This could be happening sunday!!! excited to see it.

"Kobe was hell-bent on surpassing Jordan as the greatest player in the game. His obsession with Michael was striking. Not only had he mastered many of Jordan's moves, but he affected many of M.J.'s mannerisms as well.

"When we played in Chicago that season, I orchestrated a meeting between the two stars, thinking that Michael might help shift Kobe's attitude toward selfish teamwork. After they shook hands, the first words out of Kobe's mouth were, 'You know I can kick your ass one-on-one.'" -- Phil Jackson in his 2013 book, "Eleven Rings"

***

Phil Jackson has won 11 championship rings as an NBA head coach. Six with Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls. Five with Kobe Bryant's Los Angeles Lakers.

Of the 1,973 games Jackson has presided over from his high chair, only 157 came without either Jordan or Bryant on the roster.

He is also the only person to have served as head coach for both players, at any level, which makes him an almost unquestionable authority on one of the most popular comparisons in all of sports, in all of sports history.

But Bryant disputes this claim from Jackson. All of it.

"Nah, it's a myth," Bryant said. "Phil likes to say things a lot of times to create good content, to create good stories, as most [reporters] do."

Bryant is 31 points shy of passing Jordan on the NBA's all-time scoring list, where Jordan sits in third place (32,292 points), behind Karl Malone (36,298) and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (38,387).

It's no small achievement, even if Bryant claims otherwise.

"It's really not a big deal to say I passed him for something like that," Bryant said. "It's a great accomplishment, but the true beauty is in the journey."

The truth, the whole truth, is even though every step in his career has been measured against Jordan, no one has measured those steps more than Bryant.

"Knowing Kobe the way I do, I know that's the one guy he wants to surpass in so many categories," said Lakers head coach Byron Scott, who played alongside Bryant during Bryant's rookie season. "That's the thing that drives him."

Even though Bryant has long focused on his legacy, he has also known he needed to forge one large enough to escape Jordan's shadow, to make a name for himself.

"Well, I have," Bryant said.

Yes, after time and much success, Bryant emerged from the shadow that he lived in almost since the day his NBA career began.

"I wanted eventually to be one of the best players in the league," Bryant said not long after entering the league, according to the book "The Show: The Inside Story of the Spectacular Los Angeles Lakers." "I just didn't know that other people would urge me to be that right away. Everybody was expecting me to be the next Michael."

Bryant was the first superstar to grow up with Jordan as the mold for what an NBA superstar was. In many ways, Bryant reaped the benefits (voracious fans, shoe deals, etc.). In many ways, he perverted the ideal (shot selection, particularly in light of statistical advancement).

"Without what Michael did," said Nuggets coach Brian Shaw, a former player and assistant coach for Bryant's Lakers, "Kobe wouldn't have anything to shoot for."

Every achievement brought him closer to equal footing with Jordan, but none mattered more, of course, than championships.

"Growing up looking at Magic and Russell and Michael and his run, it was all measured by that," Bryant said. "It wasn't about one championship or two. It was about, you've got to win five, you've got to win six. That was the standard."

“

Knowing Kobe the way I do, I know [Jordan's] the one guy he wants to surpass in so many categories. That's the thing that drives him.

” -- Lakers coach Byron Scott

He obsesses about titles, to the point that it has become something of a running joke (one Bryant now seems to be in on; he wore a shirt that read "RINGSSSSS" at a practice in late September). Championships are the bottom line, the trump card in the many scores Bryant, much like Jordan, feels he has to settle.

Following a Game 7 Finals win over the Boston Celtics, Bryant was asked what his fifth ring meant to him.

"Just got one more than Shaq," Bryant said. "You can take that to the bank. You know how I am: I don't forget anything."

Leading up to that Finals win, he constantly downplayed the matchup against the Celtics, who had beaten the Lakers in the 2008 Finals by embarrassing them in a 39-point Game 6 loss on the parquet in Boston.

Then after the Lakers won?

"I was just lying to you guys," Bryant told reporters. "When you're in the moment, you have to suppress that because if you get caught up in the hype of it all, you don't really play your best basketball. But I mean, you guys know what a student I am of the game. ... It meant the world to me."

So does winning not just more rings, but more rings than Jordan.

"That has been driving him for years," Scott said, "because he knows that if he gets to the sixth or the seventh championship, you've got to consider him one of the greatest if not the greatest that's ever played."

This season, Bryant disputed the notion that his high-volume shooting was him gunning after Jordan's scoring mark. All a myth, Bryant said.

"But the reality is, I've always taken pride in the building of my game," Bryant said. "If I really paid attention to numbers, if I really was hell-bent on passing records, I would've gone to college and come to the pros and been ready to play and put up big numbers then and not sit on the bench for three years [during] my first years in the league."

Another myth. Bryant put up more numbers by going directly to the NBA than he would've by going to college. It gave him a three-year head start toward the records.

Vincent LaForet/AFP/Getty ImagesKobe Bryant is now just 31 points away from passing Michael Jordan on the NBA's career scoring list.

Jordan was in his 13th season, his last with the Chicago Bulls, and was nine days shy of his 35th birthday when he took the floor at Madison Square Garden for the 1998 NBA All-Star Game. It was seen then as his final All-Star appearance, and he had a touch of the flu.

Then there was Bryant, in his second season with the Lakers and, at 19 years old, the youngest All-Star in NBA history.

"[Jordan] scored the first points of the game," Serena Roberts wrote in the New York Times. "Then he took Bryant's dunk and raised him a dunk with a couple of fall-away jumpers."

"He hit those two turnarounds,'' Bryant said then. ''And I was like, 'Cool, let's get it on.'"

Jordan said of Bryant, "'He came at me pretty early. I would if I was him. If I see someone that's maybe sick or whatever, you've got to attack him. He attacked. You know, I liked his attitude.''

Jordan won All-Star MVP with 23 points, six rebounds and eight assists. Bryant had 18 points, six rebounds and one assist. The East beat the West 135-114.

In total, there were 11 in-game encounters between the two in their careers -- eight during the regular season and three All-Star Games. Bryant always savored them.

"When I first came into the league, Michael was terrifying to everybody," he said. "Everybody was really afraid of the guy. Like really, deathly afraid of him. I never really understood that, and I was the one that was willing to challenge and learn from him and wasn't afraid to call him and ask him questions. He was really open and spoke to me a lot and helped me a lot."

[+] Enlarge

AP Photo/E.J. FlynnDespite his claims, those close to Bryant say the high bar set by Jordan fueled Kobe's NBA rise.

During their first matchup, in December 1996, they talked about post moves, fadeaway jumpers and more, Bryant said.

"Listen, man, sometimes you get some players that are cut from the same cloth," Bryant said. "Even at 17 years old, I was not afraid of anybody. He and I are very similar that way. We'll challenge anybody. We're a rare breed in that regard."

Scott thinks so.

"Jordan, back in the day, they said he was a tough guy to play with because he was so demanding," Scott said. "He was punching guys in practice and things of that sort. And Kobe is in that same cloth."

Just ask Smush Parker, who once said Bryant told him in practice, "You can't talk to me. You need more accolades under your belt before you come talk to me."

Both viewed intimidation as a motivational tactic. On Thursday, Bryant might as well have been echoing Jordan when he told his teammates at practice, "You m-----f------ are soft like Charmin in this m-----f-----. God damn, is this the type of s--- that's going on in these practices? Now I see why we've lost 20 f---ing games. We're soft like Charmin. We're soft like s---."

But for as much as they're alike, Bryant has been irked by the notion that his game is a carbon copy of Jordan's.

When asked when he first started studying Jordan, Bryant doesn't give a date. Instead, he said, "I studied everybody. Everybody. Absolutely everybody."

He mentioned Jordan, sure, but also Oscar Robertson and Bob Pettit and Walt Frazier and George Mikan and even Scott.

"I watched them all, man," Bryant said.

Jordan once said that Bryant "steals all my moves." Others have noted the similarities as well.

"Like a young Jordan, Bryant always considered himself the best opportunity for his team to score," Roland Lazenby wrote in "The Show." "The Lakers staff considered it a habit that needed breaking. Bryant, however, saw it as much more than a habit. He saw it as the essence of who he was as a basketball player, and that is why he vowed, 'I will not let them break me.'"

“

It's no secret that Kobe patterned his game after Jordan. Kobe is definitely a shadow of Michael Jordan.

” -- Former Laker Michael Cooper

Ex-Lakers defensive ace Michael Cooper remembers guarding Bryant during his pre-draft workout in Inglewood, back when Bryant was 17. Even then, Cooper noticed the similarities.

"Just the fallaway shot, where he's able to back down into the post and then turn and kick out his leg and shoot that fall-away jumper," Cooper said. "It's no secret that Kobe patterned his game after Jordan. Kobe is definitely a shadow of Michael Jordan."

In response to Jordan's claim of on-court identity theft, Bryant replied on Twitter, "Domino effect. I stole some of his ... this generation stole some of mine."

"He lived for taking that torch and carrying it on the way that MJ did," Scott said. "And I think Kobe, he wanted to take it on even better because when he leaves, it's almost like there's nobody here to leave it here for."

Indeed, no obvious successor exists.

"Somebody will just step up and take it," Bryant said. "That's what I did."

Jackson compared Bryant and Jordan at length in his most recent book and noted numerous differences: Jordan was a better leader, a tougher and more intimidating defender and didn't overplay his hand, unlike Bryant.

But even the arbiter must concede.

"Even Jordan has said that Kobe is the only player who can be compared to him," Jackson wrote, "and I have to agree."

I'll add a third player to the mix - "Mr. Clutch" Jerry West. He's right up there with Jordan and Kobe as the greatest 2-guards off all time.

uPtoWnNY said:

I'll add a third player to the mix - "Mr. Clutch" Jerry West. He's right up there with Jordan and Kobe as the greatest 2-guards off all time.

I'll take West over Kobe, though West could be argued as a point guard, too.

This is a nice milestone for Kobe, but he is still not as good of a scorer as Jordan.

I've geeked out over ranking NBA players lately thanks to this project, and in doing so I developed a metric for combining scoring volume and efficiency which I've called Score+.

The basic idea of Score+ and its variations are as follows:

• Score+ is the number of additional points a player produces per 100 possessions given all of his shooting attempts, relative to league average efficiency
• PosScore+ is the number of additional points a player produces per 100 possessions given all of his shooting attempts, relative to league average efficiency at his position (to account for different rule changes)
• TeamScore+ is the number of additional points a player produces per 100 possessions given all of his shooting attempts, relative to his team's efficiency
• Playoff Score+ is the number of additional points a player produces per 100 possessions given all of his shooting attempts, relative to the efficiency allowed by the opposing teams.

Here is a spreadsheet explaining the formulas for the first three metrics and the top seasons since 1951-52 and some career totals, and here is a spreadsheet for postseasons from 1985 on (still working on how to deal with incomplete playoff data prior to 1985).

How does Kobe stack up to Jordan? Well, here are Jordan's career averages:

Score+: 2.432

PosScore+: 2.576

TeamScore+: 1.951

Playoff Score+: 3.347

Kobe's career averages, not including the current disastrous season:

Score+: 1.585

PosScore+: 1.525

TeamScore+: 0.886

Playoff Score+: 1.691

Since they play similar roles, it's a pretty good apples to apples comparison - both faced a lot of double teams, both played with the same coach, etc. Jordan's definitely got a sizable edge, particularly in the playoffs when his scoring was nearly twice as impactful for his teams on a per possession basis.

Edit: career averages, not totals!

[Edited 12/14/14 1:50am]

It makes more sense comparing Kobe to Jordan than Lebron James. Kobe and Michael played the same position and had the same role, which is totally different from Lebron's.

Scoring list?

uPtoWnNY said:

It makes more sense comparing Kobe to Jordan than Lebron James. Kobe and Michael played the same position and had the same role, which is totally different from Lebron's.

Jordan and Kobe certainly had more similar roles, but their roles weren't worlds apart from LeBron's. All three have been the primary initiators on offense for their respective teams, and all three have been (at least at times) elite perimeter defenders.

I'm trying to recall the cente(s)r Jordan played with...

Still thinking.

Still thinking

Never mind,....

Kareem is still the greatest. Russel and Jordan right on his heels. Kobe is not far behind. As much as I can't stand Karl Malone the player, he leaves a hell of a legacy and deserves his name mentioned amoung the top 10 of all time. I think it will be interesting to see how Tim Duncan is viewed 5-10 years down the road.

To be perfectly honest, the NBA went through some real shitty years with David Stern. I'd even say crooked but there is no proof. In that way, I'm biased against Jordan's stats. Plus, I am a Pistons fan, so that doesn help.

Jordan will always be known, to me, as the guy to opened the door for cheap fouls, no-calls, traveling, etc. But he drew coverage, and put the ball in the hoop in spite of it. Phenomenal player, most definitely.

Dauphin said:

Kareem is still the greatest. Russel and Jordan right on his heels. Kobe is not far behind. As much as I can't stand Karl Malone the player, he leaves a hell of a legacy and deserves his name mentioned amoung the top 10 of all time. I think it will be interesting to see how Tim Duncan is viewed 5-10 years down the road.

To be perfectly honest, the NBA went through some real shitty years with David Stern. I'd even say crooked but there is no proof. In that way, I'm biased against Jordan's stats. Plus, I am a Pistons fan, so that doesn help.

Jordan will always be known, to me, as the guy to opened the door for cheap fouls, no-calls, traveling, etc. But he drew coverage, and put the ball in the hoop in spite of it. Phenomenal player, most definitely.

What's your top 10 or 20 list?

Mine would look something like:

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

3. Bill Russell

4. Wilt Chamberlain

5. Magic Johnson

6. Shaquille O'Neal

7. Tim Duncan

8. LeBron James

9. Larry Bird

10. Jerry West

11. Hakeem Olajuwon

12. Julius Erving

13. Oscar Robertson

14. Kobe Bryant

15. Kevin Garnett

16. David Robinson

17. Dirk Nowitzki

18. Karl Malone

19. George Mikan

20. Moses Malone

Moonbeam said:

Dauphin said:

Kareem is still the greatest. Russel and Jordan right on his heels. Kobe is not far behind. As much as I can't stand Karl Malone the player, he leaves a hell of a legacy and deserves his name mentioned amoung the top 10 of all time. I think it will be interesting to see how Tim Duncan is viewed 5-10 years down the road.

To be perfectly honest, the NBA went through some real shitty years with David Stern. I'd even say crooked but there is no proof. In that way, I'm biased against Jordan's stats. Plus, I am a Pistons fan, so that doesn help.

Jordan will always be known, to me, as the guy to opened the door for cheap fouls, no-calls, traveling, etc. But he drew coverage, and put the ball in the hoop in spite of it. Phenomenal player, most definitely.

What's your top 10 or 20 list?

Mine would look something like:

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

3. Bill Russell

4. Wilt Chamberlain

5. Magic Johnson

6. Shaquille O'Neal

7. Tim Duncan

8. LeBron James

9. Larry Bird

10. Jerry West

11. Hakeem Olajuwon

12. Julius Erving

13. Oscar Robertson

14. Kobe Bryant

15. Kevin Garnett

16. David Robinson

17. Dirk Nowitzki

18. Karl Malone

19. George Mikan

20. Moses Malone

1. Wilt

2. Jordan

3. Russell

4. Oscar

5. Kareem

6. Magic

7. Bird

8. Hakeem

9. West

10. Duncan

11. Shaq

12. Kobe

13. Havlicek

14. Moses Malone

15. Dr. J

Kobe was Jordan clone the 1st 10 years of his career.

He even tried to talk like Jordan.

We didn't see the real Kobe until the incident in Denver.

Congrats to Kobe. Catching Jordan is no small feat.

It's so hard putting together that list. You can include people who dominated their position, people who changed the game, marquee players, people who excelled at getting wins, etc. To me, there are Four that stand out as members of all the above:

Kareem
Bill Russell
Michael Jordan

Shaquille O'Neal

Other players either dominated their positions, or were central marquee players:

Chamberlain
Magic
Bird
Dr. J
West

One could argue that the Magic/Bird feud changed the game, as did Chamberlain and Dr. J, in terms of raising the popularity of the sport.

Part of me really wants to put Chamberlain at the top of the list. His numbers are outragous. However, he only has 2 rings to show for it as opposed to Kareem's 6. If he makes my top 5, he's probably number 2.

Currently, we have 3 players who could make a case for greatness, but they haven't really changed the game:

Kobe
LeBron
Duncan

Duncan is a bit of a mystery. He's going to be remembered, like Malone, as a tough presence who accumulated wins. His number of Rings eclipses Malone. He's sitting on 5, like Kobe. With both Duncan and Kobe coming toward the end of their careers, I'm curious to see how they will be remembered 20-30 years down the road.

I'm always amazed that folks always talk about how important defense is................yet Pippen and Rodman are never mentioned on this type of lists. I don't get it. I'd take Pippne over Bird 7 days a week.

Graycap23 said:

I'm always amazed that folks always talk about how important defense is................yet Pippen and Rodman are never mentioned on this type of lists. I don't get it. I'd take Pippne over Bird 7 days a week.

Not me. Bird was a beast. Old Bird used to eat up Young Pippen.

Bird was a soild defenseman. Oscar Robinson is similarly well rounded, and is a good comparison for Bird, imo. I'd take either over Pippen. Those guys show that having a strong defense is good, but not vital to being counted amoungst the best.

But again... I'm a Piston fan, so I have that bias

Dauphin said:

Graycap23 said:

I'm always amazed that folks always talk about how important defense is................yet Pippen and Rodman are never mentioned on this type of lists. I don't get it. I'd take Pippne over Bird 7 days a week.

Not me. Bird was a beast. Old Bird used to eat up Young Pippen.

Bird was a soild defenseman. Oscar Robinson is similarly well rounded, and is a good comparison for Bird, imo. I'd take either over Pippen. Those guys show that having a strong defense is good, but not vital to being counted amoungst the best.

But again... I'm a Piston fan, so I have that bias

I agree with this. Pippen was a great defender, and has a great case to be considered the best perimeter defender of all time. But I think there are several bigs who have had a bigger impact on the defensive end. Meanwhile, I think Bird has a case to be considered as the best offensive player ever, without any qualification. I probably wouldn't put him there, but he's in the conversation, I think.

I've expanded my list to the top 110. Not saying I'm an expert or anything, but I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about it:

[1] Michael Jordan

[2] Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[3] Bill Russell

[4] Wilt Chamberlain

[5] Magic Johnson

[6] Shaquille O'Neal

[7] Tim Duncan

[8] LeBron James

[9] Larry Bird

[10] Jerry West

[11] Hakeem Olajuwon

[12] Julius Erving

[13] Oscar Robertson

[14] Kobe Bryant

[15] Kevin Garnett

[16] David Robinson

[17] Dirk Nowitzki

[18] Karl Malone

[19] George Mikan

[20] Moses Malone

[21] Charles Barkley

[22] Walt Frazier

[23] Bob Pettit

[24] Dwyane Wade

[25] Scottie Pippen

[26] John Stockton

[27] Steve Nash

[28] Patrick Ewing

[29] John Havlicek

[30] Clyde Drexler

[31] Elgin Baylor

[32] Artis Gilmore

[33] Gary Payton

[34] Reggie Miller

[35] Rick Barry

[36] Paul Pierce

[37] Ray Allen

[38] Chris Paul

[39] Dwight Howard

[40] Dolph Schayes

[41] Isiah Thomas

[42] Kevin Durant

[43] Kevin McHale

[44] Willis Reed

[45] Adrian Dantley

[46] Robert Parish

[47] George Gervin

[48] Jason Kidd

[49] Alex English

[50] Pau Gasol

[51] Alonzo Mourning

[52] Dave Cowens

[53] Bob Lanier

[54] Dikembe Mutombo

[55] Dominique Wilkins

[56] Kevin Johnson

[57] Chauncey Billups

[58] Tracy McGrady

[59] Sam Jones

[60] Nate Thurmond

[61] Paul Arizin

[62] Manu Ginobili

[63] Bob Cousy

[64] Sidney Moncrief

[65] Elvin Hayes

[66] Allen Iverson

[67] James Worthy

[68] Bob McAdoo

[69] Dennis Rodman

[70] Wes Unseld

[71] Neil Johnston

[72] Vince Carter

[73] Bill Walton

[74] Joe Dumars

[75] Ben Wallace

[76] Grant Hill

[77] Maurice Cheeks

[78] Bernard King

[79] Bill Sharman

[80] Horace Grant

[81] Rasheed Wallace

[82] Cliff Hagan

[83] Tony Parker

[84] Walt Bellamy

[85] Chris Bosh

[86] Chris Webber

[87] Jerry Lucas

[88] Larry Nance

[89] Marques Johnson

[90] Shawn Marion

[91] Terry Porter

[92] Shawn Kemp

[93] Vern Mikkelsen

[94] Tiny Archibald

[95] Detlef Schrempf

[96] Anfernee Hardaway

[97] Jack Sikma

[98] Yao Ming

[99] Bobby Jones

[100] Elton Brand

[101] Carmelo Anthony

[102] Dan Issel

[103] Buck Williams

[104] Gus Williams

[105] Chris Mullin

[106] Dennis Johnson

[107] Mark Price

[108] Marcus Camby

[109] George Yardley

[110] Amar'e Stoudemire

^ Oscar at 13? No no no. Top 5 easily. He could do anything he wanted to on the court. He set the standard.

Best offensive player? Kareem, hands down. That sky hook was deadliest weapon in NBA history.

Moonbeam said:

Dauphin said:

Not me. Bird was a beast. Old Bird used to eat up Young Pippen.

Bird was a soild defenseman. Oscar Robinson is similarly well rounded, and is a good comparison for Bird, imo. I'd take either over Pippen. Those guys show that having a strong defense is good, but not vital to being counted amoungst the best.

But again... I'm a Piston fan, so I have that bias

I agree with this. Pippen was a great defender, and has a great case to be considered the best perimeter defender of all time. But I think there are several bigs who have had a bigger impact on the defensive end. Meanwhile, I think Bird has a case to be considered as the best offensive player ever, without any qualification. I probably wouldn't put him there, but he's in the conversation, I think.

U know what's funny.

Pippen has more assist, rebounds, blocks and titles than Bird.

Lol................

[Edited 12/16/14 6:19am]

Kobe is one of the GREATEST of all time, like it (him) or not

and of course an L.A. LAKERS LEGEND

Graycap23 said:

Moonbeam said:

I agree with this. Pippen was a great defender, and has a great case to be considered the best perimeter defender of all time. But I think there are several bigs who have had a bigger impact on the defensive end. Meanwhile, I think Bird has a case to be considered as the best offensive player ever, without any qualification. I probably wouldn't put him there, but he's in the conversation, I think.

U know what's funny.

Pippen has more assist, rebounds, blocks and titles than Bird.

Lol................

[Edited 12/16/14 6:19am]

Pippen played like 4 seasons longer. Bird beats Pippen in total boards, nonetheless! If you break down Per Game stats, you'll find that Bird beats Pippen in rebounds and assists, and ties him in blocks.

How much credit does Craig, Armstrong, Kukoc, and specifically Jordan get in terms of rings and assists?

Who acted like a trick when Tony Kukoc was told to take the final shot in a playoff game?

A good comparison to Pippen for Defensive player might be Gary Peyton. Played in the same time period. Has similar stats. Just missing the number of rings.

Dauphin said:

Graycap23 said:

U know what's funny.

Pippen has more assist, rebounds, blocks and titles than Bird.

Lol................

[Edited 12/16/14 6:19am]

Pippen played like 4 seasons longer. Bird beats Pippen in total boards, nonetheless! If you break down Per Game stats, you'll find that Bird beats Pippen in rebounds and assists, and ties him in blocks.

How much credit does Craig, Armstrong, Kukoc, and specifically Jordan get in terms of rings and assists?

Who acted like a trick when Tony Kukoc was told to take the final shot in a playoff game?

A good comparison to Pippen for Defensive player might be Gary Peyton. Played in the same time period. Has similar stats. Just missing the number of rings.

Per game relates more 2 opportunies (shots) than anything else. Bird was option 1. Scotties was option 2, 3 or 4. That said, defense is wher he shined and there in zero comparsion at the end of the court. If Pippen played with Mchale, Parish & DJ he might have 10 rings.

Graycap23 said:

Dauphin said:

Pippen played like 4 seasons longer. Bird beats Pippen in total boards, nonetheless! If you break down Per Game stats, you'll find that Bird beats Pippen in rebounds and assists, and ties him in blocks.

How much credit does Craig, Armstrong, Kukoc, and specifically Jordan get in terms of rings and assists?

Who acted like a trick when Tony Kukoc was told to take the final shot in a playoff game?

A good comparison to Pippen for Defensive player might be Gary Peyton. Played in the same time period. Has similar stats. Just missing the number of rings.

Per game relates more 2 opportunies (shots) than anything else. Bird was option 1. Scotties was option 2, 3 or 4. That said, defense is wher he shined and there in zero comparsion at the end of the court. If Pippen played with Mchale, Parish & DJ he might have 10 rings.

The Per Game was refering more to Rebounds per game, Assists per game, and Blocks per game. Those have less to do with opportunities as Option 1 than anything else.

Back in the day, the Celtics didn't run with a pure point guard, and really moved the ball around a lot. They played a lot of half court sets, screens and back picks with the 3-pt threat always out there. They needed a well-rounded player as the centerpiece of that offense. One that would score, pass, and still be strong enough to seal a screen or be a threat on a hedge or switch, as well as fight for the offensive boards.

Jackson's Triangle was also slow-paced. The Triple post mentality with Pippen as wing feeding the high post. However, when Pippen went to the TrailBlazers, they played that modern NBA set which meshed up-tempto motion with post isolation. Man, he had a SQUAD too. Rasheed, Jermaine O'Neal, Damon Stoudamire, Steve Smith, Bonzi Wells. And what did they get? Squatted on by the Lakers.

Dauphin said:

Graycap23 said:

Per game relates more 2 opportunies (shots) than anything else. Bird was option 1. Scotties was option 2, 3 or 4. That said, defense is wher he shined and there in zero comparsion at the end of the court. If Pippen played with Mchale, Parish & DJ he might have 10 rings.

The Per Game was refering more to Rebounds per game, Assists per game, and Blocks per game. Those have less to do with opportunities as Option 1 than anything else.

Back in the day, the Celtics didn't run with a pure point guard, and really moved the ball around a lot. They played a lot of half court sets, screens and back picks with the 3-pt threat always out there. They needed a well-rounded player as the centerpiece of that offense. One that would score, pass, and still be strong enough to seal a screen or be a threat on a hedge or switch, as well as fight for the offensive boards.

Jackson's Triangle was also slow-paced. The Triple post mentality with Pippen as wing feeding the high post. However, when Pippen went to the TrailBlazers, they played that modern NBA set which meshed up-tempto motion with post isolation. Man, he had a SQUAD too. Rasheed, Jermaine O'Neal, Damon Stoudamire, Steve Smith, Bonzi Wells. And what did they get? Squatted on by the Lakers.

Most 1st year teams tend 2 lose 2 teams that are better coached and have been together longer.

Squatted? The lakres played the last 5 minutes of game 7 better. The Blazers choked, were out coached and fell apart.

[Edited 12/16/14 12:11pm]

Warriors are playing sick basketball - BIG matchup tonight with the Grizzlies, who are having a great season too.

Really impressed with what Kidd is doing in Milwaukee. Those young Bucks are playing with heart.

I didn't expect much from my Knicks, but 5-21????????? WTF????

Biggest disappointment? Charlotte. I heard they're looking to trade Lance Stephenson already - dayum.

Really shocked the Kings fired their coach. I heard management is looking at George Karl. Wonder how he'd get along with Cousins.

uPtoWnNY said:

Warriors are playing sick basketball - BIG matchup tonight with the Grizzlies, who are having a great season too.

Really impressed with what Kidd is doing in Milwaukee. Those young Bucks are playing with heart.

I didn't expect much from my Knicks, but 5-21????????? WTF????

Biggest disappointment? Charlotte. I heard they're looking to trade Lance Stephenson already - dayum.

Really shocked the Kings fired their coach. I heard management is looking at George Karl. Wonder how he'd get along with Cousins.

Man.............Phil did something next 2 NOTHING in the off season.

Graycap23 said:

uPtoWnNY said:

Warriors are playing sick basketball - BIG matchup tonight with the Grizzlies, who are having a great season too.

Really impressed with what Kidd is doing in Milwaukee. Those young Bucks are playing with heart.

I didn't expect much from my Knicks, but 5-21????????? WTF????

Biggest disappointment? Charlotte. I heard they're looking to trade Lance Stephenson already - dayum.

Really shocked the Kings fired their coach. I heard management is looking at George Karl. Wonder how he'd get along with Cousins.

Man.............Phil did something next 2 NOTHING in the off season.

Nothing much he can do until Amar'e & Bargnani's contracts come off the books.

uPtoWnNY said:

Graycap23 said:

Man.............Phil did something next 2 NOTHING in the off season.

Nothing much he can do until Amar'e & Bargnani's contracts come off the books.

Really? I've seen scrub like Joe Johnson traded with $100mil left on a contract.

uPtoWnNY said:

^ Oscar at 13? No no no. Top 5 easily. He could do anything he wanted to on the court. He set the standard.

Best offensive player? Kareem, hands down. That sky hook was deadliest weapon in NBA history.

Yeah, Oscar was amazingly good. To be among the top 5, though? That's really rarefied air. What argument does he have over someone like Magic, Shaq, or Duncan? I think all of those guys may have had more success with those Cincinnati squads than Oscar did.