JasmineFire said:

YOU may doubt my existence, but I cannot. . .if I'm here to ponder it, I must exist. Our own existence is, for each of us, undisputed (though the nature of it might not be).

tackam said:

That is not the case. It is quite possible for one to dispute their own existence.
That you can ponder your existence is not proof that you do exist, because to assume that is to assume a certain basis of reality, namely corporeality. Possibly you think that because you have what appears to you to be a physical presence that that is proof of existence. But you also need to question whether what you perceive to be physical existence, or reality, does actually exist. For example, I may think that the keyboard I am typing on is silver and black, and that it has a temperature of, say, 10ºC. However, is this really the case ? If I go down to the atomic level it makes so sense for me to say that any one individual atom is either silver or black - atoms do not have colour, as colour does not exist below the molecular level. The colours of my keyboard are just my perception of the relative spaces between the molecules of which it is comprised. Nor does it make sense to say that any individual atom of my keyboard has a temperature of 10ºC, beacuse temperature does not exist at the atomic level. What we perceive as temperature only exists at the molecular level and only in relation to the relative vibration of molecules.
So, without going too far into it, if I know that when I look close enough that I can prove that colour and temperature do not exist, how can I be sure that any other aspect of my perceived reality (including my own assumed thought prrocesses) exists ?
I may think I am a corporeal entity encasing a 'mind' or an array of complex thought processes, but what if those thought processes are actually randomly and loosely gathered interactions between varying vibrations of energy with no connection to eachother other than that they happen to be in the same locale and form what I consider to be my thoughts.
I have no way of knowing that what I consider to be my 'mind' actually exists as a cohesive entity, or that it is housed in what I perceive to be a collection of molecules.

So, if you get what I've just said there, you'll see that I have just doubted my own existence.

brilliantly put, AU! reality and existence have to be the most fascinating things to ponder!

IAmTheTouch said:

Thanks! Although, that's about as deep as I like to go, if I go quantum my mind starts trying to disappear up it's own... mind (which is also entirely possible of course!).

AsylumUtopia said:

i've heard it referred to as "turning the mind onto the mind." you either come out enlightened or warped! luckily, i don't even begin to understand quantum theory...

IAmTheTouch said:

Have you read any Robert Anton Wilson ?

His "Quantum Psychology" is a great intro to quantum theory, and he has a great writing style - he has a great ability to present the concepts in an easily undertandable form, and he's very funny with it. I recommend all of his books, they all touch on quantum theory in one way or another.

One of my favourite bits of his (which I think is probably in Quantum Psychology) is his great way of explaining how we all have two heads (our 'real' head as perceived by the universe outwith ourselves, and our 'perceived' head which exists only within our own self/ego/mind).

tackam said:

That is not the case. It is quite possible for one to dispute their own existence.
That you can ponder your existence is not proof that you do exist, because to assume that is to assume a certain basis of reality, namely corporeality. Possibly you think that because you have what appears to you to be a physical presence that that is proof of existence. But you also need to question whether what you perceive to be physical existence, or reality, does actually exist. For example, I may think that the keyboard I am typing on is silver and black, and that it has a temperature of, say, 10ºC. However, is this really the case ? If I go down to the atomic level it makes no sense for me to say that any one individual atom is either silver or black - atoms do not have colour, as colour does not exist below the molecular level. The colours of my keyboard are just my perception of the relative spaces between the molecules of which it is comprised. Nor does it make sense to say that any individual atom of my keyboard has a temperature of 10ºC, beacuse temperature does not exist at the atomic level. What we perceive as temperature only exists at the molecular level and only in relation to the relative vibration of molecules.
So, without going too far into it, if I know that when I look close enough that I can prove that colour and temperature do not exist, how can I be sure that any other aspect of my perceived reality (including my own assumed thought prrocesses) exists ?
I may think I am a corporeal entity encasing a 'mind' or an array of complex thought processes, but what if those thought processes are actually randomly and loosely gathered interactions between varying vibrations of energy with no connection to eachother other than that they happen to be in the same locale and form what I consider to be my thoughts.
I have no way of knowing that what I consider to be my 'mind' actually exists as a cohesive entity, or that it is housed in what I perceive to be a collection of molecules.

So, if you get what I've just said there, you'll see that I have just doubted my own existence.
[This message was edited Fri May 14 5:36:10 2004 by AsylumUtopia]

JasmineFire said:

YOU may doubt my existence, but I cannot. . .if I'm here to ponder it, I must exist. Our own existence is, for each of us, undisputed (though the nature of it might not be).

Nice work.

Ok, well, I don't personally doubt MY existence, as my sense of self is too loosely defined (ie. not tied up in physical reality or some sort of rigid idea of mind) to be threatened by that. If all I am is a, perhaps momentary, loosely gathered interaction between vibrations (and, um, it probably is. . .I'm thinkig string theory. . .and none of us 'gets' consciousness enough to say otherwise), fine. I'm still experiencing myself.

But y'all can dispute your own existences if you want.

That is not the case. It is quite possible for one to dispute their own existence.
That you can ponder your existence is not proof that you do exist, because to assume that is to assume a certain basis of reality, namely corporeality. Possibly you think that because you have what appears to you to be a physical presence that that is proof of existence. But you also need to question whether what you perceive to be physical existence, or reality, does actually exist. For example, I may think that the keyboard I am typing on is silver and black, and that it has a temperature of, say, 10ºC. However, is this really the case ? If I go down to the atomic level it makes no sense for me to say that any one individual atom is either silver or black - atoms do not have colour, as colour does not exist below the molecular level. The colours of my keyboard are just my perception of the relative spaces between the molecules of which it is comprised. Nor does it make sense to say that any individual atom of my keyboard has a temperature of 10ºC, beacuse temperature does not exist at the atomic level. What we perceive as temperature only exists at the molecular level and only in relation to the relative vibration of molecules.
So, without going too far into it, if I know that when I look close enough that I can prove that colour and temperature do not exist, how can I be sure that any other aspect of my perceived reality (including my own assumed thought prrocesses) exists ?
I may think I am a corporeal entity encasing a 'mind' or an array of complex thought processes, but what if those thought processes are actually randomly and loosely gathered interactions between varying vibrations of energy with no connection to eachother other than that they happen to be in the same locale and form what I consider to be my thoughts.
I have no way of knowing that what I consider to be my 'mind' actually exists as a cohesive entity, or that it is housed in what I perceive to be a collection of molecules.

So, if you get what I've just said there, you'll see that I have just doubted my own existence.
[This message was edited Fri May 14 5:36:10 2004 by AsylumUtopia]

tackam said:

i'm just poking at you.

as if i would doubt my own existence. i have better things to think about, like how to poke at people.

tackam said:

Fair enough!

I don't tend to question my existence very often, it seems to make my possibly non-existent head hurt.

Actually I'd be interested to know how you define your sense of self, given that (I would think) it most naturally comes to us to define ourselves within corporeal parameters and a sense of individuality and 'mind'. Do you see your 'self' as being part of a spiritual or gaian connection to a greater whole, one multiverse, one beautiful 'supermind' experiencing itself subjectively, that sort of thing ?