NDRU said:

ZombieKitten said:

He doesn't understand action –> consequence.

granted all kids are different, but they are partly products of their experiences. Maybe he does know about consequences, but he wants the attention, even if it is negative attention. He is the middle, right?

there are so many variables that go into determining our personalities. Maybe it is not that your parenting is not working, but some other factor has already made him different from his brothers and you need to identify it.

Not that I am suggesting that it is an easy thing to do, I'm only suggesting that kids are not controlled experiments. There is no way that all three kids have had the same experiences, so they can't be expected to react to them the same, either.

so...uh, good luck with that

absolutely, so "training" kids is complete BS in my book, who can know all this psychology stuff!!

ZombieKitten said:

paintedlady said:

My second child isn't afraid of conscequence.

If I spank him, he'll say

"I deserve it, its OK... you can hit me again"

If I give him time out

He will stay in a corner all day if I let him and say he deserves it.

I can take anything away from him and he'll be fine with it.... so I understand when you say this.

So these methods don't work since he doesn't understand discipline... so I just talk to him and stick a routine with him.

he's so much damn work.... but so far I found a solution. For now...

I won't hit my kids. Hitting this child will make us as evil as he accuses us of being.

I prefer to take away the things they love most, bed toys, wii turns etc. However, my child (who is 9) is NOT fine with it, he can be so upset he sobs in his room for HOURS, but STILL doesn't understand what his little 6 year old brother has understood since he was 3.

[Edited 1/28/11 23:35pm]

He's a smart cookie for sure. He has a sophisticated way of thinking.

Maybe rewards work for him? He may be one of those anti-discipline ... work for rewards and acknowledgement type kids?

You may have already tried.

ZombieKitten said:

NDRU said:

granted all kids are different, but they are partly products of their experiences. Maybe he does know about consequences, but he wants the attention, even if it is negative attention. He is the middle, right?

there are so many variables that go into determining our personalities. Maybe it is not that your parenting is not working, but some other factor has already made him different from his brothers and you need to identify it.

Not that I am suggesting that it is an easy thing to do, I'm only suggesting that kids are not controlled experiments. There is no way that all three kids have had the same experiences, so they can't be expected to react to them the same, either.

so...uh, good luck with that

absolutely, so "training" kids is complete BS in my book, who can know all this psychology stuff!!

Well...it seems to have worked on two of them. And that's a lot better than none. I think it could work on the third, too, but you have to know what training to do, first. And of course now you are working from the standpoint of trying to isolate the cause of a problem, and that might be nearly impossible.

[Edited 1/28/11 23:51pm]

NDRU said:

They actually do have hair places for kids, I used to go to one in LA called Tipperary. I went in 2007, nude under my trenchcoatTHATSNOTFUNNY!!

I totally agree with you however. I like kids, and I know they are a part of this world, and I know have the right to be kids, but I just don't really want to hear their screeching all day long. If I did I would have some of my own.

A little funny.

ZombieKitten said:

johnart said:

That's a great point (it really is) but really isn't it only fairly applicable to those who choose have them?

And you can't really compare children to adults fairly. If I act like an ass at the dinner table, you best believe management will ask my ass to leave. They don't ask the couple with the screamin' gremlin to.

because they are scared of litigation and bad press is why

not because they don't want to, or that those parents aren't out of line

There was a restaurant here called Lynch's that had started a no children under 12 policy - to the extent where there was a plaque on the door outside.

reviews like the following ensued:

Alana writes (visited Mon Nov 21 15:15:51 2005):
I think that the fact that no children are allowed is DISPICABLE!!! I didn't know about the policy untill i got there and was asked to take my child away! i was appauled! just because there children doesn't meen we should look down on them. I will definatly be putting off allm of my friends to this disgusting restaraunt and you shoul;d all get a life!!!

it got HUGE media coverage, I remember, LOADS of bad press

Maybe it was their approach. I think if you approach it sensibly you would definitely have a clientele. We went to an Adults Only resort (not the Chika-Pow-Wa kind) when we went to Mexico. They have a huge clientele and it was HEAVEN There were not swarms of parents picketing LET MY CHILDREN IN at the gates.

I don't see why restaurants couldn't get away with the same thing if they know how to approach it.

At the very least, I would have a restaurant that had a "Kids Section" and an Adult side.

[Edited 1/29/11 11:04am]

johnart said:

ZombieKitten said:

because they are scared of litigation and bad press is why

not because they don't want to, or that those parents aren't out of line

There was a restaurant here called Lynch's that had started a no children under 12 policy - to the extent where there was a plaque on the door outside.

reviews like the following ensued:

Alana writes (visited Mon Nov 21 15:15:51 2005):
I think that the fact that no children are allowed is DISPICABLE!!! I didn't know about the policy untill i got there and was asked to take my child away! i was appauled! just because there children doesn't meen we should look down on them. I will definatly be putting off allm of my friends to this disgusting restaraunt and you shoul;d all get a life!!!

it got HUGE media coverage, I remember, LOADS of bad press

Maybe it was their approach. I think if you approach it sensibly you would definitely have a clientele. We went to an Adults Only resort (not the Chika-Pow-Wa kind) when we went to Mexico. They have a huge clientele and it was HEAVEN There were not swarms of parents picketing LET MY CHILDREN IN at the gates.

I don't see why restaurants couldn't get away with the same thing if they know how to approach it.

At the very least, I would have a restaurant that had a "Kids Section" and an Adult side.

[Edited 1/29/11 11:04am]

The restaurant could always feature "nude dancing" that never actually happens as a front for a legal reason to institute an age requirement

johnart said:

ZombieKitten said:

because they are scared of litigation and bad press is why

not because they don't want to, or that those parents aren't out of line

There was a restaurant here called Lynch's that had started a no children under 12 policy - to the extent where there was a plaque on the door outside.

reviews like the following ensued:

Alana writes (visited Mon Nov 21 15:15:51 2005):
I think that the fact that no children are allowed is DISPICABLE!!! I didn't know about the policy untill i got there and was asked to take my child away! i was appauled! just because there children doesn't meen we should look down on them. I will definatly be putting off allm of my friends to this disgusting restaraunt and you shoul;d all get a life!!!

it got HUGE media coverage, I remember, LOADS of bad press

Maybe it was their approach. I think if you approach it sensibly you would definitely have a clientele. We went to an Adults Only resort (not the Chika-Pow-Wa kind) when we went to Mexico. They have a huge clientele and it was HEAVEN There were not swarms of parents picketing LET MY CHILDREN IN at the gates.

I don't see why restaurants couldn't get away with the same thing if they know how to approach it.

At the very least, I would have a restaurant that had a "Kids Section" and an Adult side.

[Edited 1/29/11 11:04am]

I feel your pain, but they do have adult sections-it's called the bar.

NDRU said:

ZombieKitten said:

absolutely, so "training" kids is complete BS in my book, who can know all this psychology stuff!!

Well...it seems to have worked on two of them. And that's a lot better than none. I think it could work on the third, too, but you have to know what training to do, first. And of course now you are working from the standpoint of trying to isolate the cause of a problem, and that might be nearly impossible.

[Edited 1/28/11 23:51pm]

have been for last 5 years actually!

paintedlady said:

ZombieKitten said:

I won't hit my kids. Hitting this child will make us as evil as he accuses us of being.

I prefer to take away the things they love most, bed toys, wii turns etc. However, my child (who is 9) is NOT fine with it, he can be so upset he sobs in his room for HOURS, but STILL doesn't understand what his little 6 year old brother has understood since he was 3.

[Edited 1/28/11 23:35pm]

He's a smart cookie for sure. He has a sophisticated way of thinking.

Maybe rewards work for him? He may be one of those anti-discipline ... work for rewards and acknowledgement type kids?

You may have already tried.

he definitely works for rewards, but only until he receives the reward, then it's an instant revert.

He responds to kindness and affection and calmness.

We have tried/are trying everything, believe me

His brothers value money and will work hard for it eagerly. This one, NOT he CAN complete tasks to pay you back for money you loan him, but getting him to do it can be gruelling.

BklynBabe said:

I feel ya ZK! I have that exact problem with my nephew because of the ADHD. It's like he has a mental block against ackrite. I did have to give spankings, because I'm evil, but also tried everything else. Boarding school has been a blessing. Now if only I could get the grown one to ackrite.... Some people really aren't born with ackrite or common sense, and worse, have no intention to get any.

My kid has sensory processing disorder, so when he is wound up, he can't calm down. And he gets wound up ALL THE TIME over misunderstandings. He will understand the sentence

"This is a warning, NEXT time I have to ask you again, no wii tomorrow"

as

"…no wii tomorrow"

and then work himself up into an emotional state he can't deal with. While he is in that state, almost a trance, he can't hear us talking. We have to wait until he is calm again, and try again - and usually he will misunderstand us again since he seems to hear what he is expecting to hear ("NO") and is reaction seems pre-prepared - ie. before I have even finished a sentence he has already run to his room and shut the door

johnart said:

ZombieKitten said:

because they are scared of litigation and bad press is why

not because they don't want to, or that those parents aren't out of line

There was a restaurant here called Lynch's that had started a no children under 12 policy - to the extent where there was a plaque on the door outside.

reviews like the following ensued:

Alana writes (visited Mon Nov 21 15:15:51 2005):
I think that the fact that no children are allowed is DISPICABLE!!! I didn't know about the policy untill i got there and was asked to take my child away! i was appauled! just because there children doesn't meen we should look down on them. I will definatly be putting off allm of my friends to this disgusting restaraunt and you shoul;d all get a life!!!

it got HUGE media coverage, I remember, LOADS of bad press

Maybe it was their approach. I think if you approach it sensibly you would definitely have a clientele. We went to an Adults Only resort (not the Chika-Pow-Wa kind) when we went to Mexico. They have a huge clientele and it was HEAVEN There were not swarms of parents picketing LET MY CHILDREN IN at the gates.

I don't see why restaurants couldn't get away with the same thing if they know how to approach it.

At the very least, I would have a restaurant that had a "Kids Section" and an Adult side.

Do you guys, in the states, have bistros with indoor playgrounds at the end?

We have a plethora of these. They have rooms with slots for the pensioners, family bistro, public bar (18+) some even have a nightclub. They are like a whole entertainment complex

ie:

http://www.sandbelthotel.com.au/

When faced with a choice of restaurant where food is slow to arrive and there is nothing for kids to do, or a family bistro (at least 1-3 in every suburb here) the choice is easy - ven RSL clubs have playgrounds (soundproof rooms!! with playstations, Plasma screens with disney movies, slides, climbing gym etc). We choose family bistros EVERY time! The food is great, and even our OWN kids don't bother us except to come to the table to wolf down their nuggets

And the appeal to parents is that they are NOT a kids restaurant (there is a bar in there). It's like a normal restaurant where kids have a space to go (saturday nights balloon animals and face-painting)

perhaps there is a market for this kind of thing over there??

therevolutionwillnotbe said:

Children throwing temper tantrums is unacceptable. If parents do not know how to train their offspring to act civil in public establishments and they do not have sense enough to take that drama outside, management should ask them to leave. Children learn very young what they can and cannot get away with. No one to blame here but the parents. You need a license to own a dog, but any idiot can have kids.

I totally agree, especially with the taking them outside or asking them to leave part. And without apologies, there is no excuse for your children ruining somebody elses day. If you're child is having a rough time of it and you know they're not going to calm down right now, take them home and try again later, or tomorrow (or whenever). It's not my problem that you chose to have children, or that they misbehave. I should not be tortured because this is the only time you can fit something into your schedule. There are exceptions (because there are exceptions to everything), but 9.75 our of every 10 times these rules should apply. I mean seriously, can adults do this? No! They'd be kicked out, probably asked to never come back, possible arrested, or all of the above.

John, I was in a grocery store JUST LAST NIGHT and half the store was commenting on a child in a shopping cart that just kept crying and screaming something over and over and over at the top of his lungs. It was hard to make out at first, but it sounded like "I want to die!!!!!!" So as the couple starts down the isle I'm in with their one child perfectly well behaved walking next to them and the screaming demon stuffed into the big part of the basket (which he was still too big for - the kid was at least seven or eight) I see a guy they pass say something to the Dad. I'm guessing it was a joking, "he's not having a good day" kind of thing, because the Dad responds with, "Oh, he's always like this." WTF?! Dude! There's two of you shopping! One of you stay home with the Satan child! Anyway, a few seconds later I finally figured out the kid was screaming and crying (like, with snot coming out his nose) "I want a toy!!!!!" Not "I want to die!!!!" But I swear that's what it sounded like. Anyway, long story, sorry. But while I was in the checkout line and this screaming had been going on for at least fifteen minutes (with the parents just totally ignoring it) somebody complained and the manager asked them to take the child outside. Hoo-fuckin-ray! The child was still screaming in the parking lot when I left.

therevolutionwillnotbe said:

Children throwing temper tantrums is unacceptable. If parents do not know how to train their offspring to act civil in public establishments and they do not have sense enough to take that drama outside, management should ask them to leave. Children learn very young what they can and cannot get away with. No one to blame here but the parents. You need a license to own a dog, but any idiot can have kids.

Young children throwing temper tantrums is completely NORMAL and has nothing to do with home training. Sure, there are cases of bad parenting, but even the 'best' parent can have a kid totally lose their shit when they are really tired.

The parents are most certainly to blame but NOT because they kids are acting up, but because 9 times out of 10 they are dragging these poor young kids out when they are tired and hungry and utterly bored and whatever else is going on in their little lives.

Expecting a young child to act like an adult is absolutely ridiculous, the only thing more ridiculous is bringing a child into an adult environment in the first place.

I agree that there should be kid sections in some situations...but most of all I believe that parents should not drag little ones out to non-kid friendly environments.

My son had a temper tantrum once - in a grocery store. It was my fault and I knew it so we went home and he had his nap and all was fine.

[Edited 1/29/11 16:09pm]

JustErin said:

therevolutionwillnotbe said:

Children throwing temper tantrums is unacceptable. If parents do not know how to train their offspring to act civil in public establishments and they do not have sense enough to take that drama outside, management should ask them to leave. Children learn very young what they can and cannot get away with. No one to blame here but the parents. You need a license to own a dog, but any idiot can have kids.

Young children throwing temper tantrums is completely NORMAL and has nothing to do with home training. Sure, there are cases of bad parenting, but even the 'best' parent can have a kid totally lose their shit when they are really tired.

The parents are most certainly to blame but NOT because they kids are acting up, but because 9 times out of 10 they are dragging these poor young kids out when they are tired and hungry and utterly bored and whatever else is going on in their little lives.

Expecting a young child to act like an adult is absolutely ridiculous, the only thing more ridiculous is bringing a child into an adult environment in the first place.

I agree that there should be kid sections in some situations...but most of all I believe that parents should not drag little ones out to none kid friendly environments.

My son had a temper tantrum once - in a grocery store. It was my fault and I knew it so we went home and he had his nap and all was fine.

I agree with what you're saying here, but I want to clarify something. I don't expect kids to act like adults, I expect adults to act like resonsible, respectful, mannerly human beings. If your kid starts behaving that way it is not OK to let it continue for five, ten, or however many minutes, thereby making the people around you uncomfortable (even if it doesn't bother you), because it's "just a kid".

All yous and yours are general and undirected.

Cerebus said:

JustErin said:

Young children throwing temper tantrums is completely NORMAL and has nothing to do with home training. Sure, there are cases of bad parenting, but even the 'best' parent can have a kid totally lose their shit when they are really tired.

The parents are most certainly to blame but NOT because they kids are acting up, but because 9 times out of 10 they are dragging these poor young kids out when they are tired and hungry and utterly bored and whatever else is going on in their little lives.

Expecting a young child to act like an adult is absolutely ridiculous, the only thing more ridiculous is bringing a child into an adult environment in the first place.

I agree that there should be kid sections in some situations...but most of all I believe that parents should not drag little ones out to none kid friendly environments.

My son had a temper tantrum once - in a grocery store. It was my fault and I knew it so we went home and he had his nap and all was fine.

I agree with what you're saying here, but I want to clarify something. I don't expect kids to act like adults, I expect adults to act like resonsible, respectful, mannerly human beings. If your kid starts behaving that way it is not OK to let it continue for five, ten, or however many minutes, thereby making the people around you uncomfortable (even if it doesn't bother you), because it's "just a kid".

All yous and yours are general and undirected.

I'm sure you would find most parents actually do remove themselves and their child IF something like this happens The ones you notice are the ones who are actually morons who simply don't have any kind of empathy or compassion for their fellow shoppers.

ZombieKitten said:

Cerebus said:

I agree with what you're saying here, but I want to clarify something. I don't expect kids to act like adults, I expect adults to act like resonsible, respectful, mannerly human beings. If your kid starts behaving that way it is not OK to let it continue for five, ten, or however many minutes, thereby making the people around you uncomfortable (even if it doesn't bother you), because it's "just a kid".

All yous and yours are general and undirected.

I'm sure you would find most parents actually do remove themselves and their child IF something like this happens The ones you notice are the ones who are actually morons who simply don't have any kind of empathy or compassion for their fellow shoppers.

Zombie, I like you - I mean I really, really do. You're one of my favorite people around here. But you are clearly grossly unaware of how many morons inhabit this planet.

kewlschool said:

johnart said:

Maybe it was their approach. I think if you approach it sensibly you would definitely have a clientele. We went to an Adults Only resort (not the Chika-Pow-Wa kind) when we went to Mexico. They have a huge clientele and it was HEAVEN There were not swarms of parents picketing LET MY CHILDREN IN at the gates.

I don't see why restaurants couldn't get away with the same thing if they know how to approach it.

At the very least, I would have a restaurant that had a "Kids Section" and an Adult side.

[Edited 1/29/11 11:04am]

I feel your pain, but they do have adult sections-it's called the bar.

And that's great, to get a drink and appetizer. I'm not eating my meals at no bar to accomodate screaming children. Fuck that shit.

Cerebus said:

ZombieKitten said:

I'm sure you would find most parents actually do remove themselves and their child IF something like this happens The ones you notice are the ones who are actually morons who simply don't have any kind of empathy or compassion for their fellow shoppers.

Zombie, I like you - I mean I really, really do. You're one of my favorite people around here. But you are clearly grossly unaware of how many morons inhabit this planet.

No, I know there are a lot of morons. I see them on TV all the time on reality shows from the US perhaps your nation is too lenient with it's morons? I mean, they wouldn't all be behaving like that if they didn't think they could get away with it, right?

ZombieKitten said:

Cerebus said:

Zombie, I like you - I mean I really, really do. You're one of my favorite people around here. But you are clearly grossly unaware of how many morons inhabit this planet.

No, I know there are a lot of morons. I see them on TV all the time on reality shows from the US perhaps your nation is too lenient with it's morons? I mean, they wouldn't all be behaving like that if they didn't think they could get away with it, right?

Cerebus said:

ZombieKitten said:

No, I know there are a lot of morons. I see them on TV all the time on reality shows from the US perhaps your nation is too lenient with it's morons? I mean, they wouldn't all be behaving like that if they didn't think they could get away with it, right?

Ladies, please.

johnart said:

Cerebus said:

Ladies, please.

Eh, whatever. No big deal. Just totally and completely changed my opinion of her is all.

Cerebus said:

johnart said:

Ladies, please.

Eh, whatever. No big deal. Just totally and completely changed my opinion of her is all.

you need to come visit me I will take you to the supermarket and a restaurant

ZombieKitten said:

Cerebus said:

Eh, whatever. No big deal. Just totally and completely changed my opinion of her is all.

you need to come visit me I will take you to the supermarket and a restaurant

With your kids?

JustErin said:

ZombieKitten said:

you need to come visit me I will take you to the supermarket and a restaurant

With your kids?

FUCK NO!!!!!

Not being able to have kids is one of the advantages of being gay.

Y'all are some child-hatin' muthafuckas.

I wish we were all in the supermarket so I could instruct my 3 year old nephew to take out some folks' achilles with the trolley.

Fauxie said:

Y'all are some child-hatin' muthafuckas.

I wish we were all in the supermarket so I could instruct my 3 year old nephew to take out some folks' achilles with the trolley.

omg that really hurts almost as much as coming down hard on a lego in the carpet with your KNEE

Fauxie said:

Y'all are some child-hatin' muthafuckas.

I wish we were all in the supermarket so I could instruct my 3 year old nephew to take out some folks' achilles with the trolley.

I'd welcome that.

I can accidentally drop a kid to the ground like no one's business.

OOPS HONEY are you OK, OMG!!!

ZombieKitten said:

Cerebus said:

Eh, whatever. No big deal. Just totally and completely changed my opinion of her is all.

you need to come visit me I will take you to the supermarket and a restaurant

Well you clearly need to learn more about America. Because our TV programs don't resemble 99% our population in the least. Do yours? And does your country punish it's moronic parents in some way that I'm unaware of? ..... aaaaanyway.