Staying up makes me feel good too, but then when the mania dies down, I get into sad moods, but it's a good time to watch funny shows and laugh hard. Music helps too, but not like it used to, I have to be in the mood for it. Now I just get down over what used to be.

JustErin said:

XxAxX said:

have u been talking to tremolina?

no. i posted it because this type of music can help a person fall asleep. here's another.

XxAxX said:

JustErin said:

XxAxX said: have u been talking to tremolina?

no. i posted it because this type of music can help a person fall asleep. here's another.

Dude...she's Canadian.

They have their own form of sleep-inducing music.

...Damn, I think I nodded off just posting the clip...

The most relaxing "song" ever. (No, really - they actually studied it.)

damosuzuki said:

Not to derail this thread, but since someone proposed using a homeopathic remedy in this thread, I think a few facts about homeopathy should be presented, and I would encourage the OP to do some of her own investigation before spending a cent on any homeopathic product because you’ll likely be paying for nothing. In my opinion, it’s a pure sham treatment, and there’s no established medical literature that shows homeopathic treatments provide anything more than placebo benefit.

Homeopathy is based on two basic principles:

1) The law of similars: IE you treat a symptom with an ingredient that would tend to provoke that very symptom.

2) You don’t do that.

If that seems a little odd, even ridiculous, then welcome to the upside down, logically tortured world of homeopathy. In a homeopathic treatment, a sleeping aid might contain caffeine because homeopaths believe that a disorder can be treated by dosages of a substance that provoke those same symptoms. However, they also believe that the dosage has to be small – extremely small, and that’s where things leave the boundaries of reality and enter truly magical belief systems.

Homeopaths dilute (in water usually, though apparently they may use alcohol) their solutions repeatedly to the extent that there is generally no chance of any trace amount of the active ingredient left. The ‘Rescue Sleep’ product recommended in this thread apparently has a ‘5X’ dilution. I wasn’t able to find the concentration on the product's website, but I did find the dilution here: http://well.ca/products/b...13744.html. This means that the original substance has been diluted 1/10 * 1/10 * 1/10 * 1/10 * 1/10 times, and should be in the product at a concentration of 1 part in 100,000.

That’s not much – but it’s actually quite a bit in comparison to many homeopathic remedies, which often dilute their product to such an extent that there’s almost zero chance that there’s a trace molecule of the original solution left. For example:

Oscillococcinum, a 200C product "for the relief of colds and flu-like symptoms," involves "dilutions" that are even more far-fetched. Its "active ingredient" is prepared by incubating small amounts of a freshly killed duck's liver and heart for 40 days. The resultant solution is then filtered, freeze-dried, rehydrated, repeatedly diluted, and impregnated into sugar granules. If a single molecule of the duck's heart or liver were to survive the dilution, its concentration would be 1 in 100²⁰⁰. This huge number, which has 400 zeroes, is vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules in the universe (about one googol, which is a 1 followed by 100 zeroes). In its February 17, 1997, issue, U.S. News & World Report noted that only one duck per year is needed to manufacture the product, which had total sales of $20 million in 1996. The magazine dubbed that unlucky bird "the $20-million duck."

http://www.quackwatch.com...homeo.html

There are many excellent sites that expose homeopathy as what it is: a sham treatment based on magical beliefs. I like the write-up done on it at quackwatch, which I linked to above but there are tons of other resources that point it out. The Wikipedia page gives a good summary of homepathic claims. If anyone has some time to kill I’d recommend going through some of the youtube videos posted by homeopaths and letting them explain what they believe in their own words. I’m at work right now and can’t link to any of them, but a lot of them are pretty entertaining in an ‘I’m listening to a delusional, perhaps borderline insane person’ sort of way.

As for the specific product mentioned:

http://www.sleep-aids.com...bach-safe/

http://www.livestrong.com...ep-remedy/

Several medical studies, including a May 2009 systematic review published in the "BMC Complementary and Alternative Medicine," have concluded that the Bach remedy products are safe, but that there's no clinical evidence showing them to be more effective than placebos.

[Edited 2/18/12 6:52am]

Well if this doesn't put Erin to sleep...

I keed, I keed...

damosuzuki said:

Aelis said:

The problem with science, any science (psychology included) is partial approach. That's why, in the long run, it doesn't give results.

That doesn’t even warrant a response really, but for the record: the array of treatments & technology available to us provide pretty good results. It goes without saying but I’ll say anyway that the modern scientific era has had many medical home runs to its name and in almost every area we’ve made substantial incremental improvements. I don’t think I need to substantiate that statement.

No wise person would ever be against progress. I support all the technical innovation and research done in a clever way and do think it's necessary!

I was reffering to a bigger picture, somehow - for example, so many people dying from cancer after all the work and money invested; could it be that the way it is approached is not the optimal one? Could it be that, when it comes to cancer, the western countries don't really offer a satisfying array of treatments so that one can really choose? There is some great literature on that, by professional medical experts who were deeply unsatisfied with the way it's dealt with (at least here in Europe).

Or, for instance, what will we ever really know about the brain if we observe it with no regards to the rest of the body? Can the science ever admit that it simply doesn't know something? How flexible is it willing to be in order to get closer to the complexity of life? Just wondering, I think those are valid questions. And (some of them) not to be taken literally word by word. Anyway, this is what I meant, not that science is unnecessary and that we could do without. Peace.

Aelis said:

damosuzuki said:

That doesn’t even warrant a response really, but for the record: the array of treatments & technology available to us provide pretty good results. It goes without saying but I’ll say anyway that the modern scientific era has had many medical home runs to its name and in almost every area we’ve made substantial incremental improvements. I don’t think I need to substantiate that statement.

No wise person would ever be against progress. I support all the technical innovation and research done in a clever way and do think it's necessary!

I was reffering to a bigger picture, somehow - for example, so many people dying from cancer after all the work and money invested; could it be that the way it is approached is not the optimal one? Could it be that, when it comes to cancer, the western countries don't really offer a satisfying array of treatments so that one can really choose? There is some great literature on that, by professional medical experts who were deeply unsatisfied with the way it's dealt with (at least here in Europe).

Or, for instance, what will we ever really know about the brain if we observe it with no regards to the rest of the body? Can the science ever admit that it simply doesn't know something? How flexible is it willing to be in order to get closer to the complexity of life? Just wondering, I think those are valid questions. And (some of them) not to be taken literally word by word. Anyway, this is what I meant, not that science is unnecessary and that we could do without. Peace.

We’re well outside the boundaries of the thread now (mostly my fault, I know), so all I’ll say in conclusion is that all of these things can be on the table. I’m not sure what kind of approaches you’re arguing for, but they can all be part of the conversation – no one is stopping their proponents from making their case. However, their arguments have to be vetted and their evidence reviewed, and that’s where we get back to things like homeopathy, where there’s no established means of the process actually working (magical, mysterious properties have to be invoked) and no one has shown that the treatment has any impact above placebo.

And I doubt their are many scientists who can't admit to ignorance. Scientists as a group, if anything, are more likely than almost anyone else to be extremely aware of how much they do not know.

Whatever alternative modalities you support can be part of the discussion, but their outcome has to be measured against the best currently available medical treatments, and if the alternative outcome isn’t better, then, as I said earlier, the supporter is arguing from ideology instead of evidence and logic.

[Edited 2/23/12 3:59am]

JustErin said:

Thanks, Genesia!

What about melatonin? Know anything about it? I know a few people who swear by that.

Rescue Sleep:

When sleeplessness is triggered by repetitive thoughts and stress, two quick sprays to your tongue help calm and quiet your mind, enabling you to sleep naturally and wake refreshed.

I like the sound of that.

but this sounds a bit weird:

Rescue Sleep is totally natural and contains six of the 38 Bach® Flower Essences: Rock Rose for terror and panic, Impatiens for irritation and impatience, Clematis for inattentiveness, Star of Bethlehem for shock, Cherry Plum for irrational thoughts, and White Chestnut for relief from repetitive thoughts.

Bach homeopathic remedies are great. Don't be put off by the names of the flower essences. Those are just their commercial monikers and a heck of a lot easier to pronounce than their Latin botanical names.

babynoz said:

Meditation is good for training the mind to tame those restless thoughts. For a sleep aid valerian root works great for me where melatonin gave me headaches.

How do you take your Valerian root? Do you do tincture?

Valerian's very popular here but it's sold in supermarkets normally in tea form, and lord it stinks up the house to high hell...I always have to have Valerian teas that have something else added to them to mask that darned smell

Ottensen said:

babynoz said:

Meditation is good for training the mind to tame those restless thoughts. For a sleep aid valerian root works great for me where melatonin gave me headaches.

How do you take your Valerian root? Do you do tincture?

Valerian's very popular here but it's sold in supermarkets normally in tea form, and lord it stinks up the house to high hell...I always have to have Valerian teas that have something else added to them to mask that darned smell

[img:$uid]http://www.dm-drogeriemarkt.de/cms/servlet/linkableblob/de_homepage/36508/data/media_1-data.png?v=1324297282000[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.dm-drogeriemarkt.de/cms/servlet/linkableblob/de_homepage/36504/data/media_1-data.png?v=1324297282000[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.dm-drogeriemarkt.de/cms/servlet/linkableblob/de_homepage/36512/data/media_1-data.png?v=1324297282000[/img:$uid]

You should check out DM. Not only do they have a HUGE selection there, but they also have a very good business approach as far as treatment of employees and the environment are concerned. My favorite drugstore!

I found this article today and thought it was interesting. We may be biologically programmed not to sleep through the night...

The myth of the eight-hour sleep

By Stephanie HegartyBBC World Service

In the early 1990s, psychiatrist Thomas Wehr conducted an experiment in which a group of people were plunged into darkness for 14 hours every day for a month.

It took some time for their sleep to regulate but by the fourth week the subjects had settled into a very distinct sleeping pattern. They slept first for four hours, then woke for one or two hours before falling into a second four-hour sleep.

Though sleep scientists were impressed by the study, among the general public the idea that we must sleep for eight consecutive hours persists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news...e-16964783

KoolEaze said:

Ottensen said:

How do you take your Valerian root? Do you do tincture?

Valerian's very popular here but it's sold in supermarkets normally in tea form, and lord it stinks up the house to high hell...I always have to have Valerian teas that have something else added to them to mask that darned smell

[img:$uid]http://www.dm-drogeriemarkt.de/cms/servlet/linkableblob/de_homepage/36508/data/media_1-data.png?v=1324297282000[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.dm-drogeriemarkt.de/cms/servlet/linkableblob/de_homepage/36504/data/media_1-data.png?v=1324297282000[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.dm-drogeriemarkt.de/cms/servlet/linkableblob/de_homepage/36512/data/media_1-data.png?v=1324297282000[/img:$uid]

You should check out DM. Not only do they have a HUGE selection there, but they also have a very good business approach as far as treatment of employees and the environment are concerned. My favorite drugstore!

Awesome! I LURVE DM..they have such cool stuff and a gigantic selection of Allnatura food products as well! The nearest DM is all the way near Altona bahnhof for me, though- and since I moved to a neighborhood further west, it's too far for my lazy ass to go to on the regular...I do have a Budni 100 meters from my flat that should have this!

because I tell you, anything I can use in exchange for the stinky-stank of Baldrian tea

Ottensen said:

babynoz said:

Meditation is good for training the mind to tame those restless thoughts. For a sleep aid valerian root works great for me where melatonin gave me headaches.

How do you take your Valerian root? Do you do tincture?

Valerian's very popular here but it's sold in supermarkets normally in tea form, and lord it stinks up the house to high hell...I always have to have Valerian teas that have something else added to them to mask that darned smell

I know...I usually take the capsules and even they stink,

You can also get a tea called Celestial Seasonings Sleepy Time extra that contains a smaller dose of valerian than the capsule. It's tasty and smells okay too.

babynoz said:

Ottensen said:

How do you take your Valerian root? Do you do tincture?

Valerian's very popular here but it's sold in supermarkets normally in tea form, and lord it stinks up the house to high hell...I always have to have Valerian teas that have something else added to them to mask that darned smell

I know...I usually take the capsules and even they stink,

You can also get a tea called Celestial Seasonings Sleepy Time extra that contains a smaller dose of valerian than the capsule. It's tasty and smells okay too.

We don't have Celestial Seasonings over here . I actually used to LOVE to drink that tea back in the day---so now they've kicked it up with Valerian inside, huh???

Ottensen said:

babynoz said:

I know...I usually take the capsules and even they stink,

You can also get a tea called Celestial Seasonings Sleepy Time extra that contains a smaller dose of valerian than the capsule. It's tasty and smells okay too.

We don't have Celestial Seasonings over here . I actually used to LOVE to drink that tea back in the day---so now they've kicked it up with Valerian inside, huh???

omg! I used to drink this as a kid!

Deadcake said:

Ottensen said:

We don't have Celestial Seasonings over here . I actually used to LOVE to drink that tea back in the day---so now they've kicked it up with Valerian inside, huh???

omg! I used to drink this as a kid!

That's exactly the one I was talking about I loved the bear on the package You know, in retrospect, no wonder I was such a relaxed kid...I was downing this sleep tea every other day

Ottensen said:

Genesia said:

I found this article today and thought it was interesting. We may be biologically programmed not to sleep through the night...

The myth of the eight-hour sleep

By Stephanie HegartyBBC World Service

We often worry about lying awake in the middle of the night - but it could be good for you. A growing body of evidence from both science and history suggests that the eight-hour sleep may be unnatural.

In the early 1990s, psychiatrist Thomas Wehr conducted an experiment in which a group of people were plunged into darkness for 14 hours every day for a month.

It took some time for their sleep to regulate but by the fourth week the subjects had settled into a very distinct sleeping pattern. They slept first for four hours, then woke for one or two hours before falling into a second four-hour sleep.

Though sleep scientists were impressed by the study, among the general public the idea that we must sleep for eight consecutive hours persists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news...e-16964783

I remember hearing about two studies in the early '80's:

1. A doctor found that when people who suffered from depression were woken up in the middle of the night, and kept awake for just a few minutes, their depression symptoms decreased markedly; and

2. Some people were put in a mine (or some other enclosed environment, I can't remember) and all their clocks were taken away. So they had no idea what time it was, or if the sun was up or not. After a few weeks, their sleep hours had decreased to four hours per 24-hour time period.

RodeoSchro said:

Genesia said:

I found this article today and thought it was interesting. We may be biologically programmed not to sleep through the night...

The myth of the eight-hour sleep

By Stephanie HegartyBBC World Service

We often worry about lying awake in the middle of the night - but it could be good for you. A growing body of evidence from both science and history suggests that the eight-hour sleep may be unnatural.

In the early 1990s, psychiatrist Thomas Wehr conducted an experiment in which a group of people were plunged into darkness for 14 hours every day for a month.

It took some time for their sleep to regulate but by the fourth week the subjects had settled into a very distinct sleeping pattern. They slept first for four hours, then woke for one or two hours before falling into a second four-hour sleep.

Though sleep scientists were impressed by the study, among the general public the idea that we must sleep for eight consecutive hours persists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news...e-16964783

I remember hearing about two studies in the early '80's:

1. A doctor found that when people who suffered from depression were woken up in the middle of the night, and kept awake for just a few minutes, their depression symptoms decreased markedly; and

2. Some people were put in a mine (or some other enclosed environment, I can't remember) and all their clocks were taken away. So they had no idea what time it was, or if the sun was up or not. After a few weeks, their sleep hours had decreased to four hours per 24-hour time period.

I am absolutely useless unless I get at least 6-1/2 hours of sleep - and 7 is better. I can't imagine living down a mine would change that.

I actually found this article pretty comforting - and am trying to get a copy of Roger Ekirch's book (cited in the article). My sleep has sort of gone haywire with my hormonal issues. After a lifetime of sleeping well pretty much all the time, I'm awake at all hours - and it's causing no small amount of panic and concern. I do not want to take Ambien for the rest of my life, so if there's a way to reconcile what's going on (ie, if simply changing my sleep habits will do it), I'm ready to give it a shot.

oh...so this is a mid life thing? Shit...I just recently became nocturnal and I have been attempting to adjust again....

StillGotIt said:

oh...so this is a mid life thing? Shit...I just recently became nocturnal and I have been attempting to adjust again....

It certainly can be. (Though I don't know that that's Erin's problem.)

Since about last November, I've struggled with middle of the night wakefulness. In the beginning, I would panic, which just made it worse (because the adrenaline made it impossible to get back to sleep). I'm staying calmer now - and just letting myself drift in and out of sleep as my body wills it. I'm starting my "in bed hours" earlier, though - trying to be asleep by 10 every night. If I start earlier, it isn't as devastating if I wake up at 4.

RodeoSchro said:

Genesia said:

I found this article today and thought it was interesting. We may be biologically programmed not to sleep through the night...

The myth of the eight-hour sleep

By Stephanie HegartyBBC World Service

We often worry about lying awake in the middle of the night - but it could be good for you. A growing body of evidence from both science and history suggests that the eight-hour sleep may be unnatural.

In the early 1990s, psychiatrist Thomas Wehr conducted an experiment in which a group of people were plunged into darkness for 14 hours every day for a month.

It took some time for their sleep to regulate but by the fourth week the subjects had settled into a very distinct sleeping pattern. They slept first for four hours, then woke for one or two hours before falling into a second four-hour sleep.

Though sleep scientists were impressed by the study, among the general public the idea that we must sleep for eight consecutive hours persists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news...e-16964783

Theres an interesting book by Jeff Warren called "The Head Trip" which goes into detail about many stages of consciuosness including this pattern of sleep. He calls the period of wakefulness in between sleep cycles "the watch" and it was apparently the norm before the advent of electric lightling.

Ottensen said:

babynoz said:

I know...I usually take the capsules and even they stink,

You can also get a tea called Celestial Seasonings Sleepy Time extra that contains a smaller dose of valerian than the capsule. It's tasty and smells okay too.

We don't have Celestial Seasonings over here . I actually used to LOVE to drink that tea back in the day---so now they've kicked it up with Valerian inside, huh???

You can order it online too. I like valerian because I don't feel groggy or get headaches from it.

Lately I haven't had any because I've been taking meclizine for my vertigo and it makes me drowsy.

Deadcake said:

RodeoSchro said:

I remember hearing about two studies in the early '80's:

1. A doctor found that when people who suffered from depression were woken up in the middle of the night, and kept awake for just a few minutes, their depression symptoms decreased markedly; and

2. Some people were put in a mine (or some other enclosed environment, I can't remember) and all their clocks were taken away. So they had no idea what time it was, or if the sun was up or not. After a few weeks, their sleep hours had decreased to four hours per 24-hour time period.

Wasn't that the biosphere crew? I thought they slept roughly 2 shifts of 4 hours each at opposite times of the day like spaniards

I heard people reverted to 9 hour sleep patterns and a 25 hour day.

NDRU said:

Deadcake said:

NDRU said:

I heard people reverted to 9 hour sleep patterns and a 25 hour day.

That's not what I read in Time magazine!

That's that magazine with the articles about how people adjust time cycles depending on the situation?

NDRU said:

Genesia said:

I found this article today and thought it was interesting. We may be biologically programmed not to sleep through the night...

The myth of the eight-hour sleep

By Stephanie HegartyBBC World Service

We often worry about lying awake in the middle of the night - but it could be good for you. A growing body of evidence from both science and history suggests that the eight-hour sleep may be unnatural.

In the early 1990s, psychiatrist Thomas Wehr conducted an experiment in which a group of people were plunged into darkness for 14 hours every day for a month.

It took some time for their sleep to regulate but by the fourth week the subjects had settled into a very distinct sleeping pattern. They slept first for four hours, then woke for one or two hours before falling into a second four-hour sleep.

Though sleep scientists were impressed by the study, among the general public the idea that we must sleep for eight consecutive hours persists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news...e-16964783

I have noticed recently that no matter how tired/sleepy I am I always wake up after four/five hours. I may go back to sleep after a few minutes for a few more hours, but I can't remember the last time I've slept for eight hours straight.