It's easy for someone to judge or being moral about this subject, but express your opinions without being judgemental!Take care.

vdal said:

I completely agree. However if you look at the first few posts in this thread I think you'll find that it was in fact chris1bmf who started the 'judgemental' and 'personal' ball rolling.

DrEverything said:

I have sice apologised to spud for my judgemental attack on him (assuming spud is a him!) I assume you will want to do the same for me now as your first contribution to this post was a personal attack on me... especially as u 'completely agree'
I'll be waiting here.....or you can keep being judgemental.
[Edited 9/30/07 13:58pm]

I couldn't sett the E1 block for face vaip value as no one else was willing to pay £474 for to tktts on E1 so I sold them for £315...

I had to make up the rest by selling the aftershow for £280! Obviously you do not understand mum!

but if this makes you really unhappy and disgusted.. you are missing something in your life that you need to focuse so much energy on me.. get a hobbie.. take up fishing or something..

Markland.. is that the best you have 'scum'?... I love those real intelligent arguements!!.. I did nothing wrong and made some money got to too great gigd (7th aug / 21st sept) had a great time and I am so so so happy about it.. and the fact that it annoys self righteous fools like you 2 makes the whole experience even better!..

bring on the next set of name calling come on..

pondlife? .. scum?... (

i hope the police don't take me away for my heinous crimes!!

i have been watching this whole debate about touting all summer.

I have no problems with people selling spare tickets on ebay.

Here's the thing.

No one has to bid.
if they don't want to pay the price of a ticket on ebay, they don't have to buy it.

Hell, if they hate ebay that much, they don't have to look at it.

If you spent what you feel was too much money on ebay on a ticket that was accurately described, you ripped yourself off. That sounds harsh, i think it's fair too.


There was plenty of availabilily for these dates and people on the org were well aware (once the dates had started) that there were seats available on the day for .. EVERY SINGLE GIG either on ticketmaster or at the box office.


If someone lies about what they are selling then yes, they are ripping people off.
( yes, i am looking at you AEG-LIVE)

This whole idea that anyone who puts a ticket on ebay is a tout and somehow evil is hysterical and out of proportion.

There is no perfect system for distributing tickets. The secondary ticket market is actually quite useful for people who don't want to spend their days watching ticketmaster waiting for signs to move. And people who bid, should bid knowing that even if it's expensive, they get to know for sure that they'll get in.
[Edited 9/30/07 16:40pm]

glyn said:

The issue isnt about a person selling a ticket on eBay

The issue is people buying multiple tickets in order to make a profit

By buying up blocks of tickets, not a single ticket, it creates an artificial shortage thus forcing the price up at the expense of the average fan who simply wants to see the show

What I do take issue with is someone gloating that they felt ripped by AEG/Ticketmaster and got their money back from Prince fans on eBay

I would also point out that if you read the back of the ticket its sold on the basis that the ticket is not transferable

It also states that selling the ticket for profit or commercial gain voids the ticket

Therefore selling a ticket that is by the act of selling it void is a criminal offence, i.e. obtaining by deception
[Edited 9/30/07 17:38pm]

Markland said:

And the name calling continues!!
I did not buy multiple tickets to make a profit.. I was ripped of by tkt master refused an exchange by maxine and julie at AEG.. so i sold my E1 and was lucky enough to get C2 when a few more came on sale. I then sold my aftershow to make up the rest of the money and more for all the hassle i had to go through....I think i deserved it!
of course i wanted to go to the show i wouldn't have bought tkts if i didn't but not to see it from shitty E1

I didnt 'feel' i got ripped of by tktmaster I KNOW I DID! but i didnt rip anyone off as they knew WHAT they were bidding for!... I also offerd the tkt around the org for face value but no takers surprisingly!.....and stop quoting all that legal crap! ticketmasters and AEGs pooicies have been barely legal for the tour and and i didn't 'deceive anyone / i didn't make anyone bid. But feel free to judge if you have never broken the law in your life... HAVE YOU?.. Tell me so i can also get on my moral high horse!

All this 'genuine prince fans' talk makes me sick!.. who says i'm not a genuine fan or the ppl who paid lots of money for my tkts aren't genuine fans.. just cause it isn't your way doesn't make it wrong... and silly remarks about wanting to see the police seize my tkts do not help!.. Why would i sell at the O2.. i'd get a crap price for my £474 tkts!! The only reason i'm on here 'bragging' about it is because it winds up people like you who have nothing better to do then refer to people who sell tkts on e bay as 'pond life'!

I now live in fear that Pontius Pilate will knock at my door anytime soon to take me away to be hung / crucified and stoned (not in that order) for my terrible crimes!!

chris1bmf said:

The point has been made now by everyone - the concerts are over, we all had fun all friends together with the same common interest - Prince I am sure AEG will have learnt by their mistakes.

Ok, i am being slightly devil's advocate....

There was no actual shortage of tickets. There were 400,000 of them. 20,000 each night.


EVERY night, even given the touts block buying, there were still tickets available, as i said, online, and at the box office gone 6 pm. Tickets still available on the night x 21 = no shortage.

It was AEG and not ebayers who controlled the releasing of tickets and any subsequent apparent shortage. And it was in their interest to do so.

If people didn't want to buy tickets from ebay, they really shouldn't have.

The whole "not transferrable" thing is a moot point since the holders of the tickets weren't named at time of purchase(as glastonbury tickets are).There is no clearly defined ownership, no requested identification of ticket users and thus no transference could be proven.

The legality of the terms and conditions on the back of the ticket is spurious and open to review*. Which is why NO ONE was arrested for ticket touting at the o2. Ticket touting per se is not illegal. There are strict guidelines on what touts must tell you when they are selling you a ticket but it's not a crime..

Also, the selling for profit thing is tough to enforce, all the seller has to do is claim some other cost (for instance, their time) and presto, ticket sells for face value, other cost makes up the rest of the fee- terms and conditions unviolated, ticket cannot be voided..

What people were stopped for outside the o2 were violations of copyright/trademark enforcement and street trading.

Also, if they want to stop resale of tickets, they really need to allow people to return them more easily. The terms and conditions on tickets(though easily bypassable) are somewhat ridiculously restrictive. And do, it must be said leave some people with no option other than ebay when they can't go to a concert.

Personally, i think to avoid all touting they would need to adopt the glastonbury approach, and the thought of that frankly is a bit too big brotheris h for me. What they could have done to reduce it is have a mixed up system.

1. lower the ticket limit so you can buy up to 4 tickets un-assigned as it is now.
2. anything over that amount, you need to assign names and photo id (a'la glastonbury) within 24 hours of purchase. Or they go back on the market.


I don't think that buying up tickets to sell is necessarily fair, but then i also don't think it fair that few companies should control all the media on the planet, or the oil, and gas... yet those things seem to be legal, and frankly, far more important.


And for the record i sold one ticket on ebay. i started the bidding at 3 pounds. Any thing higher than that was an expression of the free will of the bidders. i never forced anyone to bid.


I also sold great seats at face value(sometimes minus booking fees) to 15 other people (some of whome were orgers) and gave away tickets for aftershows ..

I think neither side of this case as stated here is wrong, and neither is right. Calling each other names though? that's not really gonna help anyone.
[Edited 9/30/07 19:31pm]
[Edited 9/30/07 20:03pm]

glyn said:

OK I need to correct you on a couple of points there

The reason for tickets being available on the night was a request from security to withold 100 tickets to negate the impact of touting on the day plus the return of uncollected guest list tickets

Apart from these amounts of tickets the shows, were by and large, completely sold out

Second, there were, in fact, two arrests at The O2, both persons were ticket touts and the matters are nor sub judice

Third, it is illegal to sell a ticket on a public highway, its actually illegal to sell anything on a public highway without a permit, traders license etc

There is also a separate and very specific offence of "selling a ticket" on Transport For London and London Underground property

Fourth, the terms and conditions on the back of the ticket are a binding contract between the purchaser and the seller and are legally enforcable which is why so many tickets were seized from people outside the venue

If you need the appropriate legislation you will find it under the London Local Authorities Act 1990 and subsequent amendments

I think you selling your tickets at face value was laudable and at least they went to genuine fans

I dont have a problem with someone who gets stuck with a ticket after someone has let them down selling it on eBay

What I do have a problem with is people buying up more tickets than they need to sell the excess to finance their travel costs and underwrite their own tickets

I also have a problem with people who get real fans to pay for what they perceive is their "due compensation" via ticket sales on eBay and then gloat about it on here like its something to be proud of

All that attitude shows is they are not smart enough to get compensation from the company who should give it to them, and their utter comtempt for Prince fans in general

Markland said:

now he is attacking my intelligence! even though he doesn't know me and my earlier posts described how i spent a few weeks rying to sort this with maxine and julie! and would u ullease stop quoting all the legal crap!! NO ONE CARES Can't you see!!! You are not wrong when you keep saying you have a problem!

MARKLAND

1. the terms and conditions are unfair. and aeg have not covered themselves on the non transferrable clause by a.. not taking names of all users at time of purchase. b. not accepting returns.
unfair terms and conditions are not legally enforcable.
Only the law is.
Security were confiscating tickets. But it must be said-
This was an elaborate bluff. Security are not the law.

2. it's only illegal in this country to re sell football tickets.

3. People were being arrested for street trading and trading tickets on lt property? possibly- if you say it , then i will believe it. Street trading is not specifically touting. It's a seperate crime. On LT property they would have had to bastardise the laws which were brought in to deal with reselling of travel cards- nice work on their part..but not concert ticket touting laws.

4. The other reason people were being stopped was under trademark and copyright enfringement, the logic being that the ticket design was copyrighted to prince and that re selling it was the same as selling bootleg goods.. once again, spurious. But not touting.

5. If tickets were available at the box office- the gig was not sold out. it's that simple. add to this tickets available online on the day for every gig and the clear lack of SOLD OUT signs on ticket master and i think you have to concede that. A committed fan could have got tickets one way or another and i think pretty much all of us here did.


6. people only buy up so many tickets because they can. If aeg wants to stop this from happening, they need to lower the ticket limit and implement something like i suggested.

7. my first experience of seeing prince was in 88, when i was 15. i bought a ticket from someone who was a professional tout for more than face value, she was confined to her home with m.s. and it was the only business she could really run. I had a great time.

8. IT must be admitted, that touting is what some people do for a living. Buying things and selling them for more than they were bought for is the fundamental principle of capitalism. A good chunk of them are idiots with no social skills who are pretty offensive and don't care about music or fans. To tar everyone with that brush though i think is inaccurate.

9. I understand the poster who got his money back any way he could... granted he could have done it more accurately.
He got ripped off , he then let people voluntarily bid for things that he paid for, really not going to knock him or call him names. The people who bought his tickets probably had an amazing time. You can not say whether they got value for their freely given money.


please feel free to correct me and point me to specific links with the law on.., I am not particularly attached to my arguments, i like a good "think off or "fact off" I got my facts from the trademark enforcement officers and the security at the o2.
[Edited 10/1/07 9:17am]

chris1bmf said:

Let me quote you shall I? "The only reason i'm on here 'bragging' about it is because it winds up people like you who have nothing better to do then refer to people who sell tkts on e bay as 'pond life'!"

You were bragging about making money off of fans on eBay long before the pondlife remark

Now who is getting wound up

If you dont like hard facts and don't like a dose of your own medicine stop reading what I post

A bit like people can choose whether to buy off of eBay or not isnt it?

It all boils down to choice

I must say your last post was a prime example of a well thought out, articulate opinion, not

Markland said:

You have really lost the plot now! I said I like bragging as it annoys people LIKE you! ie. you are the prime target and sure enough you came running as ppl like you can't help but give thir opinion and pass judgement!

I'm not getting wound up I'm just tryna stop you from making even more of a fool of yourself! so purrrlease stop its embarassing!!

chris1bmf said:

So you come on here to deliberately wind people up, by your own admission, then bitch and whine and have to get the last word in when you get your wish?

And I have lost the plot???

Wouldn't your time be spent more productively getting the "compensation" you feel you so richly deserve from AEG/Ticketmaster instead of deliberately winding people up on a message board like a petulant child with ADD?

Try the small claims court, they could probably do with a laugh

hey guys....CHILL....lets share the peace n love...lets just move 4ward n leave the past n the past....the concerts r now over....surely there r better things 2 talk about such as the question n this thread....

i want 2 hear if the fams got compensated r not .....there r loads of fams who felt robbed n ripped off by AEG/ticketmaster n we r all interested 2 C if AEG kept there word with issuing refunds etc....

as the VIP ticket cost £239.95 it will be nice 2 hear fams got full refunds etc....and we can all compare how much we will get back right here.

i opted 4 the VIP reception 4 the 20th as a goodwill gesture from AEG n i had fun n met some wonderful fams from all over the world.

peace n love always,

WOLFY
[Edited 10/1/07 10:48am]

Markland said:

Yup wind up fools like you! as ppl like you cant help yourself the only one who is bitching here is the bitch who cried because i didn't act the way she wanted(whilst losing it and contradicting yourself at every turn!.. the joke of 'compensation'and how u think it would be a laugh being the latest example especially as u know its a good case for me and others

i hope you understand now and have learnt your lesson you cant control the word and if you try to people wil make you look (more)stupid as i have done.

Markland-

1. THIS IS FUN! i like a nice non name calley debate!


2. I know some lawyers. And their skill is often to make things sound like they are covered by the law when really things would not stand up in court or are not legally grounded.I have paid some to do this for me on occasion.

It's unlikely anyone will challenge the conditions of sale, Most individuals will not have the time or the money to face off to aeg, and frankly, Most people will not even read them (you saw how many cameras there were?) a lack of contest and an individual's lacking in means to challenge them does not= legal acceptance of the terms and conditions as fair.

As of this time no laws pertaining to this exist in the field of rock concerts.
which is why people are being stopped on other charges.

SOME Concert promoters want them to be implemented which is why they are lobbying to have the laws brought in. If they were here already, they would not be lobbying for them.

?You do concede that unfair contracts are not legally enforcable? without a return policy this is an unfair contract. Don't ask a lawyer, ask a person who owns a ticket and can't return it.

4. When i said bastardisation i was being a little dramatic, it does refer to any ticket.. i do think it's pretty a clever application of a law that was about something else... so, kudos!

5. We have a bit of semantics problem here maybe.. If tickets were withheld from sale yet intending to be sold to my mind that = tickets available = not sold out.
If tickets weren't witheld and not put on sale then that would constitute sold out.
Sold out = no tickets available at any time.


6. Am I to take it that you work for aeg? ticketmaster? the o2? if so, welcome,

7.Having read the law, if i am not mistaken, one of those "circumstances" is the presence of a police constable.In his/her presence they can take the "offending" items. Without one actually physically there, they can't. My claim of "bluff" still stands.
Yes there we plenty of police around, on their own though, unless i am missing something security cannot legally search or seize tickets...

8. thanks for the website link.. will be bookmarking that one.. looks like hours and hours of fun..

9. If indeed you do work for aeg, You don't have to sit around waiting for the government to make recommendations. Just think it through and do something. have you SEEN this Goverments actions? really... don't hold your breath.. they'll likely bomb the o2 to save it from touts..

10. Am familiar that there was pre registering for led zep tickets, it seems fair on the surface ,though i would dispute that a 1 in 50 chance of getting a ticket for one of the greatest bands of all time is hardly fair in the wider context, if the tickets are not all named ala glastonbury, expect to see them on ebay very soon.
[Edited 10/1/07 11:07am]

ah, unless i am mistaken we have a contradiction in your argument


Tickets are non transferrable if the terms and conditions are fair..


ebaying of tickets is a violation of the terms and conditions.




Yet you raise this as being an acceptable way to get rid of tickets that makes the terms and conditions fair?


explain!



Also, one major problem is your solution does not account for where most people will be let down, at the last minute. When it's too late to sell a ticket on ebay, they will go with it to the venue, only to be told they have to give it away, they can't sell it. Leaving them out of pocket. For all the caring about the real fans that promoters are doing, i don't see that coming through in this policy.


With regard led zep -the thing is people will have entered the led zep thing just so they can sell the tickets.. it's so enticing. You will not see a pair of them on ebay for less than a thousand pounds. All the worse since the gig is for charity.


with 1 million people registered for tickets, surely a good idea for them to be fair to people would be a tour or a bigger venue? people would likely pay the same price for a venue 4 or 5 times the size.. that's if they are only REALLY doing 1 gig.


You seem better informed than me on the legal abilities of security. So i will pass on arguing that point pending further research. You do admit that the violation is not touting per se, but a copyright violation? what level of force are the security allowed to use legally?

At which point i have to raise a question- an arsey niggly technicality stupid kind of question.. if the copyrighted tickets have my name on them also as the buyer. if i trademark my name am I also the trademark owner, and have rights to retain them?

anyway, gotta go - this was fun..


xx