I've seen X2 twice now. Just let me say that I love it. A really great X-flick. I'm not sure if I like it as much as the original. That one had the whole shock and awe element of me seeing my own closely-held, dearly beloved, personal heroes of 15 years up on the screen for the first time. But this one was really great.

[SPOILER]I think what this one has over the first one, though, are the little moments hinting at the coming of the Phoenix saga. The Dark Phoenix Saga is my favorite comic book story, and probably the best comic book superhero story ever written. I'm getting a boner even now, just thinking of the little bits and pieces they revealed in X2. I can only fantasize about what the image of the Phoenix Force on the big screen will look like. And I think it's pretty obvious that's where they're heading. In the first film, we had a brief bit with her in Cerebro. That would explain how it could begin -- the amplification of Cerebro breaking down the psi blocks Xavier put in place during her childhood (this would be a natural piece of X-history to include in her movie character). We have her first scene in X2 where her powers have increased and are unfocused. Scott says "since Liberty Island..." so perhaps Cerebro PLUS effects from Magneto's mutant-making contraption have changed her in some way, or opened her up to getting a visit from a universal psychic entity. Also, in X2, not only is her telepathy and telekenesis amped up, but at a couple of points, her powers seem to border on precognition, which is all very "cosmic entity of life and death," if you will. On top of that, we have Mutant 143, who is obviously supposed to be Mastermind, who was very instrumental in the Dark Phoenix saga. I don't think it's coincidence there's a guy that looks like that, with those powers, and the first name of Jason is popping up in a movie where we see the inklings of the Phoenix emerging. Plot shorthand of making him Stryker's son was convenient and a natural way to bring the X-Men into contact with him for now. The prospects of a Dark Phoenix Saga coming to the big screen makes me light-headed and makes my toes tingle. Very cool. I cannot wait. Or, actually, I can... based on what I've said previously, about a DP-style story being a bit removed from what the X-Men are about, especially when you only get a movie every few years. But more on that later...[/SPOILER]

On to my outline for future X-movies.

Obviously, there's going to be a Wolverine solo story. HOPEFULLY it's based on the Weapon X story by Barry Windsor-Smith. I know that over the years, that one's been twisted and falls in and out of favor as the "official" origin of the Wolverine we know. Hell, they can even include the pointless "Origin" origin of Wolverine, if they must: after all, that's why Marvel put it out. Anyway, that's that for Wolverine.

There is a big question mark over Halle Berry for future X-movies. She's a big name actress now, and these are ensemble films. Old pros like Steward and McKlellan are just happy with the work, they know what it is, they aren't complaining about the small roles. But I understand where Berry's coming from. She's hot in Hollywood now. Since the last movie, she's had some big-time work and won an Oscar too. If this were a dramatic ensemble movie, that would be one thing, but several of the characters (especially the 2 team leaders) are basically wall-paper that take a backseat to, first and foremost, Wolverine, then whoever's "neat" (like Nightcrawler). If they go the Dark Phoenix route, there'll probably be even less for Storm to do. But that might be rectifiable (as I'll demonstrate later).

There are 2 possibilities for Berry to have a move beefed up role in the X-Men movie franchise.

The first choice is unlikely, but it would certainly be something I'd like to see. How about a Storm solo movie? She's got a built-in story that would be perfect. Base it loosely on the "Life Death" stories of hers from the 80's, or possibly the Chris Claremont Storm graphic novel (or is it now a mini-series) that's coming out within the year. A meeting up of Storm and Forge and Storm and Yukio would be cool. She could even get that notorious haircute (though not so severe, I'd hope), so they wouldn't have to deal with the problem of that weird white wig. Life Death. An unlikely Storm solo movie, but hey, it'll have Halle Berry in it, so it could get made.

Another more likely scenario is that for X3, Cyclops leaves the team after the death of Jean. X3, without going straight for the Phoenix angle immediately, could go as follows. At the end of X2, we get the impression that Xavier feels the presence of Jean out there somewhere in the world, still alive in some fashion. What we could get is this: Xavier thinks Jean is out there, but for whatever reason (being possessed by an omniscient cosmic entity perhaps?) she isn't detectable by Cerebro. So Scott goes out and does a "Search for Jean Grey" type of thing (like Jean and Cable did after they found out Scott was still alive after being merged with Apocalypse, instead of out-right killed). Jean, meanwhile, has turned up on the doorstep of Dr's Henry McCoy (as seen briefly in X2) and Moira MacTaggart (who could be written as a love interest of Xavier from wayyy back, but is now married to McCoy? McCoy could also be an old friend, or he could be just introduced to the X-Men/Xavier for the first time in that movie). Either way, Moira and McCoy run a mutant research center (much like she does in the comic -- and hopefully benign, and not at all like Stryker's "research").

Anyway, Jean turns up there. Has amnesia, from the trauma of the dam-break and/or from combining with a cosmic life-force. Meanwhile, Scott is searching for her, and she, possibly for him. McCoy and MacTaggert, meanwhile, are quite interested in Jean and her abilities, and are in awe of this extremely powerful but unknown mutant. They make passing references that perhaps they should contact Moira's old colleague and lover Xavier... and maybe they eventually do. Dunno, they could work that part out for themselves. I'm not getting paid for this plot synopsis.

So anyway, Scott is away picking up the clues on Jean's whereabouts. Storm takes over as team leader. This would give both Berry and Marsden, the two who have been most vocal about having nothing to do in the movies, their own specific bigger roles. Scott on his search for Jean, and Ororo as team leader. As for the specific team-based plot for X3, hmmm, I dunno. The two plots could be tied together neatly by having Proteus be the bad guy, having Magneto involved in the movie by freeing him from his containment cell on Muir Island... maybe this could be how Xavier is contacted by MacTaggert. Just as Scott has arrived at Muir Island, Magneto shows up to free Proteus, and the X-Men are called by McCoy and MacTaggert for backup.

So, the superhero vs. villain plot comes together with the search for Jean plot. Good guys win, at the cost of MacTaggert's son Proteus (could they possibly write him as Xavier's son as well? hmmm!)

But I have a feeling X3 is going to be about Sentinals. That would be cool too, but I don't really see a way there to advance the Phoenix stuff and keep the underused actors happy.

Anyhow, the Dark Phoenix stuff would be saved for the 4th movie. If they're going to do it, do it right, and tease it out. Because I do have a bit of a problem with them doing Dark Phoenix as a movie. My desire to see it in a movie outweighs my reservations, but here they are anyway. The Dark Phoenix Saga has always been the best X-Men story ever told. However, there are problems. It's not the sort of story that's really the kind of thing that the X-Men are about. It's all cosmic awareness and power and spacetravel and blah blah blah. It really isn't grounded in the "feared and hated" angle that gives the whole franchise it's foundation. And I think that especially in a movie, they can't get too far away from the basic concept of the X-Men, which is the mutant/human dynamic of fear and evolution, etc.

Anyway, fuck that. I want to see the Dark Phoenix Saga on screen. But if they wait until the 4th movie, they'd have 3 movies under their belt to establish what the whole concept is about. By the 4th one they could play around a little bit.

In X3, we should see Mutant 143/Jason Stryker/Mastermind back at the school, being treated by Xavier to undo whatever it is his father did to him. That'll bring him directly in contact with the X-Men, and get him closely in the mix for when Jean comes back. In X4, after she's back and knows who she is, she could be also helping him, treating him, whatever, and that's when he could start the timeslip illusions on her. it would go down pretty much like the comic, but replace the Hellfire Club with the Brotherhood, to keep Magneto in the mix. having Magneto as the major enemy (well, besides the Dark Phoenix entity later on in the film) could keep the movie grounded in the concept while they did this grand personal story about the X-Men an Jean that really doesn't involve the conflicts with humanity.

they would need to find some way to bring Mastermind and Magneto together as allies, but with Mastermind in the mansion under the care of Xavier and Jean, i'm not sure how they'd do that. but again, they aren't paying me for this, so they can figure that plot point out for themselves.

so anyway, the Dark Phoenix stuff happens just as it did in the comic with the substitution of Magneto for the Hellfire Club... (or possibly with Magneto heading up the Hellfire Club? sorry, just brainstorming here...) but take out the Lilandra/Shi'Ar stuff. the final showdown with Magneto & Gang could be the catalyst for the suicide solution that Jean employs at the end of the story.

'twould be glorious.

and as for the 5th movie, do Days Of Future Past, or something like it. save the Sentinals for that one. that would be cool, and get them back to the core X-Men concept in the next movie after the Phoenix diversion.




snikt
[This message was edited Sun May 4 19:03:22 PDT 2003 by AaronSuperior]

well after all of that typing and breaking my self-imposed orxile, i hope somebody at least reads it, even if they don't respond or have any idea of what i'm talking about

AaronSuperior said:

I read it!

ok this X-men stuff is serious huh...I just thought it was a good movie...

Rhondab said:

X-Men? serious? serious as life itself!

Aaron, I was wondering when the hell you'd chime in!!! This movie is, indeed, a highpoint of my life as well.

I read your post, and I think you make some good points, but I think your theories are too complex for uninitiated filmgoers. With the size of the cast, all the new characters, etc., where they are now, I really don't think Singer and company can afford to get so indepth.

I have a few inklings that I'll hash out (though nowhere near the level of analysis you offered). Some you've hit on, but some I think they'll have to forego for simplicity sake. I'll be back in a sec...

Aha. Don't know anything about the X-Men comics, but it's good to know that actually *was* a hint that Jean Grey is still alive at the end of the movie...

OH MY GOD!!!
X2 ROCKED!! was so happy to see collusus, nightcrawler, beast, pyro and a slew of other old faves from my childhood.

can not wait for the third one, as i am delirious over them doing the dark pheonix saga.

unfortunately, the cast is only signed to do 3 movies. after that, i imagine halle will jump ship, as she has bigger fish to fry nowdays. part of what i think they are doing though, when they introduce these smaler characters in cameo is setting themselves up to prepare for when cast members start leaving, they can replace them with cheaper, lesser known actors who won't probably do that.

i imagine we will be seeing more of collusus, beast, and nightcrawler in future movies

Lammastide said:

hmmm, i thought i'd simplified it enough that they could a) write it into movie continuity and b) make it understandable to people who don't already know what's going to happen.

AaronSuperior said:

I followed ya, Aaron, and I've only seen the 2 movies. But now I kinda wish I'd been following the comics. Such great characters and stories!

Aaron, sorry about my delay. Here's my take...

Let me say that although I place the X-Men on par with Prince as a personal catalyst for appreciation of good art and literature, I pray the movie franchise ends at three -- with no corny solo spin-offs. There's something perfect about a trilogy: There's the classic pattern of exposition, embellishment and resolution. All else is risky tangential stuff. Also, I don't think mainstream movie-goers have the loyalty to support the X projects beyond three, and I doubt whether we can depend on the serendipity of good production, writing, directing, acting, etc., to magically converge more than a few times.

In the end, I guess, I want these movies to go down as cult legend, not a sadly degrading and eventually unwelcome Hollywood cash cow like the Friday the 13th series. Think of the best things in life – you always think fondly of what you’ve had just too little of!

Anyway, your projections on the third film are pretty cool, but I think producers might opt to adjust the specifics of the classic story a bit…

The Setup:
First, although Mutant 143 bears some similarities to Mastermind, I don't think he's a direct lift. I look at him more as an amalgamation of perhaps Mastermind/Proteus/Legion (catatonic; with one blue eye, one green) with maybe even bits of Nate Grey thrown in. I agree it was mere convenience to make him Stryker's son as opposed to the MacTaggerts’ (in the case of Proteus), Xavier’s (in the case of Legion) or Scott and Jean’s (with Nate), but he apparently died in X2 (unless, he did an unlikely – and corny – Protean jump from one body to another), and I think we've seen the last of him.

I also don’t think that Moira MacTaggert will be brought into the storyline – definitely not as Xavier’s past lover. Audiences will still have the Iceman/Rogue relationship to feed off of, and I think they’d feel yet another story of star-crossed lovers is boring. Further, I think heartstrings will be pulled with what’ll happen with Cyclops in movie three (which I’ll get to later).

I think it'd be safe, cleaner and easier simply to suggest Jean's latent powers were unleashed, as you mentioned, at Liberty Island, and that she finally succumbed as a host to the Phoenix Force when she was willing to give her life for her loved ones. The Dark Phoenix, I think, will be brought out later by a sheer crisis of passion and power, not the mental manipulation of Phoenix by Mutant 143. (More on her later.)

Possible X3 Plot:
Originally, I thought the third plot would revolve around the legacy virus, but I think the progression of that story would be too closely related to what we saw in X2. I now also think the third movie will revolve around the Sentinels for two main reasons: 1) Producers know fans want to see this story told; and 2) We’ve seen mutants fight among themselves in movie one; we’ve seen them join forces to fight an evil human in movie two; the natural progression is that mutants and humans now must join forces to fight something that threatens both of them…
Perhaps after Xavier's successful appeal at the close of X2, the U.S. Government holds off on the Mutant Registration Act, global mutant-human relations enjoy a bit of a peaceful period and mutant establishments like Xavier’s school see a thriving new era of development. (This could explain the “new” construction of the Danger Room, the rising popularity of the Hellfire Club and its Massachusetts Academy and a ton of cameos by familiar related mutants, etc.) I think Scott, Ororo and Logan will have left the group for various reasons, thinning the swelling cast and opening up a chance for some of the younger, newer X-Men to come forward (Rogue, Jubilee, Colossus, Shadowcat and possibly Gambit primary among them).

Elsewhere, mutation becomes more tolerable, admired and, in global erudite circles that recognize homo-superiors as genetically “better” than passé homo-sapiens, it actually becomes desirable in a sort of dark, eugenic way. With this, the highly elite and enigmatic Hellfire Club rises to power amid the most powerful and wealthy figures of both the human and mutant worlds, and its agenda to dominate the rank-and-file of both populations, propelling the world toward a sort of evolutionary final solution, gradually begins to shape global affairs. As you mentioned, Magneto could be written in as a (supposedly now friendly-to-human) Hellfire Club Inner Circle leader. This would make a wonderful allegory to any number of Illuminati-like conspiracy theories that circulate and it would show that prejudicial motive in any direction can be insidious.

Anyway, through fiscal and political connections, the Hellfire Club decides to fund the Sentinel project under the guise of “serving” humanity and holding the rogue mutants of the world at bay. Perhaps calculated mutant terrorist acts committed by the Hellfire Club’s Hellion mutants and blamed on the X-Men could be used to bolster general favor for the Sentinels while tarnishing Xavier’s reputation. The Sentinels go over easily with the public, but of course the Hellfire Club’s true motives soon appear with humans and mutants who disagree with its agenda being imprisoned or destroyed. The X-Men rise to battle this new onslaught with Ororo, Logan and, eventually through very heavy persuasion, Scott returning to the fold.

This battle royal ensues with grave casualties. When Xavier is seriously injured, his closest student Scott (as he did in the first movie) promises to continue as leader of the X-Men, and they put up a strong fight that sees them nearly defeated until – you guessed it – Phoenix shows up to kick ass! I think because Phoenix will be the obvious payoff of the third installment, she will be saved until fairly late in the movie and have a generally small, but breathtaking role.

At this point, I admit I’m stuck. Phoenix comes, saves the day, but I don’t know quite how Dark Phoenix will be brought out.
* Perhaps the sheer absolute power of battle brings out Phoenix’s dark side.
* Perhaps (God forbid) Xavier is killed and that sets her off.
* Perhaps Scott is faced with something horrible (like having to battle and maybe destroy his younger brother Havok, who could be written in as a Hellion member ), and his pain sets her off.

I dunno. But in the end, I truly think X3 will be Cyclops’ time to shine, and I think he will be instrumental in Dark Phoenix’s ultimate demise to offer the most emotionally gripping climax possible.

Lastly, I think the death of Dark Phoenix -- the poetic death of essentially life's sometimes uncontrollable zeal and passion itself -- will be used as the crowning message of the saga: We all must somehow conquer our biases, hatred, immensely destructive capacity and unchecked emotions and live for love and balance. It'd be a nice, crisp (albeit cheesy) way to end the series.
[This message was edited Mon May 5 22:12:03 PDT 2003 by Lammastide]

IT WAS FING AWESOME...saw it this past weekend. It is a deffinate go see

Lammastide, I like your ideas, but have a few points...

Lammastide said:

I like the idea of only doing 3 as well, but Singer has already stated that he sees no reason why it won't go on for many more sequels. Unfortunately, he's also said that he may not be doing the next one, at least not as the director, because he wants to get back to doing something, anything else, though he does love doing the X-movies.



this is probably true. they had originally wanted Sentinels in X2, but things just didn't work out. i'd like to see a Sentinels story, but the one that I can think of that best uses them as the bad guy is Days Of Future Past. most other times, they've been pretty lame, and not much of a threat. I suppose the possibility of a Sentinels movie going down well all hinges on if they come up with a decent character design for them. I really don't see 60 foot pink and purple robots straight out of some 50's sci fi B movie going over well in a mid-2000's action/sfx flick

I say save them. Get Dark Phoenix out of the way first. People will love the Dark Phoenix story, and if you have something as strong as the Sentinels concept (or DOFP) as the follow-up to DP, it would establish the franchise as having many stories to draw from, instead of following just one arc.

but again, I'd like to see them tease out the Phoenix plot for another movie before getting to the Dark Phoenix part of it.



i doubt that very much. that wouldn't be an X-Men movie without any 2 out of 3 of those main characters... Wolverine, Storm, or Cyclops. it just isn't going to happen. that would be a New Mutants movie... wich, actually, would be a cool spinoff after the whole X-Men franchise runs its course, but Singer has said there will be no X-Men movies without Jackman as Wolverine.





yeah, see originally I was going to have the Dark Phoenix and Sentinels in the same movie too. I just don't think it would work. First, you have to have a whole plot about the Sentinels, and THEN you have to have a whole plot about how the Phoenix has emerged and go through the Dark Phoenix stuff. I think that combining the two for the same movie would make for a 3-4 hour X-Men movie, and I don't see that ever happening. nor would I want to.





yeah, I dunno. see, I think that they should go with a Sentinels story or another evil-mutant (Magneto using Proteus?) in the 3rd movie because the whole Phoenix arc could fill a movie itself, and it's a very personal-to-the-X-Men type of story, that isn't grounded in their own concept. and I think that they need 3 movies to establish the concept before they get to Dark Phoenix. because the new will be wearing off by the 4th movie, and it's going to take something extremely spectacular to convince anyone to go to the third sequel of any franchise, in the same numbers they did for the first movie. Dark Phoenix is that extremely spectacular thing to me, and it will be after they've had 3 movies under their belt to establish the human/mutant struggle concept, so they can start playing around with the side stories for the 4th one.
[This message was edited Sat May 10 13:05:12 PDT 2003 by AaronSuperior]