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Thread started 04/16/11 12:30pm

SUPRMAN

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The evolution of language

Babel or babble?

Languages all have their roots in the same part of the world. But they are not as similar to each other as was once thought

WHERE do languages come from? That is a question as old as human beings’ ability to pose it. But it has two sorts of answer. The first is evolutionary: when and where human banter was first heard. The second is ontological: how an individual human acquires the power of speech and understanding. This week, by a neat coincidence, has seen the publication of papers addressing both of these conundrums.

Quentin Atkinson, of the University of Auckland, in New Zealand, has been looking at the evolutionary issue, trying to locate the birthplace of the first language. Michael Dunn, of the Max Planck Institute for Psycholinguistics in the Netherlands, has been examining ontology. Fittingly, they have published their results in the two greatest rivals of scientific journalism. Dr Atkinson’s paper appears in Science, Dr Dunn’s in Nature.

The obvious place to look for the evolutionary origin of language is the cradle of humanity, Africa. And, to cut a long story short, it is to Africa that Dr Atkinson does trace things. In doing so, he knocks on the head any lingering suggestion that language originated more than once.

One of the lines of evidence which show humanity’s African origins is that the farther you get from that continent, the less diverse, genetically speaking, people are. Being descended from small groups of relatively recent migrants, they are more inbred than their African forebears.

Dr Atkinson wondered whether the same might be true of languages. To find out, he looked not at genes but at phonemes. These are the smallest sounds which differentiate meaning (like the “th” in thin; replace it with “f” or “s” and the result is a different word). It has been known for a while that the less widely spoken a language is, the fewer the phonemes it has. So, as groups of people ventured ever farther from their African homeland, their phonemic repertoires should have dwindled, just as their genetic ones did.


To check whether this is the case, Dr Atkinson took 504 languages and plotted the number of phonemes in each (corrected for recent population growth, when significant) against the distance between the place where the language is spoken and 2,500 putative points of origin, scattered across the world. The relationship that emerges suggests the actual point of origin is in central or southern Africa (see chart), and that all modern languages do, indeed, have a common root.

That fits nicely with the idea that being able to speak and be spoken to is a specific adaptation—a virtual organ, if you like—that is humanity’s killer app in the struggle for biological dominance. Once it arose, Homo sapiens really could go forth and multiply and fill the Earth.

The details of this virtual organ are the subject of Dr Dunn’s paper. Confusingly, though, for this neat story of human imperialism, his result challenges the leading hypothesis about the nature of the language organ itself.

Grammar or just rhetoric?

The originator of that hypothesis is Noam Chomsky, a linguist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Dr Chomsky argues that the human brain comes equipped with a hard-wired universal grammar—a language instinct, in the elegant phrase of his one-time colleague Steven Pinker. This would explain why children learn to speak almost effortlessly.

The problem with the idea of a language instinct is that languages differ not just in their vocabularies, which are learned, but in their grammatical rules, which are the sort of thing that might be expected to be instinctive. Dr Chomsky’s response is that this diversity, like the diversity of vocabulary, is superficial. In his opinion grammar is a collection of modules, each containing assorted features. Switching on a module activates all these features at a stroke. You cannot pick and choose within a module.

For instance, languages in which verbs precede objects will always have relative clauses after nouns; a language cannot have one but not the other. A lot of similar examples were collected by Joseph Greenberg, a linguist based at Stanford, who died in 2001. And, though Greenberg himself attributed his findings to general constraints on human thought rather than to language-specific switches in the brain, his findings also agree with the Chomskyan view of the world. Truly testing that view, though, is hard. The human brain cannot easily handle the connections that need to be made to do so. Dr Dunn therefore offered the task to a computer. And what he found surprised him.

Place your bets

To find out which linguistic features travel together, and might thus be parts of Chomskyan modules, means drawing up a reliable linguistic family tree. That is tricky. Unlike biologists, linguists do not have fossils to guide them through the past (apart from a few thousand years of records from the few tongues spoken by literate societies). Also, languages can crossbreed in a way that species do not. English, for example, is famously a muddle of German, Norse and medieval French. As a result, linguists often disagree about which tongues belong to a particular family.

To leap this hurdle, Dr Dunn began by collecting basic vocabulary terms—words for body parts, kinship, simple verbs and the like—for four large language families that all linguists agree are real. These are Indo-European, Bantu, Austronesian (from South-East Asia and the Pacific) and Uto-Aztecan (the native vernaculars of the Americas). These four groups account for more than a third of the 7,000 or so tongues spoken around the world today.

For each family, Dr Dunn and his team identified sets of cognates. These are etymologically related words that pop up in different languages. One set, for example, contains words like “night”, “Nacht” and “nuit”. Another includes “milk” and “Milch”, but not “lait”. The result is a multidimensional Venn diagram that records the overlaps between languages.

Which is fine for the present, but not much use for the past. To substitute for fossils, and thus reconstruct the ancient branches of the tree as well as the modern-day leaves, Dr Dunn used mathematically informed guesswork. The maths in question is called the Markov chain Monte Carlo (MCMC) method. As its name suggests, this spins the software equivalent of a roulette wheel to generate a random tree, then examines how snugly the branches of that tree fit the modern foliage. It then spins the wheel again, to tweak the first tree ever so slightly, at random. If the new tree is a better fit for the leaves, it is taken as the starting point for the next spin. If not, the process takes a step back to the previous best fit. The wheel whirrs millions of times until such random tweaking has no discernible effect on the outcome.

When Dr Dunn fed the languages he had chosen into the MCMC casino, the result was several hundred equally probable family trees. Next, he threw eight grammatical features, all related to word order, into the mix, and ran the game again.

The results were unexpected. Not one correlation persisted across all language families, and only two were found in more than one family. It looks, then, as if the correlations between grammatical features noticed by previous researchers are actually fossilised coincidences passed down the generations as part of linguistic culture. Nurture, in other words, rather than nature. If Dr Dunn is correct, that leaves Dr Chomsky’s ideas in tatters, and raises questions about the very existence of a language organ. You may be sure, though, that the Chomskyan heavy artillery will be making its first ranging shots in reply, even as you read this article. Watch this space for further developments.

http://www.economist.com/node/18557572

This is the type of stuff that fascinates me. Our lack of understanding about something so basic as language.

If language is nurture, not nature, why do children learn language(s) so easy?

And how does a child recognize multiple languages? (They should all be just words or sounds.)

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #1 posted 04/16/11 12:55pm

SagsWay2low

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I've always been curious about the Thai language.

I'm currently learning it, and it is.....very different.

Firstly, what is a verb in Thai? What is an object?

Up until recently Thais didn't even make distinctions between these words in a sentence.

A verb in Thai is the same as an ajective and vice versa.

In English we say "He is sick", or we can say "The sick man"... In Thai both would be "He sick" (Mai Sabai) . In other words he's not a sick man.. He's a man being sick. An adjective has a verb sense to it.

The language completely lacks inference as well.

And to top it off, it's fucking tonal. lol

So the word for far is "Glai" and the word for near is "Glai"... Same damned word to us. But there's a difference in the tone that each uses, thus making it a completely different word.

It's similar to our refuse (to say no) and refuse (trash or rubbish)...both are pronounced slightly differently, but are completely different words---the entire Thai language is like this.

But it's so pronounced to their hearing that they have a VERY difficult time understanding you at all when you hit the wrong tones.

It would be like saying "Boat" but pronouncing it "boot"...it would be very hard to figure out what you're saying and they'd have to figure it out from context.... like, "I'm going sailing on my boot".

lawd, and don't get me started with the fact that "Sai Nom" either means "with milk" or "shake your boobs" depending on how you hit the tones on that. lol

I love language. lol



You're a real fucker. You act like you own this place--ParanoidAndroid <-- about as witty as this princess gets! lol
I hope everyone pays more attention to Sags posts--sweething mushy

Jesus weeps disbelief
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Reply #2 posted 04/16/11 7:54pm

dJJ

SUPRMAN said:

Babel or babble?

Languages Humans all have their roots in the same part of the world. But they have not evolved are not as similar to each other as was once thought.

WHERE do languages come from?

This week, by a neat coincidence, has seen the publication of papers addressing both of these conundrums.

Quentin Atkinson, trying to locate the birthplace of the first language.

And, to cut a long story short, it is to Africa that Dr Atkinson does trace things.

One of the lines of evidence which show humanity’s African origins is that the farther you get from that continent, the less diverse, genetically speaking, people are. Being descended from small groups of relatively recent migrants, they are more inbred than their African forebears.

Dr Atkinson wondered whether the same might be true of languages. To find out, he looked not at genes but at phonemes. These are the smallest sounds which differentiate meaning (like the “th” in thin; replace it with “f” or “s” and the result is a different word). It has been known for a while that the less widely spoken a language is, the fewer the phonemes it has. So, as groups of people ventured ever farther from their African homeland, their phonemic repertoires should have dwindled, just as their genetic ones did.


To check whether this is the case, Dr Atkinson took 504 languages and plotted the number of phonemes in each (corrected for recent population growth, when significant) against the distance between the place where the language is spoken and 2,500 putative points of origin, scattered across the world.

The relationship that emerges suggests the actual point of origin is in central or southern Africa (see chart), and that all modern languages do, indeed, have a common root. stfu

That fits nicely with the idea that being able to speak and be spoken to is a specific adaptation—a virtual organ, if you like—that is humanity’s killer app in the struggle for biological dominance. Once it arose, Homo sapiens really could go forth and multiply and fill the Earth.

The details of this virtual organ are the subject of Dr Dunn’s paper. Confusingly, though, for this neat story of human imperialism, his result challenges the leading hypothesis about the nature of the language organ itself.

Grammar or just rhetoric?

The originator of that hypothesis is Noam Chomsky, a linguist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Dr Chomsky argues that the human brain comes equipped with a hard-wired universal grammar—a language instinct, in the elegant phrase of his one-time colleague Steven Pinker. This would explain why children learn to speak almost effortlessly.

The problem with the idea of a language instinct is that languages differ not just in their vocabularies, which are learned, but in their grammatical rules, which are the sort of thing that might be expected to be instinctive. Dr Chomsky’s response is that this diversity, like the diversity of vocabulary, is superficial. In his opinion grammar is a collection of modules, each containing assorted features. Switching on a module activates all these features at a stroke. You cannot pick and choose within a module.

For instance, languages in which verbs precede objects will always have relative clauses after nouns; a language cannot have one but not the other. A lot of similar examples were collected by Joseph Greenberg, a linguist based at Stanford, who died in 2001. And, though Greenberg himself attributed his findings to general constraints on human thought rather than to language-specific switches in the brain, his findings also agree with the Chomskyan view of the world. Truly testing that view, though, is hard. The human brain cannot easily handle the connections that need to be made to do so. Dr Dunn therefore offered the task to a computer. And what he found surprised him.

Place your bets

To find out which linguistic features travel together, and might thus be parts of Chomskyan modules, means drawing up a reliable linguistic family tree. That is tricky. Unlike biologists, linguists do not have fossils to guide them through the past (apart from a few thousand years of records from the few tongues spoken by literate societies). Also, languages can crossbreed in a way that species do not. English, for example, is famously a muddle of German, Norse and medieval French. As a result, linguists often disagree about which tongues belong to a particular family.

To leap this hurdle, Dr Dunn began by collecting basic vocabulary terms—words for body parts, kinship, simple verbs and the like—for four large language families that all linguists agree are real. These are Indo-European, Bantu, Austronesian (from South-East Asia and the Pacific) and Uto-Aztecan (the native vernaculars of the Americas). These four groups account for more than a third of the 7,000 or so tongues spoken around the world today.

For each family, Dr Dunn and his team identified sets of cognates. These are etymologically related words that pop up in different languages. One set, for example, contains words like “night”, “Nacht” and “nuit”. Another includes “milk” and “Milch”, but not “lait”. The result is a multidimensional Venn diagram that records the overlaps between languages.

Which is fine for the present, but not much use for the past. To substitute for fossils, and thus reconstruct the ancient branches of the tree as well as the modern-day leaves, Dr Dunn used mathematically informed guesswork. The maths in question is called the Markov chain Monte Carlo (MCMC) method. As its name suggests, this spins the software equivalent of a roulette wheel to generate a random tree, then examines how snugly the branches of that tree fit the modern foliage. It then spins the wheel again, to tweak the first tree ever so slightly, at random. If the new tree is a better fit for the leaves, it is taken as the starting point for the next spin. If not, the process takes a step back to the previous best fit. The wheel whirrs millions of times until such random tweaking has no discernible effect on the outcome.

When Dr Dunn fed the languages he had chosen into the MCMC casino, the result was several hundred equally probable family trees. Next, he threw eight grammatical features, all related to word order, into the mix, and ran the game again.

The results were unexpected. Not one correlation persisted across all language families, and only two were found in more than one family. It looks, then, as if the correlations between grammatical features noticed by previous researchers are actually fossilised coincidences passed down the generations as part of linguistic culture. Nurture, in other words, rather than nature. If Dr Dunn is correct, that leaves Dr Chomsky’s ideas in tatters, and raises questions about the very existence of a language organ. You may be sure, though, that the Chomskyan heavy artillery will be making its first ranging shots in reply, even as you read this article. Watch this space for further developments.

http://www.economist.com/node/18557572

This is the type of stuff that fascinates me. Our lack of understanding about something so basic as language.

If language is nurture, not nature, why do children learn language(s) so easy?

And how does a child recognize multiple languages? (They should all be just words or sounds.)

This journalist is not very good at writing complex matters in clear and understandable article. I doubt if he himself truly understands the issue.

Here is what I constructed out of the article (combined with some decade old knowledge of textbooks). And please do correct me if I'm wrong on the headlines.

Why humans currently are the dominant species on earth have inspired many people to encompass beautiful theories.

A common assumption is that

humans adapted more efficient to their environment

compared to any other species

due to human's ability of communicating by language.

It is reasoned that animals learn by trial and error,

whilst humans can deduct complex conditions for the use of tools, in order to enhance survival.

Abstract reasoning can be communicated by language.

Because humans can challenge and fine tune eachothers conclusions,

the human species have extended their use of tools,

elevating their survival changes.

Therefore language has been attributed to humans as a distinct capacity, that other species lack.

Human brains must be extremely special.

Dr Chomsky argues that the human brain comes equipped with a hard-wired universal grammar—a language instinct *

Human brains evolved out of Lucy from Africa and spread around the earth. (long story short lol)

Atkinson reasons that language is a byproduct of cerebral evolution of the first human species.

he (Atkinson) challenges the hypothesis that language originated more than once.

Because language stems from the 'first' human beings,

so it has the same universal structure as other human constructs like noses and eyes have.

His material of proof stems from equalizing the path of genes with grammar structure.

Noses and eyes originate from Lucy, however looks vary due to genetic diversity since traveling abroad from (South) Africa.

Grammar structure originates from one language construction, and any diversity is only superficial.

According to Atkinson his premisses

language constructs must have traveled the same paths as dna constructs have.

The closer to the origin of the language (Lucy), the more compact the language.

The more geographical spread from origin of that first language, the more diversity in a language.

Atkinson (well, probably his students and underpaid assistants did the dirty work)

did some hocuspocus with language and statistics and came up with the abovepublished chart.

From the statistics that form the chart he concludes:

The relationship that emerges suggests the actual point of origin is in central or southern Africa (see chart), and that all modern languages do, indeed, have a common root.

--I'm not a linguist specialist. Neither a genius in math. However, just one look at the chart and a fairly basic level of statistical knowledge makes me doubt his inferences heavily.

You can fit a regression analyses on any data set and statistical software programs will come up with a fit. No worries about that. However, allways be very suspicious about that fit.

This chart is no exception. It's just another dumb ass making himself look smart with juggling statistics he doesn't understand and forgot to THINK about the subject he researches.

His data fitted into three mathematical relatives would support the opposite conclusion. There are three distinct language families. Each family developed independently of eachother. There is no universal language grammar construct.

I guess, that if I would leave out the most contaminated languages French and English (due to colonies those languages don't represent similar development of language as the others do)

and fit three distinct regression lines on that data set, I would find a

1. A line with a very high rc (estimate above .85) and a constant that reveals traveling within 5 '000 km from Central Africa, encompassing the data of

Ewondo, Bobo Fing, Kurdish, Russian, Basque, Greek, Zulu, Hebrew and Arabic.

.

2. high rc (above .87) and a constance expressing 10 to 15 '000 km from Central Africa, suscribing data of Burmese, Cantonese, Bengali, Korean and Japanese.

2. a half parabola for Maori, Hawain and Awa Pit.

My interpretations of Atkinsons data actually concords with the statistical roulette of Dr. Dunn.

He found that not one correlation persisted across all language families, and only two were found in more than one family.

So, different language families are not variations from one original language.

Distinct languages as means of communication have been evolved at distinct times by distinct human colonies.

However, due to the general form, structure and material of human throats, mouth, tongue, broca's and wernicke's area, etcetera the mode of communication for humans is language. In the form as we know it. Words, pitch and ordering.

So, my interpretation of Atkinsons and Dunns statistical jiggling is that

there have been three or four distinct colonies of humans that started talking and developing a commonly understood language within the colony.

One colony didn't feel like traveling a lot, and settled down at 5 000 km distance from where they started.

Another colony was convinced that going to the left was faster, and they ended up traveling longer. Between 10 to 15 000 km from starting point.

One very stubborn and headstrong colony went to the other side and kept on traveling, until they couldn't travel further; between 20 and 25 000 km.

In order to be able to complain within the three different colonies about the stupidity of the other colonies, a commonly understood language evolved. Probably some character was mimicing a character of another colony to make his fellows laugh. They all agreed and the agreeing and supportive noises turned into words. lol

Best is to not trust peerreview and distrust the publication selection in scientific magazines. Just prey that most scientist spontaneously change careers and pave the way for smart and genuine individuals.

*When Chomsky constructed his theory technological devices were not as developed as today. His theory has te be valued in the light of his time.

He infered from indirect observations that there had to be a designated area in human brains for language. Observations included patients variety of speach loss after brain injury. Some books hold a great collection of stories about patients with these symptoms.

Nowadays technical innovations has accelarated brain research. E.g. identifying the blood flow (activity) in the specific language processing and producing area (Broca's area and Wernicke's area) whils performing designated task. Acquiring language can be researched at a more refined level nowadays.

99% of my posts are ironic. Maybe this post sides with the other 1%.
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Reply #3 posted 04/17/11 1:12pm

Shyra

SagsWay2low said:

I've always been curious about the Thai language.

I'm currently learning it, and it is.....very different.

Firstly, what is a verb in Thai? What is an object?

Up until recently Thais didn't even make distinctions between these words in a sentence.

A verb in Thai is the same as an ajective and vice versa.

In English we say "He is sick", or we can say "The sick man"... In Thai both would be "He sick" (Mai Sabai) . In other words he's not a sick man.. He's a man being sick. An adjective has a verb sense to it.

The language completely lacks inference as well.

And to top it off, it's fucking tonal. lol

So the word for far is "Glai" and the word for near is "Glai"... Same damned word to us. But there's a difference in the tone that each uses, thus making it a completely different word.

It's similar to our refuse (to say no) and refuse (trash or rubbish)...both are pronounced slightly differently, but are completely different words---the entire Thai language is like this.

But it's so pronounced to their hearing that they have a VERY difficult time understanding you at all when you hit the wrong tones.

It would be like saying "Boat" but pronouncing it "boot"...it would be very hard to figure out what you're saying and they'd have to figure it out from context.... like, "I'm going sailing on my boot".

lawd, and don't get me started with the fact that "Sai Nom" either means "with milk" or "shake your boobs" depending on how you hit the tones on that. lol

I love language. lol

Oh, homonyms. I'd suck at learning that language. Is is as difficult or more so than Chinese? I heard/read that Chinese is the most difficult language for an English speaking person to learn.

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Reply #4 posted 04/17/11 1:14pm

Mach

Interesting read SUPERMAN ~ TY for sharing

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Reply #5 posted 04/20/11 3:49am

wildgoldenhone
y

cool cool cool Thanks! biggrin

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Reply #6 posted 04/20/11 5:14am

Fauxie

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SagsWay2low said:

I've always been curious about the Thai language.

I'm currently learning it, and it is.....very different.

Firstly, what is a verb in Thai? What is an object?

Up until recently Thais didn't even make distinctions between these words in a sentence.

A verb in Thai is the same as an ajective and vice versa.

In English we say "He is sick", or we can say "The sick man"... In Thai both would be "He sick" (Mai Sabai) . In other words he's not a sick man.. He's a man being sick. An adjective has a verb sense to it.

Plus 'mai sabai' is literally 'not comfortable'. To say 'he is sick' you'd be saying 'khao mai sabai', but then 'khao' for he/she doesn't give you the gender, and it's also way too close for our untrained ears to words like 'enter' and 'rice' lol

'The sick man' would be 'khon mai sabai' (person not comfortable) or 'phuu chai mai sabai' (man not comfortable), but that sounds a bit clunky. I guess you'd say 'buay' for sick in that case though, as in a properly sick person rather than just temporarily feeling unwell.

I love Thai. lol Especially informal day to day lazy conversational Thai...

Q. What are you doing? A. Kin khao (eat rice)

Q. What did you do? A. Kin khao (eat rice)

Q. You're late! What took you so long?? A. Kin khao yuu! (stay eat rice!)

Q. So what's the plan for tonight? A. Kin lao! drink party ('eat' lol alcohol)

Q. What's up with her? (pointing at girl throwing up, addressing a third person) A. Kin lao rolleyes wink ('eat alcohol')

Q. Where are you going? A. Pai wat (go temple)

Q. Where will you go? A. Pai wat (go temple)

Q. You drink too much. You know you really drink too much. I mean, far be it for me to say. It's your body, but still, you drink too much and you go out partying all the time. It's not good for you. It makes our mother worry a lot too. What are you going to do to make it right? A. Pai wat (go temple) redface

falloff

Klai and Klai lol mad Darn tones!

Not as bad as 'mai mai mai mai mai?' (new wood doesn't burn, does it?) lol confuse

MY COUSIN WORKS IN A PHARMACY AND SHE SAID THEY ENEMA'D PRANCE INTO OBLIVION WITH FENTONILS!!
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Reply #7 posted 04/20/11 5:21am

Fauxie

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SagsWay2low said:

lawd, and don't get me started with the fact that "Sai Nom" either means "with milk" or "shake your boobs" depending on how you hit the tones on that. lol

Oh, and this falloff

Sags, you have 'big milk' batting eyes

Shit, how about 'nom hok'? Like spilt milk or like a wardrobe malfunction. Bit different to 'sai nom' though because it's different meanings for the exact same phrase in this case. Same as how my in-laws get a giggle out of me saying I love to eat oysters. redface

MY COUSIN WORKS IN A PHARMACY AND SHE SAID THEY ENEMA'D PRANCE INTO OBLIVION WITH FENTONILS!!
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