons

ok, if there wasn't the time to cancel tickets and issue them, that's somewhat better and understandable.

Though surely a system that is more rapid could be developed given the technology employed? (wireless barcode scanners) It takes seconds to print tickets and a barcode scanner programmed correctly could cancel and reprint tickets in an automated way...


Also, if the person was being accused of a crime though, isn't that like.. evidence?


With regard public highways.. Is not the Dome itself permanently enclosed? Regardless An area inside could be set aside. There are already program sellers in there, and a licensed taxi service.. Permission could be granted, another area could be zoned off. It's doable. and it would give the venue far greater control than they have, anyone outside the area past one warning could be considered a tout. This would make the job of security far far easier.

My most cynical take is what promoter really wants people re-selling tickets when there's nothing in it for them? if people can't re sell, people have to buy from the box office and Call me cynical, i think that's a good part of why larger promoters are so up in arms about this sort of thing. They see money changing hands and want a slice.


Thank you for succinctly and intelligently answering my questions,I have gained some valuable education from your responses. You have helped me plan my 02 tout campaign winter 07' to a tee and i look forward to showering the o2 with the sale of tickets that you can do nothing about due to legal loopholes for quite some time to come...


BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA..


ok. not that final part. that was a joke.

Sincere thanks, it's all too easy on the internet to take things the wrong way and descend into name calling and it's been a pleasure talking politely to someone with whom i must say on some issues, i disagree with.

An electronic record of every transaction is held, and as details were recorded as well as cctv footage its a moot point keeping the tickets

You hit the nail on the head when you used the word "licensed" regarding an area inside

Thats one company that is licensed, you would have to grant a traders permit to everyone wanting to sell a ticket or get permission for a licensed market place under the canopy which I suspect would be a nightmare to obtain, if it was ever granted by the local authority

I daresay someone will find a loophole in the law at some point anyway

As for promoters, god alone knows what goes through their minds sometimes, I really have never been able to fathom some of them out

Anyway, thanks for coming up with some interesting ideas

Always good to discuss things in such a civilised and adult manner

Be interesting to see if Prince comes back to The O2

Ok,I SWEAR THIS IS THE LAST ONE...

Forget the marketplace- just have the promoters at the o2 set up a licensed returns office at a stand inside that can sell tickets for people. -. Or just set up the box office to do this, at the 02 there are plenty of windows.

People bring their tickets in early in the night, the ticket barcode gets catalogued(or cancelled and reissued if need be) and blocked from further use till it sells again (to prevent multiple tickefast tickets) and their mobile phone number is taken. When their ticket sells, the person gets a text saying that it's sold and they then either immediately or at the end of the gig get to come and pick up their cash, OR it get's refunded to their credit card.

People who want tickets for sold out shows could buy for face value from there. They'll know where to go get tickets, People will know where to go to get rid of them. Anyone not selling there is automatically designated a tout. Security's job just got easier, and you won't have loads of people running around looking shifty about whether they want to buy or sell tickets they'll know where to go and all be in one place.


The cost of a return can be a small commission or agency fee. Payable by the buyer or the seller.. Then IF the ticket doesn't sell, the person gets a text saying to come and get it back if they want, say 5 mins before stage time? and can do with it as they please.

Basically, a real life version of what getmein or viagogo do. But with fair prices. And with the worries taken out since the tickets would actually definitely be real and right where you were buying them from.


Promoters could then sell out more tickets in advance (good for them!) and not hold back 100 to discourage touting knowing that statistically, it's very likely there will be people selling their returns.


That way there is no loss for the promoter, they take a small cut from tickets they already sold once anyway- Importantly- Joe public won't be branded a criminal for trying to get his money back, so you'll get public support. And you'll be able to spend time focusing on the real touts (they'll be the ones NOT using the system!)

It's basically your recommendation kind of made flesh but adapted for last minute occurences.. And really, it doesn't seem that complex. The technology is all in existence.


god knows why i am spending my time thinking this up and i am sure it's been suggested already....but i am ..




Anyway. I hope prince goes back to the 02, I think it's the best venue in london of it's size (with a scary as hell upper tier) And i had such a good time there. Despite my dislike for corporate sponsored venues, i think this is one time where it's been pretty much done right...

oh, and it looks like MARS from total recall. Scarily so.

glyn said:

what I cannot understand is why I cannot just buy a ticket off TM without having to sit on my computer for a week hoping one will come available - ridiculous - i ended up having to pay over the odds for someone else's spare ticket for the last night and then later i find out i could have got one at the box office - why is it being made so difficult for people??

Glyn

Exactly what I said in the first place, dependant on ticket value a buyback service at the box office for up to two thirds of the face value, all tickets to be resold at face value

Rita, there are always between 50 - 100 tickets held back on the day, plus the promoter sometimes releases tickets no longer required for the guest list

not quite exactly as you said- close, and different in one way that would make it attractive for promoters..

i suggest an agency model, in that, if it doesn't re-sell -the promoter loses nothing. In your model, they lose the buyback price from their previous income.. a subtle yet important difference.