NDRU said:

Because of the nature of sleep and of insomnia, I don't actually think it matters whether homeopathic remedies are scientifically sound or not.

If it is a sham but you believe it works, that is good enough to get some sleep. I mean, people have been recommending counting sheep for years!

I don't know the science of homeopathy, but I would certainly try it for insomnia, if not for cancer.

I can go with what you’ve said to an extent. Insomnia can be tied up with psychological/stress problems. The placebo effect is real, and someone who takes a homeopathic remedy and believes in it will experience that effect and may benefit. I can have some sympathy with someone who makes that choice, though I certainly think they’re making a bad decision and would be much better served by actually going to a doctor and getting something truly effective. The issue is with the integrity of companies that market these products that are nothing more than sugar pills or mists completely free of any real content. For a company to claim their product has a medical effect when it has no plausible means of providing a benefit and in fact has been shown to do nothing more than provide placebo benefit is completely unethical. There are guidelines that doctors have to abide by that prevent them from providing a placebo, and these companies abuse their exemption from those guidelines and line their pockets with sales of products that literally contain nothing.

People can make whatever choices they like, but I hope before anyone goes out and actually gives a homeopath manufacturer any money they actually spend some time to review what it is these companies are selling.

For the record, here’s a few clips that I think tell the story quite well:

British doctor, psychologist & columnist/author Ben Goldeacre:

CBC's (Canadian public tv) Marketplace did a good episode where they allowed the homeopath manufacturers a chance to give their side of the story. Their vacuous answers speak volumes.

[Edited 2/18/12 17:51pm]

Genesia said:

damosuzuki said:

Somebody's always gotta piss in the cornflakes. Have you ever used Rescue Sleep? If not, how do you know whether it works or doesn't? It works for me. And when I am awake at 3 a.m. (with my alarm set to go off at 6), that is all that matters.

You do not have to take a medicine to know whether or not it is effective. It can be tested, as Rescue Sleep has been, and you can review the results of those tests. When testing a product the makers, before marketing the product, should show that it is at least as effective as the best available alternate medical treatment, and at minimum they should be able to prove that it demonstrates greater efficacy than the placebo effect. I linked to one article attesting to the fact that Rescue Sleep has no effect beyond placebo in my first post. Here’s a link to a systemic review of flower remedies provided by the same company that produces rescue sleep:

http://www.smw.ch/content...79/?ref=nf

Note that the mode of action depends on ‘energy – In other words, it has no plausible mechanism for efficacy, but instead depends in what can be called magic. The product has not been shown in a clinical trial to demonstrate any effect above placebo. Believe what you like, but I don’t see why anyone would willingly give their money to a company that markets as medicine something that gives no demonstrable benefit and doesn’t appear to be based on the best available evidence and techniques but rather is based on Victorian era pseudo-science.

[Edited 2/18/12 18:03pm]

Sex always puts me to sleep. (After the sex that is)

Melatonin works for me when I need it. Unsure of the dosage, but must be standard as it's over the counter blister packs here in Canada. I started taking ONE - it didn't do a thing; in fact IT kept me UP - until someone told me to try HALF a pill. Bingo - works like a charm. Half a pill with warm milk and I'm out in 20 minutes. I hear that higher dosages are actually used to remedy jet lag, hence the lower dosage for sleep. I do feel a wee groggy in the AM but it certainly doesn't linger long. Far better than any other sleep aid I've tried.

lust said:

Aelis said:

Not at all.

Apart from benefiting from homeopathy in my childhood, I've spent a fair amount of my time thinking about the right approach to treating health issues (I happen to study pharmacy, so it made me think about and question many, many things) and I have come to a conclusion that the "scientific" approach where everything has to be measurable and sterile, is quite naive. Life is too complex for that. And the body can never be separated from the spirit. Therefore, homeopathy and similar methods are a much more natural choice because they try to consider the whole person, which is what the allopathic medicine doesn't do. It does, however, make you numb and anesthetised in a rather fast and effective way (which is sometimes necessary, sure), while the holistic approach (be it homeopathy or any concept that considers the whole person) is a bit more challenging as it just might (if the person working with you is the "right" one) deal with the cause of the issue. It requires the willingness to work on oneself. True healing is often not easy nor fast. Of course, there are many unqualified people messing with the vulnerable patients, and I do mind that.

However, if one wants to dismiss something just because they can't see it (extremely diluted solutions, for instance) they have the right to do so. I just wanted to share my point of view. I don't necessarily think homeopathy is always the only right way, I just firmly believe in holistic approach (and always prefer natural medicine over synthtetic).

[Edited 2/18/12 13:13pm]

I'm sorry but wether or not something works is absolutely a scientific question. Even if science can't explain the mechanism of why something works it can assertain wether it does or not. That part is easy. The fact is it has been proven that homeopathy is no more effective than placebo. So we have two issues. We have a remedy that has been proven to a) have no active ingredient (the dilution levels mean not even one molecule remains. b) in testing, it doesn't work. Anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. Sure, you were sick once. Took a homeopathic remedy and got better. So what? I was sick once. Didn't take any remedy and also got better.

The problem with science, any science (psychology included) is partial approach. That's why, in the long run, it doesn't give results.

In my case, there couldn't have been a placebo effect. But even if it is a placebo, it still means you didn't take an artificial substance (which is much healthier for the body), and got better <- which is the only thing that counts.

There are thousands of people who claim it worked for them. There are many who claim the opposite, too. It's all legitimate. I just won't automatically dismiss something because science doesn't approve it. In my opinion, it still might work, because it doesn't focus on the same things like the allopathic medicine and, therefore, maybe, can't be measured and observed in the same way. It's how I see it though. I don't want to change anybody's opinion or engage in endless debates, just wanted to contribute to the discussion.

[Edited 2/19/12 2:35am]

Aelis said:

damosuzuki said:

Not to derail this thread, but since someone proposed using a homeopathic remedy in this thread, I think a few facts about homeopathy should be presented, and I would encourage the OP to do some of her own investigation before spending a cent on any homeopathic product because you’ll likely be paying for nothing. In my opinion, it’s a pure sham treatment, and there’s no established medical literature that shows homeopathic treatments provide anything more than placebo benefit.

Homeopathy is based on two basic principles:

1) The law of similars: IE you treat a symptom with an ingredient that would tend to provoke that very symptom.

2) You don’t do that.

If that seems a little odd, even ridiculous, then welcome to the upside down, logically tortured world of homeopathy. In a homeopathic treatment, a sleeping aid might contain caffeine because homeopaths believe that a disorder can be treated by dosages of a substance that provoke those same symptoms. However, they also believe that the dosage has to be small – extremely small, and that’s where things leave the boundaries of reality and enter truly magical belief systems.

Homeopaths dilute (in water usually, though apparently they may use alcohol) their solutions repeatedly to the extent that there is generally no chance of any trace amount of the active ingredient left. The ‘Rescue Sleep’ product recommended in this thread apparently has a ‘5X’ dilution. I wasn’t able to find the concentration on the product's website, but I did find the dilution here: http://well.ca/products/b...13744.html. This means that the original substance has been diluted 1/10 * 1/10 * 1/10 * 1/10 * 1/10 times, and should be in the product at a concentration of 1 part in 100,000.

That’s not much – but it’s actually quite a bit in comparison to many homeopathic remedies, which often dilute their product to such an extent that there’s almost zero chance that there’s a trace molecule of the original solution left. For example:

[Edited 2/18/12 6:52am]

Not at all.

Apart from benefiting from homeopathy in my childhood, I've spent a fair amount of my time thinking about the right approach to treating health issues (I happen to study pharmacy, so it made me think about and question many, many things) and I have come to a conclusion that the "scientific" approach where everything has to be measurable and sterile, is quite naive. Life is too complex for that. And the body can never be separated from the spirit. Therefore, homeopathy and similar methods are a much more natural choice because they try to consider the whole person, which is what the allopathic medicine doesn't do. It does, however, make you numb and anesthetised in a rather fast and effective way (which is sometimes necessary, sure), while the holistic approach (be it homeopathy or any concept that considers the whole person) is a bit more challenging as it just might (if the person working with you is the "right" one) deal with the cause of the issue. It requires the willingness to work on oneself. True healing is often not easy nor fast. Of course, there are many unqualified people messing with the vulnerable patients, and I do mind that.

However, if one wants to dismiss something just because they can't see it (extremely diluted solutions, for instance) they have the right to do so. I just wanted to share my point of view. I don't necessarily think homeopathy is always the only right way, I just firmly believe in holistic approach (and always prefer natural medicine over synthtetic).

[Edited 2/18/12 13:13pm]

Lust has already said most of what I have to say in response to you, but I will add that I do agree that life is very complex. I can’t imagine that anyone would disagree with you on that. It can be very difficult to tell the difference between what is real and what is not real, and I think the best approach to determining what is true is to use the scientific process. To date homeopathy and the overwhelming majority of the CAM modalities have failed miserably at this – there has never been a demonstrable, repeated benefit shown in a clinical trial.

That leads me to the same question I posed to genesia: why support a product that has no plausible mechanism and has never been shown in clinical trials to provide any benefit? If you’re a pharmacist or studying pharmacy, I certainly hope when an ill person comes into your shop you’ll recommend a medication that has actually been clinically tested & established as having a positive medical effect rather than recommending something that contains no active ingredient and has no support in the medical literature.

I have no objection to a homeopathic or any other alternative approach being utilized if it can in fact be established that that method actually can be shown to have some degree of effectiveness. However, most of the advocates of homeopathic and other alternative approaches do not base their arguments on evidence (that’s always a scarce resource for them). Instead they argue their products/approaches are superior because they are natural or holistic – in other words, they’re basing their approach on ideology, not effectiveness, largely based on the naturalistic fallacy that if something is not tainted by technology or ‘western’ thought it’s inherently superior. I don’t think that’s in keeping with the best practices of the modern, scientific age.

[Edited 2/19/12 3:43am]

Aelis said:

The problem with science, any science (psychology included) is partial approach. That's why, in the long run, it doesn't give results.

That doesn’t even warrant a response really, but for the record: the array of treatments & technology available to us provide pretty good results. It goes without saying but I’ll say anyway that the modern scientific era has had many medical home runs to its name and in almost every area we’ve made substantial incremental improvements. I don’t think I need to substantiate that statement.

In my case, there couldn't have been a placebo effect. But even if it is a placebo, it still means you didn't take an artificial substance (which is much healthier for the body), and got better <- which is the only thing that counts.

If you are ill and need treatment, it’s certainly better for your body to take an ‘artificial substance’ that has a proven effect above placebo than to take a natural product that does nothing. It’s absurd to argue otherwise.

There are thousands of people who claim it worked for them. There are many who claim the opposite, too. It's all legitimate. I just won't automatically dismiss something because science doesn't approve it. In my opinion, it still might work, because it doesn't focus on the same things like the allopathic medicine and, therefore, maybe, can't be measured and observed in the same way. It's how I see it though. I don't want to change anybody's opinion or engage in endless debates, just wanted to contribute to the discussion.

[Edited 2/19/12 2:35am]

People who are not seriously ill but suffer from minor ailments usually do get better just through the reaction of their body’s immune system. It’s very easy for people to misinterpret an action like taking a vitamin or a homeopathic remedy as having a positive benefit when it simply happened to be something you did while you were naturally improving (see correlation does not equal causation fallacy).

The fact that many people claim it worked for them isn’t particularly compelling. Millions of people believe in TV psychics. A huge proportion of the US believes the planet is 6000 years old. The fact that a large number of people hold a belief is not a strong argument for that belief’s validity. It's often more of a testament to a lack of critical thinking if not flat out gullibility among the general population. You actually have to do the hard work, provide the evidence and establish the validity of the claims, and that is where homeopathy and other alternative modalities have failed. If they ever do reliably, repeatedly back up their claims, then I will support them, but until that day they belong in the same dumpster as other bogus beliefs like phrenology.

I believe that most peoples sleep problems relate back to stress (disclaimer - I'm no doctor ).

I make sure when I'm getting ready for bed that I disconnect myself mentally from any stresses that exist in my life. They can f*** right off when it's MY time to relax and sleep!

I realise that any worries I have can't be dealt with during the night when I'm in bed. I sweep that shit under the rug with authority, at least until the next day, when those things can be dealt with properly.

My bed is my sanctuary. No thoughts about stressful life things are allowed to gestate. I turn my phone onto silent. I don't answer any work messages/emails. I sometimes watch a favourtie comedy show to give me a laugh.

I hope all the people here having sleep difficulties find a way that works for you soon! Love & good luck.

I rarely had trouble falling asleep, but when I did, I would play my favorite golf course in my mind.

Each shot. Tee off on the first hole, watch the ball go and land in the fairway. Watch myself walk up to the ball and hit my approach shot. Watch it land on the green and roll toward the hole. Watch myself walk up to the green, read the putt and make it (or two-putt for par).

I usually never made it past the third hole before I was sound asleep.

So what I guess I'm saying is, watching golf is pretty boring.

XxAxX said:

To keep the racing thoughts away:

Write half an hour a day on fixed time about everything that bothers you. Do this daily for two weeks and after that, every other day. During that writing half hour you can ruminate and go over everything that has happened. However, outside that half hour, when thoughts come up, tell yourself you will write it down in the half hour. No need to elaborate or procrastinate over it.

Train sleep hygiene:

Implement a sleep ritual to train your body. E.g. Tidy up bedroom, clean yourself, meditate, sleep yoga and to bed.

If all else fails, read Dostojevskior Houellebecq.

Hope you'll feel happy again soon.

ambien .. or warm milk n melatonin. Or u kno .. hot passionate flippy flop

[Edited 2/19/12 14:07pm]

Thanks for all the advice, guys. I really appreciate it.

JustErin said:

Thanks for all the advice, guys. I really appreciate it.

We're boring Erin to sleep!

Have you already tried the hot milk with honey thing and all that?

[Edited 2/20/12 13:47pm]

Dave1992 said:

Have you already tried the hot milk with honey thing and all that?

Whenever I'm doing a play and my rehearsals run late, I stop at the Starbucks drive-thru on the way home, and get a steamed milk with nutmeg. Tryptophan galore. It's my first step toward la-la land.

Honestly, I haven't tried anything yet.

But I was away all weekend and up late anyway, so I'll try a few things tonight.

Got milk?

JustErin said:

Honestly, I haven't tried anything yet.

But I was away all weekend and up late anyway, so I'll try a few things tonight.

[img:$uid]http://www.jmu.edu/MadisonOnline/wm_library/18_clue.jpg[/img:$uid]

I'm telling you, your eyelids will feel like lead!

retina said:

JustErin said:

Honestly, I haven't tried anything yet.

But I was away all weekend and up late anyway, so I'll try a few things tonight.

[img:$uid]http://www.jmu.edu/MadisonOnline/wm_library/18_clue.jpg[/img:$uid]

I'm telling you, your eyelids will feel like lead!

It's putting me to sleep just LOOKING at the pic.

PurpleJedi said:

retina said:

[img:$uid]http://www.jmu.edu/MadisonOnline/wm_library/18_clue.jpg[/img:$uid]

I'm telling you, your eyelids will feel like lead!

It's putting me to sleep just LOOKING at the pic.

lol

It's fun though and exciting when you can crack the really difficult ones, but if it's late at night and you're tired there is no way you'll be able to stay awake for more than half an hour. Especially if you're making little or no progress.

When I'm having a restless night and can't sleep, I listen to music on my iPod (works for me)... also try :

'Kalms Herbal Natural Sleep Tablets'

JustErin said:

JustErin said:

Honestly, I haven't tried anything yet.

You started a thread about it! That is the first step, honey

a bout of insomnia can happen because of anxiety, stress, or depression. The thing to do is just try to do something fun if you can't sleep, don't let it add to your anxiety. Watch tv, watch something funny. Read magazines or a book. Talk to friends on the phone.

That's how I would deal.

Do you end up getting sleepy in the middle of the day?

Sudoku is great, do Logic Puzzles too. You can buy them or go online to play. Doing fun things can work, but they make me super hyper too that I can easily become manic, but then when it dies down, I'm sad again.

ufoclub said:

a bout of insomnia can happen because of anxiety, stress, or depression. The thing to do is just try to do something fun if you can't sleep, don't let it add to your anxiety. Watch tv, watch something funny. Read magazines or a book. Talk to friends on the phone.

That's how I would deal.

Do you end up getting sleepy in the middle of the day?

That's a good piece of advice. In my sleepless patch back then I was very sad too and probably even had depression, but what really helped me was actually staying up all night and enjoying the little things. Opening all windows at night, lying naked on the floor and listening to good music. I liked being alone and those positive feelings just overwhelmed me. I do think it helped me in the end