So, I want to stay on this topic and not stray off.

When Han and Ben are facing off on the catwalk, Ben asks Han to help him end his pain. He pulls out his lightsaber. The question becomes this:

• Did Han know Ben wanted to kill him, and did he turn the lightsaber toward himself and activate it? (Death by suicide for his son's sake.)
• Did Han think Ben wanted to die, and the was offering Han his lightsaber to do it for him, but hten Ben pulled a fast one on him?

I pose this question because there’s a moment when we see the lightsaber, both Han and Ben’s hands are on it. The lightsaber slightly turns toward Han.

Did Han move it, or did Ben? Ben says, “Thank you” after he activates the lightsaber inside his father’s torso, and Han reaches up to touch his face one last time. Did he think that if he sacrificed himself, the good in him would come back (his mother seems to think there’s still good in him, as Luke saw in his own father).

TrivialPursuit said:

So, I want to stay on this topic and not stray off.

When Han and Ben are facing off on the catwalk, Ben asks Han to help him end his pain. He pulls out his lightsaber. The question becomes this:

• Did Han know Ben wanted to kill him, and did he turn the lightsaber toward himself and activate it? (Death by suicide for his son's sake.)
• Did Han think Ben wanted to die, and the was offering Han his lightsaber to do it for him, but hten Ben pulled a fast one on him?

I pose this question because there’s a moment when we see the lightsaber, both Han and Ben’s hands are on it. The lightsaber slightly turns toward Han.

Did Han move it, or did Ben? Ben says, “Thank you” after he activates the lightsaber inside his father’s torso, and Han reaches up to touch his face one last time. Did he think that if he sacrificed himself, the good in him would come back (his mother seems to think there’s still good in him, as Luke saw in his own father).

That's a good question. But Ben was asked if he could handle Han for good by his boss. It would seem that Ben wanted to kill his father.

I also think that Rey is Ben's sister and is the "chosen one" not Luke Skywalker.

^^^ Wel we do know that no one in VII was Rey's father, so if they're siblings, they're half at best.

Rey being Ben's half-sister never occurred to me...I always assumed she's Luke's kid and that was that...Han & Leia did break up and maybe Leia got preggers by Lando Calrissian who is also Finn's Biological father...a stretch, but it could work...

Chancellor said:

Rey being Ben's half-sister never occurred to me...I always assumed she's Luke's kid and that was that...Han & Leia did break up and maybe Leia got preggers by Lando Calrissian who is also Finn's Biological father...a stretch, but it could work...

Well we know that's not true. J.J. Abrams said no one in episode VII was Rey's father.

EmmaMcG said:

I'd say Kylo Ren was feeling the pull of the light side of the force but he actually wants to stay on the Dark side. Killing his father was his way of confirming to himself he is fully on the Dark side. I think Han misunderstood the situation and thought (or at least hoped) his son wanted to come back to the light side so he let his guard down and was killed for it.

There could be some truth in that - that he let his guard down for a minute. But really - either way, Ben could kill him at any moment he wanted to.

TrivialPursuit said:

What struck me as odd about Kylo Ren was his Vader worship: why didn't Han tell him
while they were on that catwalk-thingamajiggy that Vader, as he was dying, turned to
the light side of the force? Kylo Ren's devotion to Vader and the dark side is strange to
me, granted he knows the full history of Vader's turning back and restoring balance to
the force. Maybe Kylo is conveniently forgetting this part of Vader's story? I dunno . . .

But, what is to gain from Han suiciding for the sake of Ben? Is it so that Ben no longer
feels the pull or the sway from the light side of the force because he wants to be relieved
of the two sides pulling at him? I think Ben was torn between the two and just like when
we seen Anakin looking out towards the horizon torn between saving Padme and or keep-
ing his ass put when Windu told him to chill, so was Ben. I think he was truly vacillating
between both sides of the force and eventually, made his decision.

This scene only happens because Ford wanted out of the entire franchise.

TrivialPursuit said:

^^^ Wel we do know that no one in VII was Rey's father, so if they're siblings, they're half at best.

I'm thinking half sister. Han impregnated some lady Jedi and didn't know it.

And since Star Wars and the new Force Awakens are similar story lines one could draw the parallel that Darth Vader/Lukeskywalker (father/son) could be updated by Ben/Rey (brother/sister).

kewlschool said:

TrivialPursuit said:

So, I want to stay on this topic and not stray off.

When Han and Ben are facing off on the catwalk, Ben asks Han to help him end his pain. He pulls out his lightsaber. The question becomes this:

• Did Han know Ben wanted to kill him, and did he turn the lightsaber toward himself and activate it? (Death by suicide for his son's sake.)
• Did Han think Ben wanted to die, and the was offering Han his lightsaber to do it for him, but hten Ben pulled a fast one on him?

I pose this question because there’s a moment when we see the lightsaber, both Han and Ben’s hands are on it. The lightsaber slightly turns toward Han.

Did Han move it, or did Ben? Ben says, “Thank you” after he activates the lightsaber inside his father’s torso, and Han reaches up to touch his face one last time. Did he think that if he sacrificed himself, the good in him would come back (his mother seems to think there’s still good in him, as Luke saw in his own father).

That's a good question. But Ben was asked if he could handle Han for good by his boss. It would seem that Ben wanted to kill his father.

I also think that Rey is Ben's sister and is the "chosen one" not Luke Skywalker.

Luke was never the chosen one - Anakin/Vader was. By killing Palpatine and saving his son, Vader brought balance to the force.

uPtoWnNY said:

kewlschool said:

That's a good question. But Ben was asked if he could handle Han for good by his boss. It would seem that Ben wanted to kill his father.

I also think that Rey is Ben's sister and is the "chosen one" not Luke Skywalker.

Luke was never the chosen one - Anakin/Vader was. By killing Palpatine and saving his son, Vader brought balance to the force.

Each time they were the supposed "chosen" one.

uPtoWnNY said:

kewlschool said:

That's a good question. But Ben was asked if he could handle Han for good by his boss. It would seem that Ben wanted to kill his father.

I also think that Rey is Ben's sister and is the "chosen one" not Luke Skywalker.

Luke was never the chosen one - Anakin/Vader was. By killing Palpatine and saving his son, Vader brought balance to the force.

Correct. The whole first six episodes is about Anakin Skywalker, not Luke. He was the prodigal son. Luke was on a constant mission to be like his father, who he never knew anything about except that he was a Jedi and a pilot.

TrivialPursuit said:

So, I want to stay on this topic and not stray off.

When Han and Ben are facing off on the catwalk, Ben asks Han to help him end his pain. He pulls out his lightsaber. The question becomes this:

• Did Han know Ben wanted to kill him, and did he turn the lightsaber toward himself and activate it? (Death by suicide for his son's sake.)
• Did Han think Ben wanted to die, and the was offering Han his lightsaber to do it for him, but hten Ben pulled a fast one on him?

I pose this question because there’s a moment when we see the lightsaber, both Han and Ben’s hands are on it. The lightsaber slightly turns toward Han.

Did Han move it, or did Ben? Ben says, “Thank you” after he activates the lightsaber inside his father’s torso, and Han reaches up to touch his face one last time. Did he think that if he sacrificed himself, the good in him would come back (his mother seems to think there’s still good in him, as Luke saw in his own father).

Snopes told Kylo that he had issues still in him. Namely, that the "light" still inside him was keeping him from full dark side, making him completel in power. He asked his dad, Han, to help him..help him get rid of the light still inside by gicing him the chance to kill him (Han/dad) so the light inside would be estinguished and he could be full on dark side. Thats why he said thank you. I dont think Han turned anything on or turned it to him to kill himself. He was struggling to keep it away from hm and to get rid of the saber itself.

TrivialPursuit said:

Well we know that's not true. J.J. Abrams said no one in episode VII was Rey's father.

Yeah and George R.R. Martin and HBO's Head honcho told Fans that Jon Snow was dead and not returning. Just becuz J.J. said Rey's Father was not revealed in episode VII does not necessarily mean Luke is not her father...Writers/Directors/Producers love to play on words to throw fans off the scent.....If I were J.J. I'd LIE to fans just to keep you guessing and posting threads like this one....

the force awakesn........... sigh

What made no sense about the events surrounding this

1. General / Princess Leia Organa (Skywalker) in that moment of desperation (planets being obliterated-which also was way over the top) would not suggest on such an important mission (duty comes first) to Han to 'save our son'. She would not put that kind of pressure out there.

2. Han would not have jepordize the mission and the lives of those with him, but exposing himself to the enemy(who happens to be his son) at such an crucial moment

3. Of course the son had to be on a skywalk high over a dark deep drop, so the father's death/murder could be that much more tragic

4. Leia (or anyone) would turn to someone close to Han & her by history to/for comfort after hearing/knowing the news of Hans death. ie it made no sense for Leia & Chewbacca not to come together and embrace, it made no sense for Leia to turn to this young lady she does not know and barely knew Han.

Chancellor said:

TrivialPursuit said:

Well we know that's not true. J.J. Abrams said no one in episode VII was Rey's father.

Yeah and George R.R. Martin and HBO's Head honcho told Fans that Jon Snow was dead and not returning. Just becuz J.J. said Rey's Father was not revealed in episode VII does not necessarily mean Luke is not her father...Writers/Directors/Producers love to play on words to throw fans off the scent.....If I were J.J. I'd LIE to fans just to keep you guessing and posting threads like this one....

J. J. Abrams said no one you saw in Episode VII was Rey's father.

TrivialPursuit said:

Chancellor said:

Yeah and George R.R. Martin and HBO's Head honcho told Fans that Jon Snow was dead and not returning. Just becuz J.J. said Rey's Father was not revealed in episode VII does not necessarily mean Luke is not her father...Writers/Directors/Producers love to play on words to throw fans off the scent.....If I were J.J. I'd LIE to fans just to keep you guessing and posting threads like this one....

J. J. Abrams said no one you saw in Episode VII was Rey's father.

Trust me...JJ is lying. I'm still betting that Rey is Han and Leia's daughter. Pay CLOSE attention to Han and Leia's conversation about their son...Han left when Ben left, and he didnt know Leia was pregnant (there's a reason Han, Leia and Rey were never together on screen). Anyhoo...as for the Kylo/Han scene, I think Solo thought his son was handing over the saber, "surrendering" so to speak...unfortunately, he was not.

UncleJam said:

TrivialPursuit said:

J. J. Abrams said no one you saw in Episode VII was Rey's father.

Trust me...JJ is lying. I'm still betting that Rey is Han and Leia's daughter. Pay CLOSE attention to Han and Leia's conversation about their son...Han left when Ben left, and he didnt know Leia was pregnant (there's a reason Han, Leia and Rey were never together on screen). Anyhoo...as for the Kylo/Han scene, I think Solo thought his son was handing over the saber, "surrendering" so to speak...unfortunately, he was not.

I'll trust J. J., until I see different in two Decembers.

I am leaning more toward Han getting snookered by Ben in that scene. But I also believe, to go along with that, is that the pain Ben was in was the last bit of light or good left in him. Killing one's own father surely dims any light left.

Chancellor said:

TrivialPursuit said:

Well we know that's not true. J.J. Abrams said no one in episode VII was Rey's father.

Yeah and George R.R. Martin and HBO's Head honcho told Fans that Jon Snow was dead and not returning. Just becuz J.J. said Rey's Father was not revealed in episode VII does not necessarily mean Luke is not her father...Writers/Directors/Producers love to play on words to throw fans off the scent.....If I were J.J. I'd LIE to fans just to keep you guessing and posting threads like this one....

Lukeskywalker would not let his daughter be left alone at such an early age. Besides he has the force and would know where she was. Luke had no need to hide her either, because the threat (killing of the Jedis) happened when she was a teen and the Rey flashback informed us that she was left at an early age.

kewlschool said:

Chancellor said:

Yeah and George R.R. Martin and HBO's Head honcho told Fans that Jon Snow was dead and not returning. Just becuz J.J. said Rey's Father was not revealed in episode VII does not necessarily mean Luke is not her father...Writers/Directors/Producers love to play on words to throw fans off the scent.....If I were J.J. I'd LIE to fans just to keep you guessing and posting threads like this one....

Lukeskywalker would not let his daughter be left alone at such an early age. Besides he has the force and would know where she was. Luke had no need to hide her either, because the threat (killing of the Jedis) happened when she was a teen and the Rey flashback informed us that she was left at an early age.

I don't know the full story behind it. I did not read the book for the story(I generally do) but the background story on this sounds a bit messy.

duccichucka said:

What struck me as odd about Kylo Ren was his Vader worship: why didn't Han tell him while they were on that catwalk-thingamajiggy that Vader, as he was dying, turned to the light side of the force? Kylo Ren's devotion to Vader and the dark side is strange to me, granted he knows the full history of Vader's turning back and restoring balance to the force. Maybe Kylo is conveniently forgetting this part of Vader's story? I dunno . . .

I think, maybe, a clue is in the line, "I will finish what you started." Perhaps he considers Vader and Anakin 2 different people -- much like Obi-Wan, Luke and Yoda did. Maybe he believes Anakin "destroyed" Vader before Vader was able to complete his conquest of the galaxy.

But, what is to gain from Han suiciding for the sake of Ben? Is it so that Ben no longer feels the pull or the sway from the light side of the force because he wants to be relieved of the two sides pulling at him? I think Ben was torn between the two and just like when we seen Anakin looking out towards the horizon torn between saving Padme and or keeping his ass put when Windu told him to chill, so was Ben. I think he was truly vacillating between both sides of the force and eventually, made his decision.

This scene only happens because Ford wanted out of the entire franchise.

I agree with you and Kewl. Snoke tested him in the first act of the movie on the Han question. Just as Anakin was tempted by Palpatine using Padme as bait.

Plus, Ford wanted Solo to die at the Death Star in Ep VI. His death was probably a condition of him returning to the franchise, so as to end the character's story on his terms.

POOK said:

HARRISON FORD PULL LIGHTSABER CLOSE

.

POOK SEE IT IN HARRISON EYE HE JUST THINK

.

FINALLY NO MORE STAR WAR INTERVIEW

We usually try to stick to English here.

TrivialPursuit said:

POOK said:

HARRISON FORD PULL LIGHTSABER CLOSE

.

POOK SEE IT IN HARRISON EYE HE JUST THINK

.

FINALLY NO MORE STAR WAR INTERVIEW

We usually try to stick to English here.

Pook is the exception. Those who've been here a while will tell you.

namepeace said:

TrivialPursuit said:

We usually try to stick to English here.

Pook is the exception. Those who've been here a while will tell you.

have been here as long as u.

Pook weird!

By the way, Harrison is signed for episode VIII, so it's likely he'll be back in some fashion - probably a flashback. I expect more history with Ben, Han, and Leia to be shown.

.

[Edited 7/13/16 18:51pm]

TrivialPursuit said:

namepeace said:

Pook is the exception. Those who've been here a while will tell you.

have been here as long as u.

Pook weird!

By the way, Harrison is signed for episode VIII, so it's likely he'll be back in some fashion - probably a flashback. I expect more history with Ben, Han, and Leia to be shown.

.

[Edited 7/13/16 18:51pm]

Couldn't tell from your profile . . . TP know then!

That's encouraging. Hints we'll see the "break" in the Solo family. The LOTR - style sequence when Rey grabbed the saber hints at a flashback (the murder of the apprentices) . . . or flash forward (showdown with Rey/Luke?) . . . featuring the Knights of Ren.

As long as they don't bring back Ja Ja Binks I look forward to the next one