RodeoSchro said:

LMAO @ this Rodeo, MJ never got shut down in his prime by anybody. Against agressive defenders like Mad Max he would usually play his best ball.People always say the "The Bad Boys" shut MJ down but he would still get his 30 plus more albeit about half would come from free throws.

No doubt Pippen is a HOF player, he's one of the best to ever play his position.

Abdul said:

Well then we must have shut down that incredible role-player Scottie Pippen more often than not, because we owned the Bulls when MJ played for them.

RodeoSchro said:

Maybe, the shame of it is we never got to see those two teams square off in the finlas when it really counted, MJ retiring in 93 opened the door for the Rockets to be champs. Even though the Suns choked back-to-back years against those Rockets, blowing 3-1 leads in both 94 &95.
[Edited 4/17/10 22:02pm]

Well, if Joe Dumars can get in as the sidekick for 2 championships, Scottie can get in as the sidekick for 6. I agree that Pippen is a bit overrated, but he was very skilled on both ends of the court. I'd put him as a top 100 player all-time, but not a top-50 player.

Moonbeam said:

LOL at just top 100.

Name 99 players better than Pippen???

uPtoWnNY said:

Dennis Johnson got in, too!

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I said he's top 100, but not top 50, which means I'd need to come up with 50 better than Pippen.

Anyway, here are 60 that I think are better than Pippen:

Adrian Dantley
Alex English
Artis Gilmore
Bernard King
Bill Russell
Bill Walton
Bob Cousy
Bob Lanier
Bob McAdoo
Bob Pettit
Charles Barkley
Chris Mullin
Cliff Hagan
Clyde Drexler
Clyde Lovellette
Connie Hawkins
David Robinson
Dirk Nowitzki
Dolph Schayes
Dominique Wilkins
Dwyane Wade
Elgin Baylor
Elvin Hayes
Gary Payton
George Gervin
George Mikan
George Yardley
Hakeem Olajuwon
Isiah Thomas
Jerry West
John Havlicek
John Stockton
Julius Erving
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Kevin McHale
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Moses Malone
Neil Johnston
Oscar Robertson
Patrick Ewing
Paul Arizin
Pete Maravich
Rick Barry
Robert Parish
Shaquille O'Neal
Sidney Moncrief
Spencer Haywood
Steve Nash
Tim Duncan
Tiny Archibald
Walt Bellamy
Walt Frazier
Willis Reed
Wilt Chamberlain
[Edited 4/17/10 22:31pm]

Moonbeam said:

All the guys in bold, come on man. Cliff Hagan? Walt Bellamy? Neil Johnston? Adrian Dantley?

All those guys are great players, but, you're telling me Walt Bellamy is better than Scottie Pippen???

Chris Mullin is another. Great player. He played in the exact same era as Pippen and the exact same position (Small Forward.) I don't recall anyone ever picking Mullin over Pippen (other than the first few seasons as Mullin was drafted in 85 and Pippen in 87.)

Connie Hawkins would be even greater had he came into the league when he was supposed to in the early 60s. You have to take into account that he was already in his prime wen he entered the league and was on his was down as he retired 7 years later. Not his fault but, but Pippen win by default against the great "Hawk".

Clyde Lovellette, that's a laugh right there. Can you even explain why he;s better than Pippen.

Dolph Schayes better than Scottie Pippen???

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Yes!

Moonbeam said:

Explanation please (if you can think of one)!!

Moonbeam said:

Those are the ONLY players on this list better than Scottie in my book.

Graycap23 said:

Much better but still a few that could be argued.

Engligh, King, McAdoo, McHale can all be argued and can go either way.

Haywood, Maravich, Parish and Bellamy, it's Pippen all the way.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I agree with u especially from a defensive point of view.

Graycap23 said:

I haven't heard from Moonbeam yet?,

LittleBLUECorvette said:

.....and U won't.

Graycap23 said:

I think traditional evaluations of players tend to overrate team performance. I'm not saying that it's not important, but I feel that a lot of great players are underrated due to their teammates!

As for Walt Bellamy vs. Scottie Pippen, you're probably right. I think Bellamy is quite underrated, and from a statistical point of view, Bellamy was slightly better than Pippen (8 seasons being top 10 in Win Shares while Pippen had 5 such seasons, and 6 seasons in the top 10 in PER compared to 2 for Pippen). That said, Bellamy's statistical advantage probably isn't enough to overcome Pippen's postseason success.

Don't get me wrong- Scottie Pippen is a legitimate Hall of Famer and a great player. I just feel that his pairing with other greats was largely responsible for his postseason success, and that I don't think a team with Pippen as the top player would have had nearly the amount of success (although such teams probably could still win a championship or two).

As for the other players, a similar argument can be made. One in particular that is underrated is Adrian Dantley. The dude was an absolute freak on the offensive end. Pippen definitely had the defensive edge, but Adrian's offensive prowess was one of the most unique and impresive in the history of the league.

The guy is one of 4 players all-time to average over 30 points a game in 4 consecutive seasons.

Of players who scored at least 30 per game, Adrian Dantley has the top 3 seasons in terms of the least amount of field goals attempted per game, and 4 of the top 5.

He did this with one leg a few inches shorter than the other, and playing in the post at 6'5" against players several inches taller than him.

He did all of this with a traditionally poor set of teammates, but I feel that had Detroit not traded him in February 1989, he would have won a title with them and his reputation would be much greater than it is.

Moonbeam said:

Bellamy's teams were known to be terrible (because he played on them or because of his teammates?) When he got traded from New York to Detriot, New York won the title the next season. Bellamy is one of the more overrated players to me. He's still a HOF'er but clearly overrated. It's like he declined every year, His rookie season was his best statical season, 31 and 19.


Pippen (the season MJ played baseball) led the Bulls to 55 wins and, that's 2 less than a year before with MJ. MJ's replacement, Pete Myers.

Graycap23 said:

You know better than that.

Moonbeam said:

Dantley is a great but he's not up their in the talks with Pippen. And he's the worse of the high scoring SF's from the 80's (Wilkins, King and English but better than Aguirre.)

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I think Dantley is better than Bernard King and Alex English, and close to Dominique.

Moonbeam said:

He is bacccckk.

Moonbeam said:

No way, Dantley was great but King was just deadly.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Both are underrated, by quite a bit. Bernard King should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame.

Here's a stat comparison:

http://www.basketball-ref...01&y2=1993

Dantley has an edge as a scorer and a decided edge in shooting efficiency, while King has an edge with rebounding and assists, but was prone to more turnovers and fouls. In turn, Dantley has a higher PER and Win Share total and rate (by quite a bit).

In the playoffs, Bernard really stepped up his game, though, surpassing Dantley in PER and greatly improving his Win Share rate.

In fact, here's a comparison of Dantley, King, English and Dominique. It's eerie how they resemble each other!

http://www.basketball-ref...01&y4=1993

Again, Dantley jumps out as the best pure scorer with an Offensive Rating of 119 easily outpacing the others. He also has the edge in Win Share rate. What a great era for small forwards!