One of my neighbors is a 15 year old white kid. He approached (wearing a wave cap, yep, the white boy was wearing a wave cap) me while I was washing my car and said "Wassup, are you down wit smoking a sac and fucking dem hoes tonight?" I replied and told him "I don't smoke weed and I don't have sex with hoes" Then he replied "I'll be at da crib tonight, hit me up on my celly if you change your mind and I'll call my niggaz up"

The kid refer to himself and his white friends as "niggaz"

Who's to blame? Hip hop music? Or is it the culture of today's youth?

Reminds me of that Seth Green character in that teen movie where he's all actin' a fool!

It had what's her name, Jennifer Love Hewitt in it...

Makes me laugh whenever I see a whiteboy actin' all black...tryin' ever so hard not 2 b himself!

But, in adolescence it's okay, even expected, it's the men in their 20's I'd worry more about!

AbucahX said:

Why do you call him a white boy? doesn't he have a name? why label him with color?

AbucahX said:

You should have given the dumb little fucker a savage beating.

AbucahX said:

I blame fatty foods, myself...

SilentChatter said:

I think the description of race in this story is actually appropriate, considering what he was wanting to ask and convey...but normally I'd agree wit yer viewpoint...

AbucahX said:

What I don't understand is how/when/why did wave caps become a fashion piece?

I mean if you're tryin to get waves or keep your cornrows from getting messed up that's one thing--at least it's functional (although I still think wearing a wave cap out in public is the equivalent of women goin out with rollers and hair nets).

But if you're NOT growing waves or don't have cornrows it just looks double stupid.

NuPwrSoul said:

What is a wave cap and what are waves?

I would love to know, do u have any pictures as examples?

Hey, sawatdiikhrap!!! Quit making waves!!!

You know what else I really hate?

Yep... I hate it when you see white kids from the suburbs wearing all FUBU clothes with gold chains and a baseball cap turned sideways... they invariably try to speak ebonics as well. I like to think that these kids would take a tremendous ass whipping if they dropped into a black neighborhood acting like they do.

Why can't people just be themselves?

IceNine said:

SHIT!!!
they about the only ones that can afford to wear the shit.

IceNine said:

So because someone looks "white" they shouldn't wear certain clothes, or speak in a certain way? Should those things be limited to people who only look a certain way?

00769BAD said:

:LOL:

sawatdiikhrap said:

Waves is a black hair style for men, where the hair is cut relatively short, brushed forward with pomade or some other hairdress or conditioner and then, tied down with a wave cap or du-rags -- www.durags.com -- for a period of time, either over night or leading up to going out.

When the cap is removed, the hair is arranged in tight little waves.
.
[This message was edited Thu Dec 19 8:55:28 PST 2002 by NuPwrSoul]

NuPwrSoul said:

Well... FUBU, or "for us by us," is a line of urban cloting made by blacks for blacks and I don't understand why a suburban white youth would find the urge to try to co-opt black culture to the point of wearing FUBU clothing.

I just find it silly, but you can like it if you wish. In fact, you can promote it if you think that is the way to go.

:LOL:

...
[This message was edited Wed Dec 18 16:25:53 PST 2002 by IceNine]

IceNine said:

We live in a hybrid culture. Each apparently distinct "group" has borrowed from the other, so neither can claim any cultural purity or authenticity when you get right down to it.

If cultural exchange is going to take place, I rather it be done on the basis of freedom justice and equality and it be a fair exchange. Not co-optation or appropriation or exploitation (and certainly hip hop wouldn't be the first example of that). So-called "white" people been diggin on "black" culture for hundreds of years.

Hell once upon a time black people cooked the food white people ate, sewed the clothes they wore, and black mammas produced the milk that they drunk... FOR FREE. So if a "black" company is getting paid this time around for providing similar goods and services then more power to them.
.
[This message was edited Wed Dec 18 16:29:05 PST 2002 by NuPwrSoul]

NuPwrSoul said:

More power to you then... I just think that it is fucking stupid when a suburban white kid tries to act "street" and I will always think so. The thing that REALLY amuses me is when these same kids try to use ebonics, as in the example that AbucahX brought up...

Do you find that cool too???

:LOL:

IceNine said:

More power to me?

Sheeeit I don't own stock in FUBU... I wish I did tho'. Actually on second thought Sean John's line is much more interesting and costly and PhatFarm much more high-end so I'd put my stock in them.



Most commercial hip hop is being produced for the suburban market's consumption and entertainment. Hip hop was at one time organic to the urban street, but it has more to do with global marketing decisions than word on the street these days and that's what I think is fucked up.

I don't blame suburban white kids. Because of its origins and initial energy hip hop became the language of rebellion, like rock was a generation ago, for young people today regardless of color. For that--to see an art form that originated with black and brown people--become a universal language for young people around the world--for that I celebrate. I am happy that young black and brown people in America have an identifiable and rich cultural tradition from which they could produce something like hip hop. Something to identify with.

To the degree that white young people have a reverse kind of cultural invisibility (i.e., because so much of what is white is defined by what is not black) they are left without anything identifiable to hold on to so I don't begrudge them finding hipness and coolness in hip hop. They did it with jazz, they did it with blues, and they did it with rock and roll. As long as people respect the origins, aesthetics, and spirit of the cultural force, they'll get no beef from me.



Ebonics and slang are not the same thing. To the degree that hip hop as an art form derives some of its lyrical energy from Black English dialect, I have come to expect that those who listen to hip hop religiously and use it to shape their world view, would sooner or later draw from that same lyrical energy. The same thing happened during the jazz age, with blues, with rock and roll, etc.

At the end of the day, language belongs to no one and everyone. Standard American English is the most bastard language on the planet, linguistically speaking. It has borrowed words from every language on the planet, and sometimes remained true to the original language's meaning and sometimes (more often) not. Thus, as someone who speaks Standard American English I am not in a position to tell anyone that certain words or ways of speaking are not cool.

00769BAD said:

ROFLMAOOO!

NuPwrSoul said:

Oh yeah, I think I may have seen that. It's kinda dated right?

NuPwrSoul said:

So... you would say that the kid that AbucahX was talking about was being perfectly cool and that what he did was acceptable because he was trying to find culture? He was co-opting language, dress and mannerisms from black culture in an attempt to be street or hip-hop.

From your statement above, it appears that you would agree that he was acting in a proper manner and there was nothing wrong with his actions.

sawatdiikhrap said:

Waves been around forever in one form or another. It's one of those hairstyles that go in rotation with another... like fades. Anybody walking round with a box fade or high top fade at this point is most likely a bamma, but low cut fades, ceasars, and waves are kind of always there.

The durag thing really came into play for people to cover up their busted ass cornrows that need to be redone cuz shit is flyin all over the place and needs to be rebraided but they either don't have the 8 hours it takes or too damn cheap to pay the African sisters $120 to get it done... so they'll cover it up with a wave cap.

But corn rows were so two three years ago... people still have 'em though. Guess they went into the rotation schedule.

IceNine said:

I would never think it to be appropriate to smoke sacs and and fuckin hoes, or even talk about it much less invite someone else to participate in such activities. Never. Regardless of who was speaking.

My statement above is more general about "white" people participating in cultural traditions that were developed by "black" people, in response actually to your more general post in this thread:



It is difficult to know right off the bat whether someone is co-opting or celebration, appreciating or appropriating. I'd have to know their context first. When I was growing up there were several "white" people who sincerely appreciated "black" culture, and because they were around "black" people all the time, they looked, dressed, styled themselves, talked, etc. just like the people they were around. Were they mocking us? Were they being themselves? What makes us what/who we are?

In the age of the internet and global television networks, now people don't even have to live among people to draw inspiration from their culture. I've learned that just by looking at people I really can't tell what their intent is, and I really can't tell who is and is not being themselves.

The way I distinguish appropriation from appreciation or co-optation from celebration is by how studied people are about what they are doing, are they respectful of the culture's own standards and aesthetic values, and true to its origins and spirit.

I don't need to be convinced that a lot of people are engaged in worthless mimesis, mockery, meaningless imitation. But not everybody.

yo mutha

NuPwrSoul said:

Well, the kid that I was talking about was walking in a store that is right in the middle of a neighborhood with $1,000,000+ houses... he was attempting to walk with a fake limp, wearing a good number of fake gold chains (possibly real if his parents were far too generous) and when I heard him speak, he was clearly trying to be something that he was not. "Know wha I'm sayin', yo" and stuff like that were in his vernacular when he talked to someone on his cellular phone. He was clearly trying to imitate stereotypes that he has seen on television and in movies.

I find this behavior to be ignorant and silly, but it is your right to support it if you wish and I am not saying that you are wrong. I am saying what I think, as I was in my earlier post.

Since you don't believe in "race" per se, but rather culture, would you consider him to be "black?"

I don't have any problems with kids embracing hip hop or street culture...but the problem is when kids try to emulate or act the hip hop or street culture. I love hip hop. I love rap music...but I don't go around talking the hip hop language or dress in urban style clothing. Kids lose their identity when they emulate the culture. I think they would be better off if they just be themselves.

AbucahX said:

EXACTLY!!!

THANK YOU!

AbucahX said:

It's not unusual for young kids like that lose their identity...whether it be to goth or hip hop, it's all just a lot of phony appearances, has nothing to do with those character attributes that contribute to being a MAN. That's why we call them kids.

teller said:

agree. kids have no identity. that's why they're kids. it's when they're supposed to find one, make one or figure one out for themselves. it's not unnatural to try things on before discarding them later in life when you figure out who/what you are.

IceNine said:

Everyone is saying what they think in their post. At least I would hope so.

My right to support what? What do you see me supporting? I have clearly indicated that appropriation, co-optation, and exploitation exists in cultural exchanges... just as much as I have argued that it is not always easy to distinguish those things from genuine appreciation or celebration.

Clearly with the elaboration you provided, it would seem that it was a case of meaningless imitation. But that was not so clear in your initial post, so forgive me for not being able to read your mind and thank you for clearing it up near the end of the discussion.



Where did you see me say I don't believe in race?