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PrintableMoonbeam said: LittleBLUECorvette said: No way, Dantley was great but King was just deadly. Both are underrated, by quite a bit. Bernard King should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame. Here's a stat comparison: http://www.basketball-ref...01&y2=1993 Dantley has an edge as a scorer and a decided edge in shooting efficiency, while King has an edge with rebounding and assists, but was prone to more turnovers and fouls. In turn, Dantley has a higher PER and Win Share total and rate (by quite a bit). In the playoffs, Bernard really stepped up his game, though, surpassing Dantley in PER and greatly improving his Win Share rate. King and Wilkins are the only one with All-NBA 1st team appearances. English is the leading scorer for the entire 80s. PRINCE: Always and Forever
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LittleBLUECorvette said: Moonbeam said: Both are underrated, by quite a bit. Bernard King should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame. Here's a stat comparison: http://www.basketball-ref...01&y2=1993 Dantley has an edge as a scorer and a decided edge in shooting efficiency, while King has an edge with rebounding and assists, but was prone to more turnovers and fouls. In turn, Dantley has a higher PER and Win Share total and rate (by quite a bit). In the playoffs, Bernard really stepped up his game, though, surpassing Dantley in PER and greatly improving his Win Share rate. King and Wilkins are the only one with All-NBA 1st team appearances. English is the leading scorer for the entire 80s. This is true. They're all really great players! Dantley is the only one who ever led the league in Win Shares, Win Shares/48 and PER, though. Feel free to join in the Prince Album Poll 2018! Let'a celebrate his legacy by counting down the most beloved Prince albums, as decided by you! | |
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Moonbeam said: LittleBLUECorvette said: King and Wilkins are the only one with All-NBA 1st team appearances. English is the leading scorer for the entire 80s. This is true. They're all really great players! Dantley is the only one who ever led the league in Win Shares, Win Shares/48 and PER, though. This is my SF's ranking. Small Forwards: 1. Larry Bird 2. Julius Erving 3. Elgin Baylor 4. John Havlicek 5. Rick Barry 6. Scottie Pippen 7. LeBron James 8. Dominique Wilkins 9. Billy Cunningham 10. Bernard King 11. Alex English 12. James Worthy 13. Adrian Dantley 14. Grant Hill 15. Paul Pierce PRINCE: Always and Forever
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LittleBLUECorvette said: Moonbeam said: This is true. They're all really great players! Dantley is the only one who ever led the league in Win Shares, Win Shares/48 and PER, though. This is my SF's ranking. Small Forwards: 1. Larry Bird 2. Julius Erving 3. Elgin Baylor 4. John Havlicek 5. Rick Barry 6. Scottie Pippen 7. LeBron James 8. Dominique Wilkins 9. Billy Cunningham 10. Bernard King 11. Alex English 12. James Worthy 13. Adrian Dantley 14. Grant Hill 15. Paul Pierce Here's my list. On reflection, I probably did sell Pippen a bit short earlier. He probably is a top-50 player. 1. Larry Bird 2. Julius Erving 3. Rick Barry 4. Elgin Baylor 5. LeBron James 6. Adrian Dantley 7. Dominique Wilkins 8. John Havlicek 9. Cliff Hagan 10. Paul Arizin 11. Billy Cunningham 12. Scottie Pippen 13. Bernard King 14. Alex English 15. James Worthy 16. Bobby Jones 17. Marques Johnson 18. Paul Pierce 19. Grant Hill 20. George Yardley 21. Chris Mullin 22. Bailey Howell 23. Mark Aguirre 24. Shawn Marion 25. Detlef Schrempf Feel free to join in the Prince Album Poll 2018! Let'a celebrate his legacy by counting down the most beloved Prince albums, as decided by you! | |
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LittleBLUECorvette said: Moonbeam said: This is true. They're all really great players! Dantley is the only one who ever led the league in Win Shares, Win Shares/48 and PER, though. This is my SF's ranking. Small Forwards: 1. Larry Bird 2. Julius Erving 3. Elgin Baylor 4. John Havlicek 5. Rick Barry 6. Scottie Pippen 7. LeBron James 8. Dominique Wilkins 9. Billy Cunningham 10. Bernard King 11. Alex English 12. James Worthy 13. Adrian Dantley 14. Grant Hill 15. Paul Pierce Pippen over 'Nique? 'Nique is one of the greatest scorers ever to play the game. Not a shoddy passer or rebounder either. I'm not saying Pippen's not up there, but as a Hawks fan I can't abide this list. 
Pippen over LeBron too, interesting! MY COUSIN WORKS IN A PHARMACY AND SHE SAID THEY ENEMA'D PRANCE INTO OBLIVION WITH FENTONILS!! | |
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p.s. what an awesome resource that site is!  MY COUSIN WORKS IN A PHARMACY AND SHE SAID THEY ENEMA'D PRANCE INTO OBLIVION WITH FENTONILS!! | |
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LittleBLUECorvette said: Moonbeam said: This is true. They're all really great players! Dantley is the only one who ever led the league in Win Shares, Win Shares/48 and PER, though. This is my SF's ranking. Small Forwards: 1. Larry Bird 2. Julius Erving 3. Elgin Baylor 4. John Havlicek 5. Rick Barry 6. Scottie Pippen 7. LeBron James 8. Dominique Wilkins 9. Billy Cunningham 10. Bernard King 11. Alex English 12. James Worthy 13. Adrian Dantley 14. Grant Hill 15. Paul Pierce Grant Hill????? 
He hasn't played long enough for a Hall of Fame selection in my book. | |
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If I were starting a team, I'd pick these 4:
Small Forwards: 1. Larry Bird 2. Julius Erving 5. Rick Barry 6. Scottie Pippen | |
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Moonbeam said: LittleBLUECorvette said: This is my SF's ranking. Small Forwards: 1. Larry Bird 2. Julius Erving 3. Elgin Baylor 4. John Havlicek 5. Rick Barry 6. Scottie Pippen 7. LeBron James 8. Dominique Wilkins 9. Billy Cunningham 10. Bernard King 11. Alex English 12. James Worthy 13. Adrian Dantley 14. Grant Hill 15. Paul Pierce Here's my list. On reflection, I probably did sell Pippen a bit short earlier. He probably is a top-50 player. 1. Larry Bird 2. Julius Erving 3. Rick Barry 4. Elgin Baylor 5. LeBron James 6. Adrian Dantley 7. Dominique Wilkins 8. John Havlicek 9. Cliff Hagan 10. Paul Arizin 11. Billy Cunningham 12. Scottie Pippen 13. Bernard King 14. Alex English 15. James Worthy 16. Bobby Jones 17. Marques Johnson 18. Paul Pierce 19. Grant Hill 20. George Yardley 21. Chris Mullin 22. Bailey Howell 23. Mark Aguirre 24. Shawn Marion 25. Detlef Schrempf Cliff Hagan is not a top 10 small forward all-time. He was barley a top 10 player when he played. PRINCE: Always and Forever
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Fauxie said: LittleBLUECorvette said: This is my SF's ranking. Small Forwards: 1. Larry Bird 2. Julius Erving 3. Elgin Baylor 4. John Havlicek 5. Rick Barry 6. Scottie Pippen 7. LeBron James 8. Dominique Wilkins 9. Billy Cunningham 10. Bernard King 11. Alex English 12. James Worthy 13. Adrian Dantley 14. Grant Hill 15. Paul Pierce Pippen over 'Nique? 'Nique is one of the greatest scorers ever to play the game. Not a shoddy passer or rebounder either. I'm not saying Pippen's not up there, but as a Hawks fan I can't abide this list.
Pippen over LeBron too, interesting! Nique was a better scorer than Pippen, Pippen was better at everything else. PRINCE: Always and Forever
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LittleBLUECorvette said: Moonbeam said: Here's my list. On reflection, I probably did sell Pippen a bit short earlier. He probably is a top-50 player. 1. Larry Bird 2. Julius Erving 3. Rick Barry 4. Elgin Baylor 5. LeBron James 6. Adrian Dantley 7. Dominique Wilkins 8. John Havlicek 9. Cliff Hagan 10. Paul Arizin 11. Billy Cunningham 12. Scottie Pippen 13. Bernard King 14. Alex English 15. James Worthy 16. Bobby Jones 17. Marques Johnson 18. Paul Pierce 19. Grant Hill 20. George Yardley 21. Chris Mullin 22. Bailey Howell 23. Mark Aguirre 24. Shawn Marion 25. Detlef Schrempf Cliff Hagan is not a top 10 small forward all-time. He was barley a top 10 player when he played. Well, he did earn All-NBA 2nd Team honors twice and was in the top 10 in PER 5 times (3 times in the top 5) and top 10 in Win Shares 4 times (top 5 twice). He also arguably played the best player for the St. Louis Hawks during their run to the title in 1958. [Edited 4/21/10 17:40pm] Feel free to join in the Prince Album Poll 2018! Let'a celebrate his legacy by counting down the most beloved Prince albums, as decided by you! | |
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xpertluva said: NDRU said: Averaging 16 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals is not hall of fame worthy? That's just a little less than Magic. He won 6 championships. With another player, yes, but he still won them.
Yeah, that's how I see it. I remember someone saying that if it wasn't for Jordan, Scottie would've been the primier player in the league at the time?? OTOH, if Scottie was NEVER traded to Chicago from Seattle, Michael would have NEVER have been blessed with a teammate that he could trust enough to pass the ball to. Remember, it takes a offensive one-two punch to get to a championship finals & win them. Even with winning his first championship ring WITHOUT Shaq, Kobe the "one" still needed a Paul Gasol to be the "two" in their one-two punch. Think about it.  | |
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Moonbeam said: LittleBLUECorvette said: Cliff Hagan is not a top 10 small forward all-time. He was barley a top 10 player when he played. Well, he did earn All-NBA 2nd Team honors twice and was in the top 10 in PER 5 times (3 times in the top 5) and top 10 in Win Shares 4 times (top 5 twice). He also arguably played the best player for the St. Louis Hawks during their run to the title in 1958. Bob Pettit is xtimes better than Hagan. You have Hagan over Arizin, Arizin was the premier SF in his time before Baylor, not Hagan. Paul led the league in scoring twice, was an all-star every season and all-nba 1st team 3 times. PRINCE: Always and Forever
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LittleBLUECorvette said: Fauxie said: Pippen over 'Nique? 'Nique is one of the greatest scorers ever to play the game. Not a shoddy passer or rebounder either. I'm not saying Pippen's not up there, but as a Hawks fan I can't abide this list.
Pippen over LeBron too, interesting! Nique was a better scorer than Pippen, Pippen was better at everything else. Overwhelmingly so a better scorer. Pippen was a far better defender. Rebounding about equal, though 'Nique probably shades that in truth because Willis was nabbing so many. Pippen was definitely a better passer, but then the Bulls rarely had a traditional point guard running the show, whereas the Hawks had Blaylock, one of the best at the position at the time. So no, he wasn't better at everything else. MY COUSIN WORKS IN A PHARMACY AND SHE SAID THEY ENEMA'D PRANCE INTO OBLIVION WITH FENTONILS!! | |
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RodeoSchro said: Timmy84 said: Well he won six championships with the Bulls, everything afterwards I hardly remembered but oh well, congrats lol
See, by that standard (championships) then Robert Horry is a LOCK for the Hall of Fame. He has SEVEN rings. But would anyone argue Horry is really a Hall of Famer? I would vote Robert Horry in the HOF because of those 7 rings, plus the fact that he was also a defensive specialist AND a 3-point specialist. I think Robert is THE only player in NBA history to win a championship for 3 different teams (Houston, LA Lakers, San Antonio) | |
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Timmy84 said: Well he won six championships with the Bulls, everything afterwards was an afterthought but oh well, congrats lol
[Edited 4/5/10 19:36pm] Winning 2 gold metal as a member of Team USA Basketball is NOT an afterthought. | |
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Fauxie said: LittleBLUECorvette said: Nique was a better scorer than Pippen, Pippen was better at everything else. Overwhelmingly so a better scorer. Pippen was a far better defender. Rebounding about equal, though 'Nique probably shades that in truth because Willis was nabbing so many. Pippen was definitely a better passer, but then the Bulls rarely had a traditional point guard running the show, whereas the Hawks had Blaylock, one of the best at the position at the time. So no, he wasn't better at everything else.Rodman and Ho Grant? Even without Mookie or Doc, Nique was not a great passer. He never averaged over 4 assist per game. PRINCE: Always and Forever
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TonyVanDam said: RodeoSchro said: See, by that standard (championships) then Robert Horry is a LOCK for the Hall of Fame. He has SEVEN rings. But would anyone argue Horry is really a Hall of Famer? I would vote Robert Horry in the HOF because of those 7 rings, plus the fact that he was also a defensive specialist AND a 3-point specialist. I think Robert is THE only player in NBA history to win a championship for 3 different teams (Houston, LA Lakers, San Antonio) Horry has no place in the Hall of Fame. If he was at least a 3rd option, he could be up for discussion. PRINCE: Always and Forever
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Graycap23 said: RodeoSchro said: ...I'm a space shuttle pilot.
What a total crock. Putting a quitter in the Hall of Fame. Disgraceful. Really. Scottie is easily one of the BEST defensive players of all time. He changed the point foward position in the NBA and all yea...won 6 titles. .....and 2 gold metals.  | |
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LittleBLUECorvette said: Moonbeam said: Well, he did earn All-NBA 2nd Team honors twice and was in the top 10 in PER 5 times (3 times in the top 5) and top 10 in Win Shares 4 times (top 5 twice). He also arguably played the best player for the St. Louis Hawks during their run to the title in 1958. Bob Pettit is xtimes better than Hagan. You have Hagan over Arizin, Arizin was the premier SF in his time before Baylor, not Hagan. Paul led the league in scoring twice, was an all-star every season and all-nba 1st team 3 times. Oh, Pettit is definitely better than Hagan, but Hagan was absolutely dominant in those 1958 playoffs. Feel free to join in the Prince Album Poll 2018! Let'a celebrate his legacy by counting down the most beloved Prince albums, as decided by you! | |
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LittleBLUECorvette said: TonyVanDam said: I would vote Robert Horry in the HOF because of those 7 rings, plus the fact that he was also a defensive specialist AND a 3-point specialist. I think Robert is THE only player in NBA history to win a championship for 3 different teams (Houston, LA Lakers, San Antonio) Horry has no place in the Hall of Fame. If he was at least a 3rd option, he could be up for discussion. Agree with this. Feel free to join in the Prince Album Poll 2018! Let'a celebrate his legacy by counting down the most beloved Prince albums, as decided by you! | |
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LittleBLUECorvette said: Moonbeam said: I said he's top 100, but not top 50, which means I'd need to come up with 50 better than Pippen. 
Anyway, here are 60 that I think are better than Pippen: Adrian Dantley Alex English Artis Gilmore Bernard King Bill Russell Bill Walton Bob Cousy Bob Lanier Bob McAdoo Bob Pettit Charles Barkley Chris Mullin Cliff Hagan Clyde Drexler Clyde Lovellette Connie Hawkins David Robinson Dirk Nowitzki Dolph Schayes Dominique Wilkins Dwyane Wade Elgin Baylor Elvin Hayes Gary Payton George Gervin George Mikan George Yardley Hakeem Olajuwon Isiah Thomas Jerry West John Havlicek John Stockton Julius Erving Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Karl Malone Kevin Garnett Kevin McHale Kobe Bryant Larry Bird LeBron James Magic Johnson Michael Jordan Moses Malone Neil Johnston Oscar Robertson Patrick Ewing Paul Arizin Pete Maravich Rick Barry Robert Parish Shaquille O'Neal Sidney Moncrief Spencer Haywood Steve Nash Tim Duncan Tiny Archibald Walt Bellamy Walt Frazier Willis Reed Wilt Chamberlain All the guys in bold, come on man. Cliff Hagan? Walt Bellamy? Neil Johnston? Adrian Dantley? All those guys are great players, but, you're telling me Walt Bellamy is better than Scottie Pippen??? In fairness, Kevin McHale is THE best power forward in NBA history right after Tim Duncan & Karl Malone. Kevin won 3 rings with Larry Bird. Just saying. | |
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TonyVanDam said: LittleBLUECorvette said: All the guys in bold, come on man. Cliff Hagan? Walt Bellamy? Neil Johnston? Adrian Dantley? All those guys are great players, but, you're telling me Walt Bellamy is better than Scottie Pippen??? In fairness, Kevin McHale is THE best power forward in NBA history right after Tim Duncan & Karl Malone. Kevin won 3 rings with Larry Bird. Just saying. Not even top 5. PRINCE: Always and Forever
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LittleBLUECorvette said: TonyVanDam said: In fairness, Kevin McHale is THE best power forward in NBA history right after Tim Duncan & Karl Malone. Kevin won 3 rings with Larry Bird. Just saying. Not even top 5. It's time for an after school special..... http://www.hoophall.com/h...n-e-mchale At 6-foot-10 and 225 pounds, Kevin McHale's nearly unstoppable array of low post moves -- some of which he never did twice in the same game -- revolutionized pivot play. With the Boston Celtics, he teamed with Hall of Famers Larry Bird and Robert Parish to form one of the greatest frontlines in basketball history. Although known for his happy-go-lucky attitude off the court, at game time his playing was precise. Celebrated for his high-percentage shooting, McHale was the first player in NBA history to shoot 60 percent from the field and 80 percent from the foul line in the same season. Defensively, McHale's long arms made him impassable and earned him All-Defensive First-Team honors three times. NBA championships with Boston Celtics, 1981, 1984, 1986 NBA All-Star, 1984, 1986-91 NBA Sixth Man Award, 1984, 1985 NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team, 1996 In other words, Kevin was a beast back in the 1980's.  | |
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TonyVanDam said: LittleBLUECorvette said: Not even top 5. It's time for an after school special..... http://www.hoophall.com/h...n-e-mchale At 6-foot-10 and 225 pounds, Kevin McHale's nearly unstoppable array of low post moves -- some of which he never did twice in the same game -- revolutionized pivot play. With the Boston Celtics, he teamed with Hall of Famers Larry Bird and Robert Parish to form one of the greatest frontlines in basketball history. Although known for his happy-go-lucky attitude off the court, at game time his playing was precise. Celebrated for his high-percentage shooting, McHale was the first player in NBA history to shoot 60 percent from the field and 80 percent from the foul line in the same season. Defensively, McHale's long arms made him impassable and earned him All-Defensive First-Team honors three times. NBA championships with Boston Celtics, 1981, 1984, 1986 NBA All-Star, 1984, 1986-91 NBA Sixth Man Award, 1984, 1985 NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team, 1996 In other words, Kevin was a beast back in the 1980's. I never said he wasn't great just not number 3. Duncan Pettit Barkley Malone Garnett him or Hayes fight for that sixth spot. PRINCE: Always and Forever
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LittleBLUECorvette said: TonyVanDam said: It's time for an after school special..... http://www.hoophall.com/h...n-e-mchale At 6-foot-10 and 225 pounds, Kevin McHale's nearly unstoppable array of low post moves -- some of which he never did twice in the same game -- revolutionized pivot play. With the Boston Celtics, he teamed with Hall of Famers Larry Bird and Robert Parish to form one of the greatest frontlines in basketball history. Although known for his happy-go-lucky attitude off the court, at game time his playing was precise. Celebrated for his high-percentage shooting, McHale was the first player in NBA history to shoot 60 percent from the field and 80 percent from the foul line in the same season. Defensively, McHale's long arms made him impassable and earned him All-Defensive First-Team honors three times. NBA championships with Boston Celtics, 1981, 1984, 1986 NBA All-Star, 1984, 1986-91 NBA Sixth Man Award, 1984, 1985 NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team, 1996 In other words, Kevin was a beast back in the 1980's. I never said he wasn't great just not number 3. Duncan Pettit Barkley Malone Garnett him or Hayes fight for that sixth spot.  
Do you really think Kevin Garnett is a better player right now than Kevin McHale ever was in the prime of his career? Defensively, KG is better. Offensively? KH would have too many moves he would use to hurt KG and you know it! [Edited 4/21/10 22:22pm] | |
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TonyVanDam said: LittleBLUECorvette said: I never said he wasn't great just not number 3. Duncan Pettit Barkley Malone Garnett him or Hayes fight for that sixth spot.
Do you really think Kevin Garnett is a better player right now than Kevin McHale ever was in the prime of his career? Defensively, KG is better. Offensively? KH would have too many moves he would use to hurt KG and you know it!
Kev didn't really have no comp at the PF spot in the 80s. All the greats 80s forwards were SF. Barkley and Malone came later in the decade. PRINCE: Always and Forever
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