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Thread started 08/06/10 6:29am

PositivityNYC

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Monogamy, or "negotiated infidelity" ?

CNN posted this the other day.... The responses on Facebook, umm, varied lol -- but one that kinda stayed with me was by a woman named Quantisha who was brief and to the point; she simply stated: That bitch out her mind

lol

I've never been in an "open relationship." While I do find the idea of it kind of interesting, I'm really not sure I would be able to tell my guy "Sure, go ahead.." or be able to sleep w/someone else w/o feeling guilty (even with 'permission' lol ) -- I mean, how do you know protection is **always** in use w/the other person -? and it's not like I'd wanna watch to make sure he used any/have him watch me and another guy lol hmph!

Sex/relationships seem so... complicated (?) these days... hmph!

http://www.cnn.com/2010/L...index.html (has video)

'Sugarbabe' favors negotiated infidelity
By Shanon Cook, Special to CNN
August 3, 2010 8:51 a.m. EDT

New York (CNN) -- Could letting your man sleep with another woman help your relationship?

Author and former mistress Holly Hill thinks so.

"One of the main things that I have learned is that a woman that negotiates infidelity with her partner is far more powerful than a woman who is sitting home wondering why he's late from the office Christmas party," she says.

"It's better to walk the dog on a leash than let it escape through an unseen hole in the back fence."

Hill's memoir, "Sugarbabe" details her yearlong adventure with a series of so-called "sugar daddies." The book sold 24,000 copies in her native Australia, according to her publisher, and has just been released in the United States. Holly Hill is a pen name.

"I thought it was men that would like the book," she says, "But in fact it's women, because what it says to women is that if your man cheats on you, he still loves you, and he's probably running about average."

Allowing their men to stray is a concept that's difficult for most women to contemplate.

But Hill says that if a woman takes the time to truly examine her relationship and considers Mother Nature's unerring spell on men's libidos, she might realize that letting her boyfriend or spouse know she's OK with him having sex elsewhere is a logical way to prevent him from doing it in secret.

"I think that cheating men are normal," says Hill. "Monogamous men are heroes. Monogamy does have a place in relationships, but not on the long-term. Men are hard-wired to betray women on the long-term."

But psychology professor Lawrence Josephs believes it is more personality type than gender that indicates whether a person might cheat.

"People who are higher in narcissim -- whether they are male or female -- are more likely to cheat. People who feel entitled to it, people who have what's called avoidant attachment style where they tend to have more impersonal sex," are more prone to straying, he said.

The professor also said people who experience lower levels of empathy or guilt tend to engage in more infidelity.

Hill says, that of course it's every woman's right to refuse to have sex when she's not in the mood or has a headache. However, expecting men to cope on their own with no outlet whatsoever is shortsighted and cruel, says Hill.

The author, who holds a psychology degree from the University of Southern Queensland, says her experience as a "sugarbabe" taught her some valuable lessons about what drives men to seek sex outside marriage.

Finding herself in financial dire straits after her married boyfriend unexpectedly dumped her four years ago (he had persuaded her to quit her job and enjoy his financial support as part of "the mistress plan"), she decided to get creative about her employment options.

Hill, who was 39 at the time, posted an ad online announcing her search for a sugar daddy, someone who would pay her $1,000 a week in exchange for her company, cooking, conversation, massages and, when they desired it, sex. She says the ad attracted 11,000 responses.

At the time, Hill says she saw a distinct difference between what she was doing and prostitution.

"I thought that because I was a 24/7 exclusive mistress that I wasn't part of the world's oldest profession, but with hindsight I was, because what I was doing ... I was charging men for services, part of which included sex," says Hill.

However, she adds, any married woman who no longer loves her husband but continues to have sex with him to retain the comforts of being married could also be considered part of that oldest profession.

Most of Hill's "daddies" were wealthy married men who surprisingly often opted for conversation, she says. While entertaining with red wine and exotic food platters she'd prepare in her Sydney apartment, Hill learned that most of these men sought her attention because they simply weren't getting enough sex from their wives.

"Men need to get their rocks off," says Hill. "If a woman crosses her legs for any length of time and doesn't arrange some sort of alternative for her man, he is going to cheat on her."

By alternatives, Hill is referring to her idea of "negotiated infidelity." That shouldn't be confused with an open relationship, which to Hill "has no rules." Nor does it imply that it's necessary that a wife allow her husband to hop into bed with whomever he chooses -- unless of course she's OK with that. Hill says negotiated infidelity could mean hubby makes a trip to the local strip club for the occasional lap dance or updates his porn collection.

And in no way does it have to be a one-way street.

"Ideally the woman will want to stray as well," says Hill. "Some won't want to because they're at home taking care of toddlers. But the woman definitely needs to negotiate infidelity as well, especially because that will generate her man's competitive nature. The more lovers the woman has, the more attraction the man will have for his partner."

But how do women -- and men for that matter -- get past those ingrained feelings of possessiveness and jealousy?

"Women need to remember the difference between why women and men have sex," she says. "Women tend to value intimacy. For men it's often the thrill of the chase, or the quick sex with a stranger. Men don't even have to know their lovers' names! It's often just a cheap thrill and has nothing to do with us as a loving girlfriend or wife. Once we understand that, it's much easier to let him go off."

But Josephs doesn't think understanding will overcome jealousy.

"I think what's universal is that no one likes sharing partners -- whether you're male or female. I think jealousy is a kind of universal emotion," the professor said.

Her sugarbabe days now over, Hill lets her boyfriend of two years, Phil Dean "go off" on occasion. Hill says she believes negotiating their infidelity has been instrumental in keeping their relationship strong and committed, not to mention electric.

"[Dean] can have sex with the Australian women's basketball team for all I care, but he can't spoon any of them," says Hill. "For me, spooning is cheating."

Dean, 45, who works for an insurance company in Sydney, jokes that he hasn't slept with any members of the Australian basketball team. But he is a big supporter of negotiated infidelity.

"I was actually very relieved when Holly and I started to speak about it [at the beginning of the relationship]," he says. "She asked me if I'd be happy in a monogamous long-term relationship and I had to say 'no'."

And while Dean says he doesn't get jealous when Holly spends time with another lover, some of his male friends are certainly jealous of his relationship's flexibility.

"Some think it couldn't get any better than what I have," says Dean. "Some, however, don't want to embrace the concept. They feel protective of their partner and don't want to share."

Central to the idea of negotiated infidelity, Hill says, is each couple figuring out what their boundaries are. While she admits she shed a few tears at the start of her relationship as she and Dean tested their comfort levels with different arrangements (Dean also says it has definitely been a learning process), they're now very clear about what they will and won't allow.

While Dean has the green light to have sex with other women, he's not permitted to stay overnight. He also can't take his lovers away for romantic weekends. And Hill says she'll have an all-out hissy fit if he spoons another woman.

Hill, on the other hand, is allowed to spoon her lovers because Dean has no problem with that and recognizes that intimacy is an important part of sex for women. Hill isn't, however, allowed to wear any of the outfits Dean has bought for her when she meets up with a lover.

But how can Hill be sure Dean isn't spooning if she isn't there?

"If you're talking about sexual needs honestly with your partner, you get better at communicating with each other, you get better with honesty," says Hill. "Everything is out in the open and you have an honest relationship according to your man's biology, not according to some outdated social norms." (Hill is working on another book that will address why women also like to venture outside their marriages for sex.)

Those rules sound artificial to Marcella Weiner, adjunct professor of Marymount Manhattan College and author of "Repairing Your Marriage After His Affair: A Woman's Guide to Hope and Healing."

"Unless you're totally dead inside of you and have no heart or no brains or no anything -- when you're with another person, you're with another person," said Weiner. "It's not just here's my penis, here's your vagina that's it. It is for some people -- but that's a mechanical kind of thing."

While it may not be for everyone, Hill is optimistic that if more people embraced the idea of negotiated infidelity, cheating could become a thing of the past, leading to fewer divorces and truly happy lifelong relationships.

"We just have to be honest about the way nature created us, and we have to work with nature instead of working against her. This isn't rocket science. This is what every man already knows and I think what every woman deep down already knows."

Hag. Muse. Web Goddess. Taurean. Tree Hugger. Poet. Professional Nerd. Geek.
"Resistance is futile." "All shall love me and despair!"
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Reply #1 posted 08/06/10 6:33am

CarrieMpls

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I read that article too.

I can’t tell anyone what they should do to keep themselves happy, but for me, hell no.

If a man can’t remain loyal to me I want nothing to do with him.

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Reply #2 posted 08/06/10 6:43am

Genesia

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The men this woman took money from to be their "mistress" had not "negotiated" anything. That - and the money she took - makes her a ho. hmph!

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #3 posted 08/06/10 6:44am

ZombieKitten

I read that book, it was depressing

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Reply #4 posted 08/06/10 6:53am

SHOCKADELICA1

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"Negotiated infidelity"??? Yeah, whatevs rolleyes

RIDICULOUS concept. disbelief

DON'T be in a relationship if u wanna fuck around. Simple as that.

"Bring friends, bring your children and bring foot spray 'cause it's gon' be funky." ~ Prince

A kiss on the lips, is betta than a knife in the back ~ Sheila E

Darkness isn't the absence of light, it's the absence of U ~ Prince
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Reply #5 posted 08/06/10 6:59am

PositivityNYC

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Genesia said:

The men this woman took money from to be their "mistress" had not "negotiated" anything. That - and the money she took - makes her a ho. hmph!

lol

Hag. Muse. Web Goddess. Taurean. Tree Hugger. Poet. Professional Nerd. Geek.
"Resistance is futile." "All shall love me and despair!"
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Reply #6 posted 08/06/10 7:01am

PositivityNYC

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CarrieMpls said:

I read that article too.

I can’t tell anyone what they should do to keep themselves happy, but for me, hell no.

If a man can’t remain loyal to me I want nothing to do with him.

what I don't get are they guys that if you tell them you want/need monogamy - and they agree to it -

that when they cheat, and you leave them, they keep trying to get you to come back.... hmph! lol

If you're not trustworthy..... rolleyes lol

Hag. Muse. Web Goddess. Taurean. Tree Hugger. Poet. Professional Nerd. Geek.
"Resistance is futile." "All shall love me and despair!"
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Reply #7 posted 08/06/10 8:09am

novabrkr

Updating your porn collection means you're cheating? confuse

I don't think the article specifies anything too weird to be honest. Many couples are perfectly aware that they cheat each other every now and then. That's what "going to a club with friends", "visits to a cabin" and "cruises" over here seem to mean. I'm not sure if most speak about it openly to their partners, but I don't think people are in general so stupid that they wouldn't know what's going on. For many people there are other reasons to continue living together under the same roof than just clinging onto ideals of sexual monogamy.

Do I myself approve of it or not? I don't know.

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Reply #8 posted 08/06/10 8:28am

sextonseven

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novabrkr said:

Updating your porn collection means you're cheating? confuse

If it does then women in relationships have to get rid of their vibrators.

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Reply #9 posted 08/06/10 8:35am

PositivityNYC

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novabrkr said:

Updating your porn collection means you're cheating? confuse

I thought that was weird, too..

also... I thought open relationships had to have some rules... otherwise, you're just room mates.. no -?

Hag. Muse. Web Goddess. Taurean. Tree Hugger. Poet. Professional Nerd. Geek.
"Resistance is futile." "All shall love me and despair!"
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Reply #10 posted 08/06/10 8:44am

sextonseven

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Genesia said:

The men this woman took money from to be their "mistress" had not "negotiated" anything. That - and the money she took - makes her a ho. hmph!

She admitted she was a ho. lol

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Reply #11 posted 08/06/10 8:53am

novabrkr

Actually, the part about spooning is hilarious.

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Reply #12 posted 08/06/10 9:15am

MacDaddy

Personally I don't believe in 100% monogamy. It is something that I'd like to strive for in a relationship, but I could never promise you that I would be 100% faithful physically.

So an open relationship should theoretically work for me.

But it's a slippery slope once you go there. There have to be rules, but not too many. Otherwise it is something you need to plan, which takes the spontaneity away.

In my last relationship my now ex-boyfriend kept on changing the rules into his favor, once we started to have an open relationship. And I went along for a while for the sake of the love and friendship for each other. But eventually it got to a point where the balance was completely gone.

Now, I'm a fool for love and like I said, I don't expect my boyfriend to be completely monogamous, because I can't promise it either. But if meeting other guys becomes more important than the relationship you're in, you should NOT be in a relationship. Or find someone who can go for that.

I couldn't, so end of relationship.

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Reply #13 posted 08/06/10 9:31am

Genesia

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sextonseven said:

Genesia said:

The men this woman took money from to be their "mistress" had not "negotiated" anything. That - and the money she took - makes her a ho. hmph!

She admitted she was a ho. lol

Then the article is really about, "How to be a ho" - not "negotiated infidelity." Whatever the fuck that really means. lol

Which reminds me of...

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #14 posted 08/06/10 9:42am

JustErin

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Hill says, that of course it's every woman's right to refuse to have sex when she's not in the mood or has a headache. However, expecting men to cope on their own with no outlet whatsoever is shortsighted and cruel, says Hill.

"I thought that because I was a 24/7 exclusive mistress that I wasn't part of the world's oldest profession, but with hindsight I was, because what I was doing ... I was charging men for services, part of which included sex," says Hill.

However, she adds, any married woman who no longer loves her husband but continues to have sex with him to retain the comforts of being married could also be considered part of that oldest profession.

"Men need to get their rocks off," says Hill. "If a woman crosses her legs for any length of time and doesn't arrange some sort of alternative for her man, he is going to cheat on her."

By alternatives, Hill is referring to her idea of "negotiated infidelity." That shouldn't be confused with an open relationship, which to Hill "has no rules." Nor does it imply that it's necessary that a wife allow her husband to hop into bed with whomever he chooses -- unless of course she's OK with that. Hill says negotiated infidelity could mean hubby makes a trip to the local strip club for the occasional lap dance or updates his porn collection.

"If you're talking about sexual needs honestly with your partner, you get better at communicating with each other, you get better with honesty," says Hill. "Everything is out in the open and you have an honest relationship according to your man's biology, not according to some outdated social norms." (Hill is working on another book that will address why women also like to venture outside their marriages for sex.)


I agree with all of this.

And I definitely disagree with this:

Those rules sound artificial to Marcella Weiner, adjunct professor of Marymount Manhattan College and author of "Repairing Your Marriage After His Affair: A Woman's Guide to Hope and Healing."

"Unless you're totally dead inside of you and have no heart or no brains or no anything -- when you're with another person, you're with another person," said Weiner. "It's not just here's my penis, here's your vagina that's it. It is for some people -- but that's a mechanical kind of thing."

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Reply #15 posted 08/06/10 11:43am

PositivityNYC

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Genesia said:

Then the article is really about, "How to be a ho" - not "negotiated infidelity." Whatever the fuck that really means. lol

Which reminds me of...

lol lol

Hag. Muse. Web Goddess. Taurean. Tree Hugger. Poet. Professional Nerd. Geek.
"Resistance is futile." "All shall love me and despair!"
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Reply #16 posted 08/06/10 11:55am

Lammastide

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I personally expect and am committed to physical monogamy with my wife. How other people make their relationships work is their business. At the very least, though, I tend to think fidelity to arrangements made in the mutual candor of all parties involved should be a non-negotiable standard. Ideally, everyone should know what they're getting into.

[Edited 8/6/10 14:41pm]

Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ
πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν
τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.”
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Reply #17 posted 08/06/10 12:24pm

Cinnie

"People who are higher in narcissism -- whether they are male or female -- are more likely to cheat. People who feel entitled to it, people who have what's called avoidant attachment style where they tend to have more impersonal sex," are more prone to straying, he said.

Truth.

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Reply #18 posted 08/06/10 1:44pm

Hershe

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Leave Her Man Alone!

There's a book.
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Reply #19 posted 08/06/10 1:48pm

SupaFunkyOrgan
grinderSexy

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I live in a world where Open relationships are the norm and monogamy isn't expected. If I truly love someone, it isn't in my heart to accept that they are with other people. however I don't see monogomy on the horizon any time soon and in certain ways that makes me sad. I'm tired of dating other people's fucking husbands hammer lol

2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740
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Reply #20 posted 08/06/10 3:00pm

PositivityNYC

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Cinnie said:

"People who are higher in narcissism -- whether they are male or female -- are more likely to cheat. People who feel entitled to it, people who have what's called avoidant attachment style where they tend to have more impersonal sex," are more prone to straying, he said.

Truth.

yeah.. I've never done that either

been tempted.. lol but....

sex is the most personal thing you share with someone else, IMHO... I've never been with anybody I didn't genuinely care about, and genuinely believed cared about me

Hag. Muse. Web Goddess. Taurean. Tree Hugger. Poet. Professional Nerd. Geek.
"Resistance is futile." "All shall love me and despair!"
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Reply #21 posted 08/06/10 5:10pm

SantaSanta

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Cinnie said:

"People who are higher in narcissism -- whether they are male or female -- are more likely to cheat. People who feel entitled to it, people who have what's called avoidant attachment style where they tend to have more impersonal sex," are more prone to straying, he said.

Truth.

I agree with this nod most people I know who have cheated tend to be very narcissistic and feel entitled to it.

Don't ask me why.
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Reply #22 posted 08/06/10 9:39pm

Cinnie

SantaSanta said:

Cinnie said:

Truth.

I agree with this nod most people I know who have cheated tend to be very narcissistic and feel entitled to it.

And any appeal to that narcissism was what made them make the choice.

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Reply #23 posted 08/06/10 11:25pm

SantaSanta

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Cinnie said:

SantaSanta said:

I agree with this nod most people I know who have cheated tend to be very narcissistic and feel entitled to it.

And any appeal to that narcissism was what made them make the choice.

So... if you want to eff them, all you got to do is stroke their ego; make them feel they are doing you a "favor." LOL lol

Don't ask me why.
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Reply #24 posted 08/08/10 6:42am

BklynBabe

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hmmm

Hill, who was 39 at the time, posted an ad online announcing her search for a sugar daddy, someone who would pay her $1,000 a week in exchange for her company, cooking, conversation, massages and, when they desired it, sex. She says the ad attracted 11,000 responses.

that's quite lucrative.....

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Reply #25 posted 08/08/10 6:45am

Genesia

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BklynBabe said:

hmmm

Hill, who was 39 at the time, posted an ad online announcing her search for a sugar daddy, someone who would pay her $1,000 a week in exchange for her company, cooking, conversation, massages and, when they desired it, sex. She says the ad attracted 11,000 responses.

that's quite lucrative.....

$1000 a week? To be on 24-hour call? That's about 10 bucks an hour.

She's not just a ho - she's a cheap ho. disbelief

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #26 posted 08/09/10 12:27am

Arnotts

MacDaddy said:

But if meeting other guys becomes more important than the relationship you're in, you should NOT be in a relationship. Or find someone who can go for that.

Most people wouldnt be in the relationships they're in if they could get the person/people they wanted. Majority of people settle which is why cheating is so high. Now I'm not the most amazing looking woman in the world but I'm better looking than my friends and 3 out of 4 of my closest friends boyfriends have made a pass at me. None of them know it and probably think their boyfriends are the most monogamous loving boyfriends in the world. Its disgusting and the exact reason I've never had a boyfriend as I know it would go on behind the scenes with better looking girls for me too. I've seen it in too many couples for it to be my friends just having shitty boyfriends. So I think people who know about their partners infidelity's and accept it are actually pretty sensible.

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Reply #27 posted 08/09/10 5:47am

JoeTyler

Arnotts said:

I'm better looking than my friends and 3 out of 4 of my closest friends boyfriends have made a pass at me. None of them know it and probably think their boyfriends are the most monogamous loving boyfriends in the world. Its disgusting and the exact reason I've never had a boyfriend as I know it would go on behind the scenes with better looking girls for me too. I've seen it in too many couples for it to be my friends just having shitty boyfriends.

eek neutral

say it loud, say it clear: MALES SUCK.PERIOD

right?

rolleyes

tinkerbell
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Reply #28 posted 08/09/10 2:01pm

Arnotts

JoeTyler said:

Arnotts said:

I'm better looking than my friends and 3 out of 4 of my closest friends boyfriends have made a pass at me. None of them know it and probably think their boyfriends are the most monogamous loving boyfriends in the world. Its disgusting and the exact reason I've never had a boyfriend as I know it would go on behind the scenes with better looking girls for me too. I've seen it in too many couples for it to be my friends just having shitty boyfriends.

eek neutral

say it loud, say it clear: MALES SUCK.PERIOD

right?

rolleyes

Yeah pretty much.

Although of course girls do it too. They just dont have as high a tendency to settle which is why they probably cheat less.

[Edited 8/9/10 14:05pm]

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Reply #29 posted 08/15/10 8:16am

PositivityNYC

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Genesia said:

BklynBabe said:

hmmm

that's quite lucrative.....

$1000 a week? To be on 24-hour call? That's about 10 bucks an hour.

She's not just a ho - she's a cheap ho. disbelief

lol lol

Hag. Muse. Web Goddess. Taurean. Tree Hugger. Poet. Professional Nerd. Geek.
"Resistance is futile." "All shall love me and despair!"
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