Dewrede said:

Says the king of the appalling post.

PurpleJedi said:

my skin is pretty thick thanx. I've been in many a slugfest here on the org...so thanx for the advice but I'm all set.

hey I agree with all that you said....in this post. but it does NOT change what you said in your last. You are entitled to think what you want to think about long haired, double wide trailer types, it's your opinion not mine, but I'm also allowed to comment on it.
we've already estblished that rules are good and need to be followed and that there are plenty of rules that kids do follow in school. This rule however is completely ridiculous.

cborgman said:

They should all be wearing a Snuggie Uniforms.

JustErin said:

I didn't see any mention of it in the dress code. Maybe they handle that on a case by case basis.

SCNDLS said:

That would be interesting to know....

I think their response to that kind of case would be very telling.

Vendetta1 said:

Actually, I think bucking against authority once in a while is an admirable trait for a child to learn.

But this isn't the right fight. Let the school district have their rule. I just have one question: Are girls in this school district allowed long hair? If so, why NOT boys?

Genesia said:

Short hair on boys but whatever goes for girls constitutes a "reasonable standard" in a publicly funded school?

What do you smoke for breakfast? I ask because I'd like to avoid it.

TD3 said:

Bullshit.


It astounds me that in 2010 anyone still believes any of this. The very notion that productivity, workplace efficiency, or coworker cohesion is in any way affected by a fucking haircut is patently insane. You've all bought into this notion that the right trousers or tie actually means something, and none of you seem able to comprehend what a ridiculous idea that is even in theory, let alone practice.

I have a job interview tomorrow in a professional setting. I will be dressing as conservatively as my wardrobe allows because I do realize how many people there are out there, especially employers, who've bought into this nonsense. But honestly, I've got enough qualifications to drown in, and a correct and professional manner suited to the position. But if I wear the wrong nail polish, I may end up being passed over for somebody still in high school who doesn't even know how to answer a phone that's not cellular.

I'll play the game so I can pay my bills, but nothing will convince me it's got any more reasonable basis for doing than the war in Iraq.

meow85 said:

i'm all for it if someone wants to buck the status quo. I've been in the same business for almost 20 years but because I do not have a degree, I will not get certain jobs even though I have tons of experience.

Until the status quo is bucked, rules have to be followed.

meow85 said:

The US is not Canada...things really are different there.

I'm not saying that all jobs are a-ok with anything goes, but it's just not the same here.

SCNDLS said:

Not quite.

Any so-called studies into the benefits of uniforming students have either been shoddily conducted or disproven. The supposed benefit of masking class doesn't and can't work when you factor in accessories, shoes, brand name backpacks, cars, cell phones, Blackberries, and other toys you'd find in any school. Kids aren't unaware of brands and costs, especially not teenagers. Ditto displays of gang allegiance. Bring in uniforms, and gang members will think of other ways to display themselves.

And the rise in grades? Considering the multitude of factors that affect the grades of individual students and the entire student body, it's trite and simplistic to correlate without considering everything.


Uniforms can run into several hundred dollars for a set depending on the school district, so they often don't save parents any money either.

meow85 said:

The pros of uniforms far outweigh the cons and parents spend a lot less on them new school clothes every year. So please feel free to post some of the studies that disprove the benefits of uniforms.

SOME OF THE BENEFITS OF SCHOOL UNIFORMS

In response to growing levels of violence in our schools, many parents, teachers and school officials have come to see school uniforms as one positive and creative way to reduce discipline problems and increase school safety.

Making Students Safer
No more "gang colors". No reason to rob a kid to get his or her expensive clothes. Plus people who don't belong are easy to spot on school grounds. Do uniforms make kids safer? 75% of schools with uniforms say "Yes".

Influencing Classroom Discipline
Almost 80% of schools with uniforms say classroom discipline has improved. Uniforms promote good behavior and provide an improved environment for learning.

Curtailing Peer Pressure
Uniforms usually reduce the competition among students to wear certain (and nearly always expensive) brands of clothing. Over 75% of schools in uniform noted a reduction in peer pressure among their students after adopting a uniform policy.

Increasing Parental Participation
The added responsibility of the parents making sure that their children wear their uniforms to school could lead to a stronger working relationship between school and home.

Improving the Learning Environment
Teachers surveyed say that uniforms promote a "down to business" approach. Kid's view uniforms as work clothes and take school more seriously. 52% of principals surveyed said that uniforms had a positive effect on student achievement.

Bolstering Self Confidence
Many studies have shown that kids with high self-esteem perform better in school. By eliminating a reason to feel self-conscious, uniforms can help improve children's self-confidence and may lead to greater class participation.

Facts provided by the National Association of Elementary School Principals (NAESP) and an NPD Group, Inc. survey.
[Edited 1/13/10 13:27pm]

SCNDLS said:

Who cares?

The point is, it's a stupid rule.

Shorty said:

In YOUR opinion, of course.

Vendetta1 said:

Someone's got to do it.

I'm not sure I'm brave enough to risk losing a job over it, or risk not being hired for a job I need, but still.

It doesn't make sense to me that so much focus is put by employers on a "professional appearance" when there isn't even an agreed on definition for what constitutes professional.
It doesn't make sense to me that individuals looking for jobs are told to change -sometimes drastically -their own appearance because they're told that The Clothes Don't Make the Man, when the very reason they have to dress a certain way is because to the eyes of their employer clothes do make the man.
It doesn't make sense to me that many workplaces and schools will ban "unnatural" hair colours like green or pink, but allow bottle blondes and brunettes. If it came out of a package, it's unnatural by definition.
It doesn't make sense to me that so many places -like this school district -apply different rules to males and females. Why can girls have long hair if this boy can't?


It's all completely arbitrary. I'd think a workplace should be more concerned with ensuring their staff excel at their positions?

SCNDLS said:

The fact that no study has allowed for outside factors, but assumes a strict causation effect of enforced uniforms to higher grades is proof enough. Were it a scientific study, no legitimate journal would publish it.

Uniforms do not hide class or gang affiliation. If you think they do, you've never been anywhere near a school that does have uniforms. Anyone could pick out in a crowd of students whose families do and don't have money.

We might think dress codes and such are ridiculous concepts or even break them down to some master plan to oppress expressive people, but like it or not there actually are purposes served by rules.
I keep mentioning Ron being in education, but it really opened my eyes over the years (me as the artsy fartsy artiste) to just how fuckin ridiculously far folk will try to take "expression". It doesn't end at wearing some funky clothes (and on the flipside of suits and slacks being meaningless, if we really need our clothes to tell the world who we are then we're not nearly creative enough individuals). It spills into folk not maintaining anything, right down to hygiene. Ron has had to send students home for some outrageous shit folk think they have the right to do in a professional or educational setting. Everything from folk showing to massage class dressed like video vixen ho's to crazy piercings (yes, piercings can hinder the learning process in massage therapy as some techniques cannot be properly applied), to folk that just won't bathe and could care less that the others have to smell them.

Creativity and expression is not license to selfishness and self absorbed fuckery.
[Edited 1/13/10 14:05pm]

meow85 said:

What's that for...Ralph Lauren uniforms???

Normal uniforms run at or about the same as standard clothing. I currently spend hundreds of dollars at JCPenney on my kids's no-brand clothing. If I subscribed to the "brand-mentality" and if my kids caved in to the "norm" or wanted to be "cool", I'd be spending twice as much.

I would definitely save money buying uniforms. http://www.schooluniforms...rms-1.html

meow85 said:

How?

Just out of curiosity, if this four-year-old boy wanted to grow his hair long but his parents wanted to cut it, whose side would you support?

meow85 said:

Did you not say these studies have been disproven? If so, post something from a reputable source that says just that.

PurpleJedi said:

Many parents spend almost $1000 or more on school clothes each year per kid. So I don't know what she's talking about.

From Long Beach ISD:

http://www.lbusd.k12.ca.u...icle_9.cfm

Affordable school uniforms can reduce clothing costs substantially. The average clothing cost per child in schools with a student uniform is markedly less than that in schools without uniforms. The typical uniforms cost $65-75 per year for a set of three -- far less than some students spend for one item of designer clothing Basic uniforms may be obtained at local thrift stores, department stores or uniform suppliers.
[Edited 1/13/10 14:00pm]

http://www.christianschoo...iforms.htm

Why School Uniforms?

While the debate over school uniforms has been ongoing for decades, it took on a much higher profile in the nation's consciousness in 1996. It was in January of that year when, during his State of the Union address, then-President Bill Clinton implied that uniforms might help improve safety in schools by minimizing student rivalries.

The percentage of both private and public schools requiring school uniforms has been on the increase ever since. The NPD Group, a leading provider of consumer and retail information, reported in a study released in 2006 that school uniforms now account for $835 million in sales annually, approximately 5% of the total apparel market for kids ages 5 to 14. According to the same study, the rate of mandated school uniform policies rose 3% between 2000 and 2006.

Most school administrators, teachers, and parents are familiar with all the arguments both for and against adopting a school uniform program.

Proponents argue that requiring school uniforms helps parents and students take the guesswork out of back-to-school shopping and getting dressed each morning. Overall, it creates a safer school environment and encourages a sense of pride and unity in one's school. Uniforms make it easier to identify anyone on campus who is not from that school. In addition, uniforms minimize socioeconomic differences among students and, thereby, as President Clinton implied, minimize student rivalries. And, especially in today's difficult economy, proponents also like to argue that families whose children are required to wear a school uniform spend less on school-related clothing annually than those who are not.

Opponents of school uniforms tend to argue that requiring school uniforms limits the students' sense of individuality and creativity.

Given the emotions, dollars, time, and effort involved in this debate, where is the best place for school administrators to begin the decision-making process?

Luckily, researchers and schools have begun collecting data over the last 15 years pertaining to this very topic. This empirical data pertains not just to school experience (safety, attendance, etc.) but also to test results. Because, after all, if the students' school environment improves, it follows that their ability to concentrate and learn should improve, as well.

It is important that we point out two important caveats to the following studies. First, the majority of studies to date have been conducted in a public school setting. It seems reasonable to assume that similar results would be found within a private school setting. And, second, it is virtually impossible for any study to control all of the variables that go into the success/failure, satisfaction/dissatisfaction, behavior, etc. of the students involved in these studies, especially as it pertains to school uniforms.

A More Positive School Environment
In 1994, the Long Beach public schools implemented a district-wide uniform policy for the almost 60,000 students in its kindergarten through eighth grade classes. Within two years of adopting the new policy, the district reported a staggering 71% decrease in overall school crime in those grades vs. a 28% increase in school violence at its high schools where no school uniform policy had been implemented. In addition, the district has enjoyed improved attendance at many of the schools in its district since adopting its uniform policy.

While the school uniform policy alone may not be responsible for the improvements, district administrators believe it played a significant role. The positive results in two other high-profile studies support this belief. In the fall of 1998, John Adams and Truman middle schools in the Albuquerque, New Mexico, school district adopted a school uniform policy of tucked-in polo shirts and khaki pants or skirts. In a study of the results published by Deborah L. Elder in 1999, she found that during the first semester the policy was in place, both schools experienced noticeable improvement in student behavior, with the total discipline referrals at the two schools falling just over 50%.

In a second study conducted by Richard K. Murray, students in two Charleston (South Carolina) County middle schools were surveyed in spring 1996 using National Association of Secondary School Principal's Comprehensive Assessment of School Environments (CASE) School Climate Survey. One school had adopted a school uniform policy, the other had not. Students in the uniform school rated climate as more positive in 9 out of 10 subcategories.

Improved Test Scores
While the findings in Long Beach, Albuquerque, and Charleston seem to confirm that school uniforms can have a positive impact on student behavior and school environment, what about the second half of the argument? Does a more positive school environment translate into improved test scores and student achievement?

In a study published earlier this year, the University of Houston's Elisabetta Gentile and Scott Imberman looked at performance within an unnamed urban school district that had implemented a school uniform policy over time. The researchers found little impact on performance within the younger grades, but found that uniforms did appear to have a moderately positive impact on students in the middle school grades and higher. In particular, students who were required to wear uniforms showed improvements on language exams and attendance rates, especially among female students.

Save Families Money
In 1999, the NPD conducted a school uniform consumer study. The study found that those families whose children attended schools that required school uniforms spent an average of $85 less on children's clothes per year than those families who did not. Although it is difficult to find more recent data on average school uniform expenditures, we can back into a comparison based on some available data. The National Retail Federation reported that the average American family with school-age children spent $235 in 2008 on back-to-school clothing. Depending on the quality, durability, and manufacturer, a school uniform can cost anywhere from $40 to $75. A well-made school uniform will be durable and should retain its color, shape, and size, enabling parents to use it for more than one child and ideally for multiple school years. My experience indicates that parents buying uniforms spend 20-30% less, on average, than parents buying apparel for non-uniform schools.

Even if back-to-school spending is similar between uniform and non-uniform households, it seems reasonable to assume that the average annual spending for school-related clothing should be less for the school uniform family because they should not have to make additional trips to the mall because of damaged clothing or changing trends.
[Edited 1/13/10 13:54pm]

http://www.newjerseynewsr...m-policies

The average cost of back-to-school shopping can set a family back about $600 per child, according to Arking. The average cost of a year's worth of school uniforms is about $120.

This is pleasing to parents, especially, Arking said. About 80 percent of parents are in favor of school uniforms, he said.

Generally, the other 20 percent of parents are initially apprehensive about the potential cost of uniforms and the idea that students can not express their individuality in a uniform. These concerns usually dissipate once they realize the price of the uniforms is actually cheaper than other clothes, he said.

Last month, a forum on school uniforms in Clifton uncovered a few misgivings about creating a uniform policy in that school district. At the hearing, which included about 50 people, there were far more people against a uniform policy than in favor.

But Maria Nuccetelli, assistant superintendent of the school district, said that a parents' survey in the district found that 76 percent of about 6,000 respondents approved implementing a school uniform policy.

SCNDLS said:

There that is again. Shouldn't we learn to express ourselves in ways other than what we wear?? I would think this beneficial and right down fundamental. Sure many of us love clothes and creating our own looks, but this should be something that comes from knowing how to express our individuality in other ways first. It really is a sad statement IMO that we should claim not being able to express ourselves except through clothing. Or that it should rank so high a necessity in expressing who we are.

johnart said:

I agree completely. How does your clothing impede your ability to express yourself? On the flip, a student's clothing or appearance can negatively impact the learning environmnet for others.

I really wish all schools would institute unifomrs. So many parents spoil and indulge their kids with material things that stripping away all of that surface shit could possibly reduce this annoying sense of entitlement I see in a lot of kids today.

SCNDLS said:

This, as well, is an actual "thing"/phenomenon occurring. Educational institutions have actually had to find ways to deal with this. Different approaches and such. One being, that since it's no longer good enough for many students that there are rules so the institution has to approach by way of getting the student to "buy" into it. As if complying by the rules is something the student is choosing to do for the institution.

That is just plain bullshit. I'm sorry.

johnart said:

My best friend is a high school teacher and the stories he tells me about dealing with these spoiled/privileged kids then not getting any support from the parents who think the sun shines outta their babies asses are RIDICULOUS! They don't think they have to do their assignments or abide by the rules. He has to cajole them into doing their work then if he fails them he has to hear shit from the principal who is concerned about their rating.

So many of his students are now failing in college and whining about how the professors don't stay after them to do their work or offer extra help. Uh, that's cuz you're an adult now junior.

johnart said:

what little red line?

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said: