Indeed - especially Biggio! What a cool dude. He's raised $$$millions through his work with the Sunshine Kids. He's a Hall of Fame human being, and now he's a Hall of Fame baseball player. Congrats, Craig!

Oh, a note on Smoltz.

We went to an Astros game in Smoltz's last year (2009). I can't remember if he was with the Red Sox or the Cardinals (I think it was the Cardinals).

Anyway, we got there early and watched batting practice. I noticed Smoltz in the outfield, shagging flies. The joy he had running after fly balls was just incredible. Here was a guy that loved to play the game of baseball, even to the point of handling what is usually rookie duty. He'd chase a ball, catch it, and you just couldn't help but see the gigantic smile on his face every time he caught a ball.

Maybe it was because he knew his career was about over, or maybe he was just always that way his whole career. All I know is that it made me feel really good to see one of the greatest players ever take such delight in a meaningless baseball activity.

Yeah that Houston game was when Smoltz was with the Cardinals. He's a great guy and certainly worthy of induction, but damn that was an awful decision by Theo to give him that final contract.

It's unfortunate Bags wasn't inducted with Biggio, that would have been cool.

And every year some of the ballots make me wonder who filled them out.

Who are the 49 writers that didn't vote for Pedro? No doubt George King III was one of them.

And who voted for Troy Percival, Aaron Boone, Tom Gordon and Darin Erstad? I want names!!

Pokeno4Money said:

Yeah that Houston game was when Smoltz was with the Cardinals. He's a great guy and certainly worthy of induction, but damn that was an awful decision by Theo to give him that final contract.

It's unfortunate Bags wasn't inducted with Biggio, that would have been cool.

And every year some of the ballots make me wonder who filled them out.

Who are the 49 writers that didn't vote for Pedro? No doubt George King III was one of them.

And who voted for Troy Percival, Aaron Boone, Tom Gordon and Darin Erstad? I want names!!

Yeah, I'd love to Bagwell in but I'm afraid he's guilty by association in the minds of too many nimrod writers. Bagwell got HUGE during his career, but no one has ever associated him with steroids - no rumors, no whispers, nothing. I'm rooting for him, but I'm not optimistic because like you pointed out, there are some complete morons out the voting panel. Heck, some guy even left Nolan Ryan off his ballot.

RodeoSchro said:

Pokeno4Money said:

Yeah that Houston game was when Smoltz was with the Cardinals. He's a great guy and certainly worthy of induction, but damn that was an awful decision by Theo to give him that final contract.

It's unfortunate Bags wasn't inducted with Biggio, that would have been cool.

And every year some of the ballots make me wonder who filled them out.

Who are the 49 writers that didn't vote for Pedro? No doubt George King III was one of them.

And who voted for Troy Percival, Aaron Boone, Tom Gordon and Darin Erstad? I want names!!

Yeah, I'd love to Bagwell in but I'm afraid he's guilty by association in the minds of too many nimrod writers. Bagwell got HUGE during his career, but no one has ever associated him with steroids - no rumors, no whispers, nothing. I'm rooting for him, but I'm not optimistic because like you pointed out, there are some complete morons out the voting panel. Heck, some guy even left Nolan Ryan off his ballot.

Apparently some of the writers who didn't vote for Pedro or RJ excluded them because they figured both players were locks and they wanted to vote for 10 other players instead of 8. Even though their intentions may have been good, they still compromised the integrity of the voting process IMO.

Actually 6 writers didn't vote for Nolan Ryan, 5 didn't vote for Tom Seaver, 4 didn't vote for Ty Cobb, 11 didn't vote for Babe Ruth, 37 didn't vote for Walter Johnson ... writers are known to be stupid, hold grudges, or both.

I actually saw Bags play in the minors, so I understand the suspicions - but there's just not enough there to keep him out IMO. The good news is that he actually gained votes this year, along with another suspected PED user in Piazza, so I do think both will get in.

And speaking of Piazza, now that's a guy that I'm convinced was on the juice.

Hopefully one day, Bonds and Clemens get in. Baseball has always gone through "eras" (dead-ball era, segregated era) - why not have a wing devoted to the steroid era?

I'm not sold on Biggio as a HOFamer, but the others are no-brainers, especially Pedro.

uPtoWnNY said:

Hopefully one day, Bonds and Clemens get in. Baseball has always gone through "eras" (dead-ball era, segregated era) - why not have a wing devoted to the steroid era?

I'm not sold on Biggio as a HOFamer, but the others are no-brainers, especially Pedro.

3.000 hits and every one of them done without cheating, versus two guys that cheated their asses off?

LOL, good one.

RodeoSchro said:

uPtoWnNY said:

Hopefully one day, Bonds and Clemens get in. Baseball has always gone through "eras" (dead-ball era, segregated era) - why not have a wing devoted to the steroid era?

I'm not sold on Biggio as a HOFamer, but the others are no-brainers, especially Pedro.

3.000 hits and every one of them done without cheating, versus two guys that cheated their asses off?

LOL, good one.

Bonds and Clemens were already dominant players before they took it to an insane level. I feel those accomplishments should be acknowledged. I place a higher premium on cats who dominanted (in ANY sport), the elite, not the very good.

uPtoWnNY said:

Hopefully one day, Bonds and Clemens get in. Baseball has always gone through "eras" (dead-ball era, segregated era) - why not have a wing devoted to the steroid era?

I think the difference is everyone in those other eras competed on a level playing field. With PED's you have players on the juice competing against those who were not, which is why only certain players had inflated numbers rather than across the board inflation of numbers.

A wing devoted to the steroid era would be hard to pull off legally, because they'd have to include players that were never proven to have juiced and have never admitted doing so.

I think with Bonds and Clemens, the writers are so pissed off about the deception and lies that they'll probably never get voted in by them. It will be up to the Expansion Era Committee to decide whether they get in.

While I agree both Clemens and Bonds had HOF careers prior to the alleged first year of juicing, there are those who feel anybody that cheated any time during their baseball career should be kept out of the hall. That is why Pete Rose isn't in, even though his trangressions began at the tail end of his career.

There really is no right or wrong answer on what to do with alleged PED users. Those who want them to be ineligible from HOF induction on moral grounds can't ignore the HOF already inducted one of the nastiest cheaters in Ty Cobb who used to do things like sharpen his spikes and was constantly starting fights. What about Gaylord Perry? The guy never hid the fact he relied on the spitball. And we know there's already likely at least one juicer in the HOF, the self-proclaimed greatest basestealer of all time.

Pokeno4Money said:

There really is no right or wrong answer on what to do with alleged PED users. Those who want them to be ineligible from HOF induction on moral grounds can't ignore the HOF already inducted one of the nastiest cheaters in Ty Cobb who used to do things like sharpen his spikes and was constantly starting fights. What about Gaylord Perry? The guy never hid the fact he relied on the spitball. And we know there's already likely at least one juicer in the HOF, the self-proclaimed greatest basestealer of all time.

How about players who used corked bats? Or who scuffed the ball? Or who took uppers? Isn't that trying to get an edge on the competition? And during the segregated era, it wasn't a level playing field - the white players never faced the best black and latin ballplayers.

To me, it's not a cut and dried issue.

uPtoWnNY said:

RodeoSchro said:

3.000 hits and every one of them done without cheating, versus two guys that cheated their asses off?

LOL, good one.

Bonds and Clemens were already dominant players before they took it to an insane level. I feel those accomplishments should be acknowledged. I place a higher premium on cats who dominanted (in ANY sport), the elite, not the very good.

3,000 hits is elite.

Bonds and Clemens were very good before they cheated, elite after. Probably both of them would have been Hall of Famers had they not cheated, but they cheated. I notice you didn't include Mark McGwire. Why not? He dominated as much as Bonds and Clemens. But he was a cheater, too.

uPtoWnNY said:

Pokeno4Money said:

There really is no right or wrong answer on what to do with alleged PED users. Those who want them to be ineligible from HOF induction on moral grounds can't ignore the HOF already inducted one of the nastiest cheaters in Ty Cobb who used to do things like sharpen his spikes and was constantly starting fights. What about Gaylord Perry? The guy never hid the fact he relied on the spitball. And we know there's already likely at least one juicer in the HOF, the self-proclaimed greatest basestealer of all time.

How about players who used corked bats? Or who scuffed the ball? Or who took uppers? Isn't that trying to get an edge on the competition? And during the segregated era, it wasn't a level playing field - the white players never faced the best black and latin ballplayers.

To me, it's not a cut and dried issue.

The difference with corked bats and scuffed balls is that when the players are caught they are immediately punished via ejection. The PED players such as Bonds and Clemens were never caught using. As for uppers, greenies and other stimulants ... they are not performance enhancing, they don't help a guy hit a ball 20 feet farther or put 10 MPH on a guy's fastball. They simply help players get through doubleheaders or day games after night games, that sort of thing. But yes I completely agree, it's definitely not a cut and dried issue. The debate regarding the steroid era will rage on for a long, long time with no clear cut answers.

Segregation is an entirely different subject, the absence of players of color has nothing to do with whether those who did play MLB competed on a level playing field. Fortunately a lot of the great black players such as Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell and Satchell Paige all got inducted in the HOF many years ago.