Shorty said:

dJJ said:

The only good reason to inhabit the same house with a partner is when you have children IMO.

I'm in my late thirties and I would love to have a family. However, I never met a man that I thought I would be able to raise children with and deal with all the challenges of daily life. I'm very happy as a nanny, because I do experience that family life a little bit, eventhough it's distant. Chances are that I'm not going to meet a man soon that I can have a family with.

When I'm beyond the age of reproduction, that struggle will be over for me. Then I can cry about it, however, also be happy that there will not be any pressure anymore to maintain a relationship with someone nor live together. Allthough I still hope I could have a family of my own, if that's not for me, I'll be happy with the good things that come with being single and no more need for a longterm relationship.

If you are certain you don't want any children, then you don't have to worry about anything. Just enjoy your life being alone.

I don't really see that as a good reason. In my experience....it's actually caused many conflicts.

sometimes I wonder if the ideal situation would be to have an agreement with a man about having a child or children together in seperate house holds from the get go. You want a child, he wants a child, draw up a contract that sets the stipulations and go from there.

ofcourse nothing is so simple but...it couldn't be any worse than the outcome of most traditional situations.

And where does the kid fit into that "business arrangement"?

Genesia said:

Shorty said:

I don't really see that as a good reason. In my experience....it's actually caused many conflicts.

sometimes I wonder if the ideal situation would be to have an agreement with a man about having a child or children together in seperate house holds from the get go. You want a child, he wants a child, draw up a contract that sets the stipulations and go from there.

ofcourse nothing is so simple but...it couldn't be any worse than the outcome of most traditional situations.

And where does the kid fit into that "business arrangement"?

it's in the stipulations. Who will get them when, how often, what's covered, who pays for what, what holidays, yada yada yada yaday. Basically..what it ends up being after a divorce...just prior.

Shorty said:

Genesia said:

And where does the kid fit into that "business arrangement"?

it's in the stipulations. Who will get them when, how often, what's covered, who pays for what, what holidays, yada yada yada yaday. Basically..what it ends up being after a divorce...just prior.

I'm sorry...but that sounds absolutely hellish for the child. That anyone would plan to do that is...well...

Genesia said:

Shorty said:

it's in the stipulations. Who will get them when, how often, what's covered, who pays for what, what holidays, yada yada yada yaday. Basically..what it ends up being after a divorce...just prior.

I'm sorry...but that sounds absolutely hellish for the child. That anyone would plan to do that is...well...

I'm not sure if it's hellish for the child. A lot of couples have children without thinking of the practical stuf. They have to fight about it when it appears and oftentimes are decepted by reality. No child gains anything from that.

When these practical issues have been discussed and agreed upon in advance, there is a lot of more time & space for love for the child and making sure that the child gets a loving, stimulating, safe and happy upbringing.

I have considered sharing parenthood with a gay couple.

dJJ said:

Genesia said:

I'm sorry...but that sounds absolutely hellish for the child. That anyone would plan to do that is...well...

I'm not sure if it's hellish for the child. A lot of couples have children without thinking of the practical stuf. They have to fight about it when it appears and oftentimes are decepted by reality. No child gains anything from that.

When these practical issues have been discussed and agreed upon in advance, there is a lot of more time & space for love for the child and making sure that the child gets a loving, stimulating, safe and happy upbringing.

I have considered sharing parenthood with a gay couple.

Oh, I see. The fact some children are raised in less than "ideal" conditions and turn out okay means we should go for a "whatever the market will bear" approach to childbearing and rearing?

I hope I'm not around to see the outcome of that approach.

Genesia said:

dJJ said:

I'm not sure if it's hellish for the child. A lot of couples have children without thinking of the practical stuf. They have to fight about it when it appears and oftentimes are decepted by reality. No child gains anything from that.

When these practical issues have been discussed and agreed upon in advance, there is a lot of more time & space for love for the child and making sure that the child gets a loving, stimulating, safe and happy upbringing.

I have considered sharing parenthood with a gay couple.

Oh, I see. The fact some children are raised in less than "ideal" conditions and turn out okay means we should go for a "whatever the market will bear" approach to childbearing and rearing?

I hope I'm not around to see the outcome of that approach.

It's opposite of "whatever the market will bear"

If I would have followed that principle, I would have had children with one of my ex-boyfriends by now. And I'm glad that I haven't.

I'm not negative about familieties that don't resemble the western christian ideals. In different cultures there are different views on childrearing. And I don't think that the traditional American way of two straight people and two children is the only good way to rear a child. I think there is enough proof that that 'ideal' situation doesn't apply to everybody and also in reality isn't ideal at all.

Genesia said:

Shorty said:

it's in the stipulations. Who will get them when, how often, what's covered, who pays for what, what holidays, yada yada yada yaday. Basically..what it ends up being after a divorce...just prior.

I'm sorry...but that sounds absolutely hellish for the child. That anyone would plan to do that is...well...

I don't think it sounds hellish at all. I think it's much better than living in a house with two parents that fight all the time. Nobody is saying the two parents have to live really far apart, hell they could live on the same street.

I think it sounds preferable in that sense that it's good for the children to be comfortable adapting quickly to different environments.

I actually do know a couple that are planning to do this. They are both high-powered journalists writing for The Guardian newspaper here in the UK. They live in the same area of London, started casually dating, she got pregnant but neither has any plans to move in with each other. That's just not how their relationship is. I don't see it having any negative impact on the child, they'll just grow up in different circumstances to most.

dJJ said:

Genesia said:

Oh, I see. The fact some children are raised in less than "ideal" conditions and turn out okay means we should go for a "whatever the market will bear" approach to childbearing and rearing?

I hope I'm not around to see the outcome of that approach.

It's opposite of "whatever the market will bear"

If I would have followed that principle, I would have had children with one of my ex-boyfriends by now. And I'm glad that I haven't.

I'm not negative about familieties that don't resemble the western christian ideals. In different cultures there are different views on childrearing. And I don't think that the traditional American way of two straight people and two children is the only good way to rear a child. I think there is enough proof that that 'ideal' situation doesn't apply to everybody and also in reality isn't ideal at all.

Hold on there.

I didn't say anything about "western christian ideals" or gay parenting. I replied specifically to the notion that people who never had any intention of forming a family would just have a baby by contract - and let the sociological chips fall where they may.

I don't know if it's good or bad, but I think it's sad.

imago said:

I absolutely LOATHE being told "I love you" if I've only known the person for a short time. And this goes along with exclusive dating, or strong commitments. I LOATHE it.

I mean, full body shivers. How the hell does someone who you've known a few weeks or months love you? In my case, I try to cough it up to language barriers, but no no no.

.... but I go through phases. I'll probably be married next year.

I love you.

RodeoSchro said:

I don't know if it's good or bad, but I think it's sad.

This.

RodeoSchro said:

I don't know if it's good or bad, but I think it's sad.

I agree.

It's the situation I'm in and I'm not the only one.

Genesia said:

dJJ said:

It's opposite of "whatever the market will bear"

If I would have followed that principle, I would have had children with one of my ex-boyfriends by now. And I'm glad that I haven't.

I'm not negative about familieties that don't resemble the western christian ideals. In different cultures there are different views on childrearing. And I don't think that the traditional American way of two straight people and two children is the only good way to rear a child. I think there is enough proof that that 'ideal' situation doesn't apply to everybody and also in reality isn't ideal at all.

Hold on there.

I didn't say anything about "western christian ideals" or gay parenting. I replied specifically to the notion that people who never had any intention of forming a family would just have a baby by contract - and let the sociological chips fall where they may.

true, true.

I mentioned it more as a generalisation. Times are changing as are social structures. So, I threw it in for the discussion sake.

Thanks to everyone for their comments so far, it's been really interesting to read everyone's outlook on this. I guess what makes it a bit strange for me is that sometimes I meet a guy who seems okay and I think, "Oh no, he seems too nice, what could be wrong?" Then I just automatically start thinking about if I fall in love with this guy and have kids, it will just end up in hell. Sorry but that's honestly how I think and it's not healthy to think that far ahead and expect the worst, but it's just my knee-jerk reaction. I just don't see it as anything but misery. It's like from the most literal DAY ONE of meeting a guy I'm already seeing a terrible ending, pretty sad huh?

SeventeenDayze said:

Thanks to everyone for their comments so far, it's been really interesting to read everyone's outlook on this. I guess what makes it a bit strange for me is that sometimes I meet a guy who seems okay and I think, "Oh no, he seems too nice, what could be wrong?" Then I just automatically start thinking about if I fall in love with this guy and have kids, it will just end up in hell. Sorry but that's honestly how I think and it's not healthy to think that far ahead and expect the worst, but it's just my knee-jerk reaction. I just don't see it as anything but misery. It's like from the most literal DAY ONE of meeting a guy I'm already seeing a terrible ending, pretty sad huh?

If u do ever find mr right and he turns out 2 b mr wrong...........Stay strong and never lose touch with ur friends.....Never become a doormat........Eye wish u only happiness...but in a world so cold...

davetherave6767 said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Thanks to everyone for their comments so far, it's been really interesting to read everyone's outlook on this. I guess what makes it a bit strange for me is that sometimes I meet a guy who seems okay and I think, "Oh no, he seems too nice, what could be wrong?" Then I just automatically start thinking about if I fall in love with this guy and have kids, it will just end up in hell. Sorry but that's honestly how I think and it's not healthy to think that far ahead and expect the worst, but it's just my knee-jerk reaction. I just don't see it as anything but misery. It's like from the most literal DAY ONE of meeting a guy I'm already seeing a terrible ending, pretty sad huh?

If u do ever find mr right and he turns out 2 b mr wrong...........Stay strong and never lose touch with ur friends.....Never become a doormat........Eye wish u only happiness...but in a world so cold...

hey Dave---yeah that's good advice because right now I'm dealing with my mother who is going through divorce number three and she basically is in touch with me depending on how her love life is going. Don't get me wrong, she is sometimes around to help and be supportive but I thankfully live about 1,000 miles away from home. She always put her love life ahead of her kids (my sister and me)...and now she wants to be all chummy because she's divorced now...really pisses me off. It's like I'm so disposable to her I dunno....she outta be like my dad, get divorced be bitter, never marry again and cut off all communication with the whole family for 15 years!

SeventeenDayze said:

davetherave6767 said:

If u do ever find mr right and he turns out 2 b mr wrong...........Stay strong and never lose touch with ur friends.....Never become a doormat........Eye wish u only happiness...but in a world so cold...

hey Dave---yeah that's good advice because right now I'm dealing with my mother who is going through divorce number three and she basically is in touch with me depending on how her love life is going. Don't get me wrong, she is sometimes around to help and be supportive but I thankfully live about 1,000 miles away from home. She always put her love life ahead of her kids (my sister and me)...and now she wants to be all chummy because she's divorced now...really pisses me off. It's like I'm so disposable to her I dunno....she outta be like my dad, get divorced be bitter, never marry again and cut off all communication with the whole family for 15 years!

Just take care of number 1......................................UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

SeventeenDayze said:

I'm a chick who I think really is scared to death of any type of long-term, committed relationship. Is that weird or is it just the way things are now in society? I just really can't see myself being with a guy for longer than maybe a few years....I've only had one relationship that was longer than a year...all the others were a few weeks or months. Is that weird?

I think being very cautious shows some intelligence. I am amazed at how many couples stay together and are basically estranged. To not be scared at all is to worry more about being alone and lonely than being with someone who just makes you look like your not alone but you're still lonely.

-

[Edited 10/2/11 9:29am]

Genesia said:

dJJ said:

It's opposite of "whatever the market will bear"

If I would have followed that principle, I would have had children with one of my ex-boyfriends by now. And I'm glad that I haven't.

I'm not negative about familieties that don't resemble the western christian ideals. In different cultures there are different views on childrearing. And I don't think that the traditional American way of two straight people and two children is the only good way to rear a child. I think there is enough proof that that 'ideal' situation doesn't apply to everybody and also in reality isn't ideal at all.

Hold on there.

I didn't say anything about "western christian ideals" or gay parenting. I replied specifically to the notion that people who never had any intention of forming a family would just have a baby by contract - and let the sociological chips fall where they may.

And this is the reason why I don't want to have a family or get married. I understand that traditional marriages are not for everyone and that at this time and age "blended" families are becoming the norm. But that is not for me. Ideally I would like to get married to a man who has never been married before or has any children. However, I understand how difficult this would be since I am in my mid thirties and a LOT of single men in their mid thirties have been married before or have children from previous relationships.

I know that when you love someone you have to accept them as they are, but I do not believe nor desire to be in a blended family. Just because statistically most second marriages/blended families are even less likely to stay together.

DysregulatedToxicity said:

Genesia said:

Hold on there.

I didn't say anything about "western christian ideals" or gay parenting. I replied specifically to the notion that people who never had any intention of forming a family would just have a baby by contract - and let the sociological chips fall where they may.

And this is the reason why I don't want to have a family or get married. I understand that traditional marriages are not for everyone and that at this time and age "blended" families are becoming the norm. But that is not for me. Ideally I would like to get married to a man who has never been married before or has any children. However, I understand how difficult this would be since I am in my mid thirties and a LOT of single men in their mid thirties have been married before or have children from previous relationships.

I know that when you love someone you have to accept them as they are, but I do not believe nor desire to be in a blended family. Just because statistically most second marriages/blended families are even less likely to stay together.

I reckon it's not for nearly EVERYONE

ZombieKitten said:

DysregulatedToxicity said:

And this is the reason why I don't want to have a family or get married. I understand that traditional marriages are not for everyone and that at this time and age "blended" families are becoming the norm. But that is not for me. Ideally I would like to get married to a man who has never been married before or has any children. However, I understand how difficult this would be since I am in my mid thirties and a LOT of single men in their mid thirties have been married before or have children from previous relationships.

I know that when you love someone you have to accept them as they are, but I do not believe nor desire to be in a blended family. Just because statistically most second marriages/blended families are even less likely to stay together.

I reckon it's not for nearly EVERYONE

I think you are right. I have my reservations about marriage to begin with. And I think I will never be a mother and I am okay with that. I dread starting a relationship and having the feeling that it will not last or that a total emotional investment is a waste of time and energy. I know you can't really develop a healthy and mature relationship without giving it your all; but I just can't. So it even makes more complicated when you bring in your "bagagge" from previous relationships. Wow! I need a drink.

DysregulatedToxicity said:

ZombieKitten said:

I reckon it's not for nearly EVERYONE

I think you are right. I have my reservations about marriage to begin with. And I think I will never be a mother and I am okay with that. I dread starting a relationship and having the feeling that it will not last or that a total emotional investment is a waste of time and energy. I know you can't really develop a healthy and mature relationship without giving it your all; but I just can't. So it even makes more complicated when you bring in your "bagagge" from previous relationships. Wow! I need a drink.

Once you get married and become a mother, it's too late when you realise in hindsight that's it's not for you

Don't develop an imaginary partner either, it kills!

alphastreet said:

Don't develop an imaginary partner either, it kills!

alphastreet said:

Don't develop an imaginary partner either, it kills!

What is wrong with imaginary partners? I like having one or maybe 2 . It sure beats getting off thinking about a real man that is not now or ever going to be in my life. When you have an imaginary partner you can just put together characteristics of different men that you like.

SeventeenDayze said:

davetherave6767 said:

If u do ever find mr right and he turns out 2 b mr wrong...........Stay strong and never lose touch with ur friends.....Never become a doormat........Eye wish u only happiness...but in a world so cold...

hey Dave---yeah that's good advice because right now I'm dealing with my mother who is going through divorce number three and she basically is in touch with me depending on how her love life is going. Don't get me wrong, she is sometimes around to help and be supportive but I thankfully live about 1,000 miles away from home. She always put her love life ahead of her kids (my sister and me)...and now she wants to be all chummy because she's divorced now...really pisses me off. It's like I'm so disposable to her I dunno....she outta be like my dad, get divorced be bitter, never marry again and cut off all communication with the whole family for 15 years!

Well, I also have been raised by a love addict mother, alcoholic stephdad and a not present dad. And yes, therefore I have been extremely critical of any man that I would consider to be the father of our children.

However, what I learned, is that I'm not my mother. Eventhough I got into the love addiction too, I've had the reverse reaction to men than her; I broke up with them, made sure they broke up with me and have been extremely aware of the way they would treat me and if they'r nice.

The last time I had my guards down, was when I ended up marrying someone. That was a bad decision, and I'm still paying for it. I have to go to court again, because he appealed the divorce verdict by the court.

So, I can only share with you my own experiences. And I have been very critical at the men I've been dating. And I think I have loved a few wholeheartedly, however, I also allways have kept my guard up. Not letting them get to know me really and truly.

And now I'm single with a wish for a family.

However, I'm not sure if that's a bad thing. I have friends with kids whom I spend a lot of time with and a nanny. So, I do have the joy of children and not have some of the heavy burdens that come with family life.

I guess, the women who did marry and have children are better at weighing if they made the right decision.

ZombieKitten said:

DysregulatedToxicity said:

I think you are right. I have my reservations about marriage to begin with. And I think I will never be a mother and I am okay with that. I dread starting a relationship and having the feeling that it will not last or that a total emotional investment is a waste of time and energy. I know you can't really develop a healthy and mature relationship without giving it your all; but I just can't. So it even makes more complicated when you bring in your "bagagge" from previous relationships. Wow! I need a drink.

Once you get married and become a mother, it's too late when you realise in hindsight that's it's not for you

The same goes for nearing 40 and not having a family. It might be to late to give birth to a child and having to deal with never going to have a family of your own.

DysregulatedToxicity said:

Genesia said:

Hold on there.

I didn't say anything about "western christian ideals" or gay parenting. I replied specifically to the notion that people who never had any intention of forming a family would just have a baby by contract - and let the sociological chips fall where they may.

And this is the reason why I don't want to have a family or get married. I understand that traditional marriages are not for everyone and that at this time and age "blended" families are becoming the norm. But that is not for me. Ideally I would like to get married to a man who has never been married before or has any children. However, I understand how difficult this would be since I am in my mid thirties and a LOT of single men in their mid thirties have been married before or have children from previous relationships.

I know that when you love someone you have to accept them as they are, but I do not believe nor desire to be in a blended family. Just because statistically most second marriages/blended families are even less likely to stay together.

Agreed about the single men who are in their mid-30s, it seems like (no offense here but) a lot of guys past a certain age who are single and without kids, well there's a reason for it. I really don't understand in today's world with such a large pool of single, eligible women how a guy could possibly complain about not being able to find any that are "wife material". I met a guy the other day who is about to turn 36 and he's very handsome and seemed polite but I thought to myself, how in the world has he not been taken by now?

I also don't want a guy who has kids or has been married before because it's just not a good fit with my personality either.

SeventeenDayze said:

DysregulatedToxicity said:

And this is the reason why I don't want to have a family or get married. I understand that traditional marriages are not for everyone and that at this time and age "blended" families are becoming the norm. But that is not for me. Ideally I would like to get married to a man who has never been married before or has any children. However, I understand how difficult this would be since I am in my mid thirties and a LOT of single men in their mid thirties have been married before or have children from previous relationships.

I know that when you love someone you have to accept them as they are, but I do not believe nor desire to be in a blended family. Just because statistically most second marriages/blended families are even less likely to stay together.

Agreed about the single men who are in their mid-30s, it seems like (no offense here but) a lot of guys past a certain age who are single and without kids, well there's a reason for it. I really don't understand in today's world with such a large pool of single, eligible women how a guy could possibly complain about not being able to find any that are "wife material". I met a guy the other day who is about to turn 36 and he's very handsome and seemed polite but I thought to myself, how in the world has he not been taken by now?

I also don't want a guy who has kids or has been married before because it's just not a good fit with my personality either.

Isn't that the same way for women?