Graycap23 said:

uPtoWnNY said:

...and he had the deadliest weapon ever, the unstoppable sky hook. It was a thing of beauty to watch. It's a shame more big men don't learn it.

He used to crack me up hitting that shot from 15 plus feet.

I still use that shot on these young bucks when I play. They can't stop it.....lol.

Devastating.....

uPtoWnNY said:

Graycap23 said:

He used to crack me up hitting that shot from 15 plus feet.

I still use that shot on these young bucks when I play. They can't stop it.....lol.

Devastating.....

It has been my contention that Kareem was the main reason the Lakers won all of those titles.........NOT Magic.

RebirthOfCool said:

namepeace said:

Indeed, he had to sit behind players like Eddie Jones, but he was also able to learn and be brought along gradually. Eventually, Jerry West traded Eddie and Elden Campbell because, among other things, 1) Kobe couldn't play the game he wanted (he often went 1-on-3 instead of passing to an open Jones, who was one of the best trey shooters in the league at the time), and 2) Shaq wanted a "shooter" like Glen Rice. At the time of the trade, IMHO, Jones was their best player. It's the only move I bet Logo wishes he had back.

But I digress. What you mentioned is part of what I was referring to. I think going to a deep team put less pressure on him and aided his development as a player.

But if you keep Eddie, would Kobe have developed at the faster pace than he did? I think the trading of Eddie was moreo to develop Kobe at the 2, and EJ was keeping that from happening.

Fair point, but LA was on one of the hottest streaks they'd had since Magic retired when that trade went down. Losing Eddie and Elden wrecked the chemistry of the team that year and they were smoked by the Spurs. Everything had fallen into place; it was a strike-shortened year. Even Rodman was playing well.

Plus, think about if they'd retained Eddie until after Phil had gotten there? He was an ideal fit for the Triangle and could have played with Kobe at the same time. Plus, Elden was a serviceable big they could have used down the road too.

All's well that ends well, but still.

namepeace said:

RebirthOfCool said:

But if you keep Eddie, would Kobe have developed at the faster pace than he did? I think the trading of Eddie was moreo to develop Kobe at the 2, and EJ was keeping that from happening.

Fair point, but LA was on one of the hottest streaks they'd had since Magic retired when that trade went down. Losing Eddie and Elden wrecked the chemistry of the team that year and they were smoked by the Spurs. Everything had fallen into place; it was a strike-shortened year. Even Rodman was playing well.

Plus, think about if they'd retained Eddie until after Phil had gotten there? He was an ideal fit for the Triangle and could have played with Kobe at the same time. Plus, Elden was a serviceable big they could have used down the road too.

All's well that ends well, but still.

But the wash is this: They didn't win a title with elden & Eddie, but they did won one with Rice & kobe, and then went on to win 2 straight.

Graycap23 said:

uPtoWnNY said:

Devastating.....

It has been my contention that Kareem was the main reason the Lakers won all of those titles.........NOT Magic.

Um wasn't Kareem injured when Magic then a rookie scored 42 pts playing center

in the 1980 finals. Kareem was a component but Magic was the straw that stirred

the drink. Kareem wouldn't have sniffed a ring as a Laker without Magic.

The Sonics were dominating the West before Magic arrived.

Graycap23 said:

uPtoWnNY said:

Devastating.....

It has been my contention that Kareem was the main reason the Lakers won all of those titles.........NOT Magic.

Naw, Maj was the impetus of that team while Cap was the anchor.

phunkdaddy said:

Graycap23 said:

It has been my contention that Kareem was the main reason the Lakers won all of those titles.........NOT Magic.

Um wasn't Kareem injured when Magic then a rookie scored 42 pts playing center

in the 1980 finals. Kareem was a component but Magic was the straw that stirred

the drink. Kareem wouldn't have sniffed a ring as a Laker without Magic.

The Sonics were dominating the West before Magic arrived.

Does 1 game win an NBA championship?

RebirthOfCool said:

namepeace said:

Fair point, but LA was on one of the hottest streaks they'd had since Magic retired when that trade went down. Losing Eddie and Elden wrecked the chemistry of the team that year and they were smoked by the Spurs. Everything had fallen into place; it was a strike-shortened year. Even Rodman was playing well.

Plus, think about if they'd retained Eddie until after Phil had gotten there? He was an ideal fit for the Triangle and could have played with Kobe at the same time. Plus, Elden was a serviceable big they could have used down the road too.

All's well that ends well, but still.

But the wash is this: They didn't win a title with elden & Eddie, but they did won one with Rice & kobe, and then went on to win 2 straight.

Phil was the difference, as he's proven to be in the decade since. Had he been in LA in 1999 they'd have won the title with Elden and Eddie. Point was, Jordan didn't have that luxury (an All-Star caliber player starting at the same position, and talented roster to develop behind). Bird didn't either. LA had Kareem, but the Lakers were down when Magic arrived. Kobe had a lot of advantages from jumpstreet, and the investment in him has been well worth it at day's end.

Graycap23 said:

phunkdaddy said:

Um wasn't Kareem injured when Magic then a rookie scored 42 pts playing center

in the 1980 finals. Kareem was a component but Magic was the straw that stirred

the drink. Kareem wouldn't have sniffed a ring as a Laker without Magic.

The Sonics were dominating the West before Magic arrived.

Does 1 game win an NBA championship?

Magic never won a title without Kareem after Kareem left (for various reasons).

Kareem never won a title before Magic got there.

But I agree. Magic was the It Factor for LA. While the halfcourt offense ran through Cap and he was a factor on defense for many years, it was Magic who facilitated the halfcourt offense and led the most devastating fastbreak offense in at least two generations if not ever. Clearly, the offense ran through Cap for years, but without Magic, LA couldn't have won like it did.

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:

Does 1 game win an NBA championship?

Magic never won a title without Kareem after Kareem left (for various reasons).

Kareem never won a title before Magic got there.

But I agree. Magic was the It Factor for LA. While the halfcourt offense ran through Cap and he was a factor on defense for many years, it was Magic who facilitated the halfcourt offense and led the most devastating fastbreak offense in at least two generations if not ever. Clearly, the offense ran through Cap for years, but without Magic, LA couldn't have won like it did.

Kareem won a title with the Bucks.

namepeace said:

RebirthOfCool said:

But the wash is this: They didn't win a title with elden & Eddie, but they did won one with Rice & kobe, and then went on to win 2 straight.

Phil was the difference, as he's proven to be in the decade since. Had he been in LA in 1999 they'd have won the title with Elden and Eddie. Point was, Jordan didn't have that luxury (an All-Star caliber player starting at the same position, and talented roster to develop behind). Bird didn't either. LA had Kareem, but the Lakers were down when Magic arrived. Kobe had a lot of advantages from jumpstreet, and the investment in him has been well worth it at day's end.

But had he'd been in L.A. before Kobe, he wouldn't have played Kobe, as Phil tends to slowly bring along youngins.

Graycap23 said:

phunkdaddy said:

Um wasn't Kareem injured when Magic then a rookie scored 42 pts playing center

in the 1980 finals. Kareem was a component but Magic was the straw that stirred

the drink. Kareem wouldn't have sniffed a ring as a Laker without Magic.

The Sonics were dominating the West before Magic arrived.

Does 1 game win an NBA championship?

The bold part says it all.

Graycap23 said:

namepeace said:

Magic never won a title without Kareem after Kareem left (for various reasons).

Kareem never won a title before Magic got there.

But I agree. Magic was the It Factor for LA. While the halfcourt offense ran through Cap and he was a factor on defense for many years, it was Magic who facilitated the halfcourt offense and led the most devastating fastbreak offense in at least two generations if not ever. Clearly, the offense ran through Cap for years, but without Magic, LA couldn't have won like it did.

Kareem won a title with the Bucks.

Had Lakers on the brain. It should have read, Kareem never won a title with the Lakers before Magic got there. They couldn't win in LA without each other.

RebirthOfCool said:

namepeace said:

Phil was the difference, as he's proven to be in the decade since. Had he been in LA in 1999 they'd have won the title with Elden and Eddie. Point was, Jordan didn't have that luxury (an All-Star caliber player starting at the same position, and talented roster to develop behind). Bird didn't either. LA had Kareem, but the Lakers were down when Magic arrived. Kobe had a lot of advantages from jumpstreet, and the investment in him has been well worth it at day's end.

But had he'd been in L.A. before Kobe, he wouldn't have played Kobe, as Phil tends to slowly bring along youngins.

Sure. But Kobe was about a year away from being truly elite anyway, so Kobe would have been the no. 2 option by 99-00.

(that is, if Phil hadn't tried to convince West to trade him with Jones as a viable option at 2 . but Phil prefers the 2-2's backcourt if he has the personnel so both may have stayed a while anyway.)

namepeace said:

RebirthOfCool said:

But had he'd been in L.A. before Kobe, he wouldn't have played Kobe, as Phil tends to slowly bring along youngins.

Sure. But Kobe was about a year away from being truly elite anyway, so Kobe would have been the no. 2 option by 99-00.

(that is, if Phil hadn't tried to convince West to trade him with Jones as a viable option at 2 . but Phil prefers the 2-2's backcourt if he has the personnel so both may have stayed a while anyway.)

Dawg, I cringe just thinking on how Phil probably would've fucked up Kobe's head early on with his Zen mind games.

RebirthOfCool said:

namepeace said:

Sure. But Kobe was about a year away from being truly elite anyway, so Kobe would have been the no. 2 option by 99-00.

(that is, if Phil hadn't tried to convince West to trade him with Jones as a viable option at 2 . but Phil prefers the 2-2's backcourt if he has the personnel so both may have stayed a while anyway.)

Dawg, I cringe just thinking on how Phil probably would've fucked up Kobe's head early on with his Zen mind games.

Roland Lazenby writes about that in his book, The Show. Phil would go out of his way to favor Shaq to try to put Kobe in his place. But you couldn't tell Kobe nothin' for nothin' then, ask his daddy.

You make good points, but man, you know how greedy Lakers fans like me are, and I say they coulda used Eddie's defense, smarts, and athleticism. They couldn't replace those qualities in a supporting player for nearly a decade, until they got Ariza (who when you take the Pau Gasol Christmas Gift out of the equation may have been Kupchak's best acquisition ever). And then he listened to his agent and walked away from a great thing, which still (eventually) paid off for the Lakers.

Nevertheless, like I said, the investment in Kobe has paid off, and five titles later, the moves that were made, even those I hated, got the intended results. As for Kpbe, if it weren't for him sitting behind Eddie Jones for a minute, he and D-Fish may not have developed the rapport and trust they have now. That was a benefit he couldn't get anywhere else.

KAreem wasn't even the best senter in the 80s, that was Moses Malone. In the 70s he was the best (but even old Wilt was taking him to school on those bad knees) and if Walton didn't get injured ...

Frank Isola, NY Daily News;

The Knicks are expected to sign veteran shooting guard Roger Mason to a one-year, $1.4 million contract.

Mason, who turns 30 next month, has averaged 7.2 points with four teams over six NBA seasons, the last two with San Antonio. The decision to pursue Mason comes after Shannon Brown, who considered joining the Knicks, decided to return to the Lakers.

The Knicks were also interested inPortland's Rudy Fernandez, but team president Donnie Walsh was reluctant to include a No. 1 pick in the deal. Fernandez could be headed to Chicago.

Yahoo! Sports is reporting that the Knicks are talking to the Rockets about a possible deal to reacquire Jared Jeffries that would include Eddy Curry heading to Houston. Jeffries enjoyed two solid seasons under Mike D'Antoni and, according to sources, would even entertain a buyout in order to return to New York.

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:

Kareem won a title with the Bucks.

Had Lakers on the brain. It should have read, Kareem never won a title with the Lakers before Magic got there. They couldn't win in LA without each other.

True but Kareem won a title without Magic..............Magic did NOT win one without Kareem.

Graycap23 said:

namepeace said:

Had Lakers on the brain. It should have read, Kareem never won a title with the Lakers before Magic got there. They couldn't win in LA without each other.

True but Kareem won a title without Magic..............Magic did NOT win one without Kareem.

What does that have to with the price of tea in China?

Kareem winning a title with Milwaukee was before my time. I only

knew Kareem as a Laker. Kareem wasn't seeing any parts of a title

with the Lakers until Magic arrived. Magic had very little opportunity to

win a title without Kareem. He was forced to retire early. It's not

inconceivable that Magic would have won another title or two if he

wasn't forced to retire early. Magic never enjoyed finishing second.

Graycap23 said:

namepeace said:

Had Lakers on the brain. It should have read, Kareem never won a title with the Lakers before Magic got there. They couldn't win in LA without each other.

True but Kareem won a title without Magic..............Magic did NOT win one without Kareem.

Oh, I know that. But the main question was who was most important to the Lakers success in the 80's, and I say Magic for the reasons cited above.

There is no doubt that Cap was so good, so smooth, and so efficient for so long people forget he was one of the 5 or 6 greatest players that ever lived. He was awesome. I mean, even on his last legs, he was incredible. People remember Magic's "junior junior" in the 1987 Finals, but don't note that Cap had a huge game in the series clincher to beat the C's for the title. And, he led the Lakers to their first victory over the C's in the Finals, including the Greatest Win In Laker History, Game 6, 1985 Finals.

No Cap, no dynasty.

But Magic was even that much more essential.

namepeace said:

RebirthOfCool said:

Dawg, I cringe just thinking on how Phil probably would've fucked up Kobe's head early on with his Zen mind games.

Roland Lazenby writes about that in his book, The Show. Phil would go out of his way to favor Shaq to try to put Kobe in his place. But you couldn't tell Kobe nothin' for nothin' then, ask his daddy.

You make good points, but man, you know how greedy Lakers fans like me are, and I say they coulda used Eddie's defense, smarts, and athleticism. They couldn't replace those qualities in a supporting player for nearly a decade, until they got Ariza (who when you take the Pau Gasol Christmas Gift out of the equation may have been Kupchak's best acquisition ever). And then he listened to his agent and walked away from a great thing, which still (eventually) paid off for the Lakers.

Nevertheless, like I said, the investment in Kobe has paid off, and five titles later, the moves that were made, even those I hated, got the intended results. As for Kpbe, if it weren't for him sitting behind Eddie Jones for a minute, he and D-Fish may not have developed the rapport and trust they have now. That was a benefit he couldn't get anywhere else.

Yeah, but there were 3 reasons they couldn't find a running mate at the swing spot for Kobe:

1 - The triangle. Not too many players like the triangle. Hell, Kobe didn't like it until Shaq left and Phil ran the MJ-version of it for him.

2 - It's hard to play the perimeter with a ball-dominating player like Kobe. He's the man and there's not much left to do for a big name swingman.

3 - Kobe: He had that stigma of being a ball hog and difficult to play with, and no big time free agent swingmen wanted to fuck with him.

phunkdaddy said:

Graycap23 said:

True but Kareem won a title without Magic..............Magic did NOT win one without Kareem.

What does that have to with the price of tea in China?

Kareem winning a title with Milwaukee was before my time. I only

knew Kareem as a Laker. Kareem wasn't seeing any parts of a title

with the Lakers until Magic arrived. Magic had very little opportunity to

win a title without Kareem. He was forced to retire early. It's not

inconceivable that Magic would have won another title or two if he

wasn't forced to retire early. Magic never enjoyed finishing second.

U mean...............like the way he did in 1990 against Jordan and Scottie?

Graycap23 said:

namepeace said:

Had Lakers on the brain. It should have read, Kareem never won a title with the Lakers before Magic got there. They couldn't win in LA without each other.

True but Kareem won a title without Magic..............Magic did NOT win one without Kareem.

Oh, I know that. But the main question was who was most important to the Lakers success in the 80's, and I say Magic for the reasons cited above.

There is no doubt that Cap was so good, so smooth, and so efficient for so long people forget he was one of the 5 or 6 greatest players that ever lived. He was awesome. I mean, even on his last legs, he was incredible. People remember Magic's "junior junior" in the 1987 Finals, but don't note that Cap had a huge game in the series clincher to beat the C's for the title. And, he led the Lakers to their first victory over the C's in the Finals, including the Greatest Win In Laker History, Game 6, 1985 Finals.

No Cap, no dynasty.

But Magic was even that much more essential.

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:

True but Kareem won a title without Magic..............Magic did NOT win one without Kareem.

Oh, I know that. But the main question was who was most important to the Lakers success in the 80's, and I say Magic for the reasons cited above.

There is no doubt that Cap was so good, so smooth, and so efficient for so long people forget he was one of the 5 or 6 greatest players that ever lived. He was awesome. I mean, even on his last legs, he was incredible. People remember Magic's "junior junior" in the 1987 Finals, but don't note that Cap had a huge game in the series clincher to beat the C's for the title. And, he led the Lakers to their first victory over the C's in the Finals, including the Greatest Win In Laker History, Game 6, 1985 Finals.

No Cap, no dynasty.

But Magic was even that much more essential.

I will always believe that Magic got more credit than he deserved. His personality and smile takes him way further than Kareem's brooding style EVER could.

Graycap23 said:

namepeace said:

Oh, I know that. But the main question was who was most important to the Lakers success in the 80's, and I say Magic for the reasons cited above.

There is no doubt that Cap was so good, so smooth, and so efficient for so long people forget he was one of the 5 or 6 greatest players that ever lived. He was awesome. I mean, even on his last legs, he was incredible. People remember Magic's "junior junior" in the 1987 Finals, but don't note that Cap had a huge game in the series clincher to beat the C's for the title. And, he led the Lakers to their first victory over the C's in the Finals, including the Greatest Win In Laker History, Game 6, 1985 Finals.

No Cap, no dynasty.

But Magic was even that much more essential.

I will always believe that Magic got more credit than he deserved. His personality and smile takes him way further than Kareem's brooding style EVER could.

Magic played with 2 top 50 players, a multiple DPOY in Coop, and a cast of talented players, from Norm Nixon to Jamaal Wilkes to B-Scott, AC Green, Mychal Thompson and Rambis. I'm sure him being the Face of Showtime robbed Cap of some of his shine, but remember, he deferred to Cap for a long time as the primary option and had to be prodded by Riles to take over. He filled the stat sheet with assists and rebounds, directing traffic, making sure everyone was fed, and leading a devastating fastbreak offense. The Laker Dynasty -- indeed, the Laker Brand as we know it today for style and substance -- would not exist without Magic.

It wasn't just his personality and smile (and his style benefitted his legacy AND the NBA for that matter) that burnished his rep. It was his passing and facilitation, doing things Cap couldn't do from his position (as GREAT as he was) that is why he deserves his high horse.

Graycap23 said:

namepeace said:

Oh, I know that. But the main question was who was most important to the Lakers success in the 80's, and I say Magic for the reasons cited above.

There is no doubt that Cap was so good, so smooth, and so efficient for so long people forget he was one of the 5 or 6 greatest players that ever lived. He was awesome. I mean, even on his last legs, he was incredible. People remember Magic's "junior junior" in the 1987 Finals, but don't note that Cap had a huge game in the series clincher to beat the C's for the title. And, he led the Lakers to their first victory over the C's in the Finals, including the Greatest Win In Laker History, Game 6, 1985 Finals.

No Cap, no dynasty.

But Magic was even that much more essential.

I will always believe that Magic got more credit than he deserved. His personality and smile takes him way further than Kareem's brooding style EVER could.

I don't know about that. Because whenever there's a discussion about who's the greatest center ever, there's always 3 or 4 dudes in the convo: Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem. When there's a discussion about who is the greatest pg ever, there's only one name that tops every knowledgeable hoop fan's list = Magic Johnson.

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:

I will always believe that Magic got more credit than he deserved. His personality and smile takes him way further than Kareem's brooding style EVER could.

Magic played with 2 top 50 players, a multiple DPOY in Coop, and a cast of talented players, from Norm Nixon to Jamaal Wilkes to B-Scott, AC Green, Mychal Thompson and Rambis. I'm sure him being the Face of Showtime robbed Cap of some of his shine, but remember, he deferred to Cap for a long time as the primary option and had to be prodded by Riles to take over. He filled the stat sheet with assists and rebounds, directing traffic, making sure everyone was fed, and leading a devastating fastbreak offense. The Laker Dynasty -- indeed, the Laker Brand as we know it today for style and substance -- would not exist without Magic.

It wasn't just his personality and smile (and his style benefitted his legacy AND the NBA for that matter) that burnished his rep. It was his passing and facilitation, doing things Cap couldn't do from his position (as GREAT as he was) that is why he deserves his high horse.

All of the things that u point are are correct.......but I still think it is unbalanced. No Kareem, no 5 Lakers titles. 2 or 3 tops..........

Isiah's Back with Knicks

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=5442858

You all know when Walsh is gone, that piece of shit will try to weasel his way into a higher position. He'll succeed too, because Dolan is a moron.

I HATE this move. Goodbye Knicks - after 40 years, I've had it. Wake me when Zeke or Dolan are gone.

uPtoWnNY said:

Isiah's Back with Knicks

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=5442858

You all know when Walsh is gone, that piece of shit will try to weasel his way into a higher position. He'll succeed too, because Dolan is a moron.

I HATE this move. Goodbye Knicks - after 40 years, I've had it. Wake me when Zeke or Dolan are gone.

U guys just can't get rid of Zeke. 2 bad.....