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PrintableMuthaFunka said: The blame for the Laker Dynasty break up falls on the shoulders of 4 men. 4 EGOMANIACAL men:
Shaq Kobe Phil Buss They ALL had a role in the break up of that dynasty. That's too many egos that have to get along with each other. ...and Kobe got too much of the hate, IMO. | |
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uPtoWnNY said: MuthaFunka said: The blame for the Laker Dynasty break up falls on the shoulders of 4 men. 4 EGOMANIACAL men:
Shaq Kobe Phil Buss They ALL had a role in the break up of that dynasty. That's too many egos that have to get along with each other. ...and Kobe got too much of the hate, IMO. Way too much. nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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MuthaFunka said: uPtoWnNY said: ...and Kobe got too much of the hate, IMO. Way too much. He got too much, I agree. But he deserved a lot. Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016
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namepeace said: MuthaFunka said: Way too much. He got too much, I agree. But he deserved a lot. I had a front row seat 4 this mess that was the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. They are all 2 blame but being the finance man that I am, let me assign a Percentage%: Kobe: 45% 4 not repsecting that the team was Shaq's Shaq: 25% 4 not realizing that Kobe was becoming the "new" leader of the team Phil: 15% 4 not taking stepping up and fixing the situation. He fed it instead. Buss: 15% 4 not really wanting 2 pay Shaq and breaking up a title contender. | |
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MuthaFunka said: Well, it still can be disputed that MJ is/isn't the GOAT, solely based on the fact that there are 5 positions on a team and their responsibilities differ from position to position. Magic Johnson and MJ can both be argued as GOAT, as well as Kareem and Wilt. But that's neither here nor there
 ...As former President of the Magic Is GOAT Campaign, I agree. And yes, an argument can be made for the Wilts, Kareems, Birds, Wests, Baylors, Russells, et cetera. But MJ's game was flawless. None of the cats you mentioned, not even my Favorite Athlete of All Time, the Great Magic Johnson, can say that (although his outside shooting and FT shooting developed greatly over time). Cap and Logo would rival MJ as premier players on both ends of the floor, and of those 2 Laker Legends, only Cap has as many titles as MJ. Could Russell make the argument on the basis of titles? Sure, but can we really say he was dominant on both ends of the floor, especially playing with legends like Cousy and Havilcek? When it's all said and done, I still give the edge to MJ. "Undisputed GOAT" is hyperbole per se, I know. But let's say that MJ makes the most compelling argument of any of the folks we've listed. The blame for the Laker Dynasty break up falls on the shoulders of 4 men. 4 EGOMANIACAL men:
Shaq -- costing the Lakers a fourpeat, inconsistent conditioning, hot-and-cold locker room presence, feud with Kobe, failing to see the big pic. Kobe -- rebelling against the offense running through Shaq, showing out in games to prove points, leveraging free agency to induce FO to trade Shaq and ax Phil, running off Karl Malone, overall immaturity Phil -- failing to mediate Shaq-Kobe adequately, using tactics that worked with Bulls players but not with Lakers players, pushing for a Kobe trade midseason one year, etc. Buss -- NOT PAYING OR GIVING OWNERSHIP TO JERRY WEST, WHO WAS THE ONLY PERSON IN THE FRANCHISE WHO COULD KEEP KOBE AND SHAQ ON THE SAME PAGE, taking "pay me!" too personally, maybe, ceding control of the franchise over to his son, arguably misleading Kobe into thinking the FO was going to build a winner while dragging his feet, signing off on a trade of Caron Butler without talking to Kobe, letting his son run the franchise, firing Phil. They ALL had a role in the break up of that dynasty. That's too many egos that have to get along with each other. My take on each in bold. [Edited 2/6/09 11:20am] Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016
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Graycap23 said: namepeace said: He got too much, I agree. But he deserved a lot. I had a front row seat 4 this mess that was the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. They are all 2 blame but being the finance man that I am, let me assign a Percentage%: Kobe: 45% 4 not repsecting that the team was Shaq's Shaq: 25% 4 not realizing that Kobe was becoming the "new" leader of the team Phil: 15% 4 not taking stepping up and fixing the situation. He fed it instead. Buss: 15% 4 not really wanting 2 pay Shaq and breaking up a title contender. I'd assess it as 30% each for Kobe and Shaq. 20% for Phil (Because he'd take little side-shots at Kobe, like when he said Kobe purposely threw a high school game just so he could try and win the game at the end of the game). Buss 20% - For wanting a more wide-open offense instead of the methodical triangle. nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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namepeace said: MuthaFunka said: Well, it still can be disputed that MJ is/isn't the GOAT, solely based on the fact that there are 5 positions on a team and their responsibilities differ from position to position. Magic Johnson and MJ can both be argued as GOAT, as well as Kareem and Wilt. But that's neither here nor there
...As former President of the Magic Is GOAT Campaign, I agree. And yes, an argument can be made for the Wilts, Kareems, Birds, Wests, Baylors, Russells, et cetera. But MJ's game was flawless. None of the cats you mentioned, not even my Favorite Athlete of All Time, the Great Magic Johnson, can say that (although his outside shooting and FT shooting developed greatly over time). Cap and Logo would rival MJ as premier players on both ends of the floor, and of those 2 Laker Legends, only Cap has as many titles as MJ. Could Russell make the argument on the basis of titles? Sure, but can we really say he was dominant on both ends of the floor, especially playing with legends like Cousy and Havilcek? When it's all said and done, I still give the edge to MJ. "Undisputed GOAT" is hyperbole per se, I know. But let's say that MJ makes the most compelling argument of any of the folks we've listed. The blame for the Laker Dynasty break up falls on the shoulders of 4 men. 4 EGOMANIACAL men:
Shaq -- costing the Lakers a fourpeat, inconsistent conditioning, hot-and-cold locker room presence, feud with Kobe, failing to see the big pic. Kobe -- rebelling against the offense running through Shaq, showing out in games to prove points, leveraging free agency to induce FO to trade Shaq and ax Phil, running off Karl Malone, overall immaturity Phil -- failing to mediate Shaq-Kobe adequately, using tactics that worked with Bulls players but not with Lakers players, pushing for a Kobe trade midseason one year, etc. Buss -- NOT PAYING OR GIVING OWNERSHIP TO JERRY WEST, WHO WAS THE ONLY PERSON IN THE FRANCHISE WHO COULD KEEP KOBE AND SHAQ ON THE SAME PAGE, taking "pay me!" too personally, maybe, ceding control of the franchise over to his son, arguably misleading Kobe into thinking the FO was going to build a winner while dragging his feet, signing off on a trade of Caron Butler without talking to Kobe, letting his son run the franchise, firing Phil. They ALL had a role in the break up of that dynasty. That's too many egos that have to get along with each other. My take on each in bold. [Edited 2/6/09 11:20am] I break GOATS down position-wise: PG - Magic SG - MJ (But Kobe's on his heels, easily) SF - Larry (But Pip was the most complete SF ever and Bron will surpass both eventually) PF - Malone (But TD will surpass him after it's all said and done) C - Kareem There are only 2 people that have NEVER been disputed as the GOAT at their respective positions: Magic and Jerry Rice. And your assessment of the Kobe/Shaq/Phil/Buss fiasco is damn near spot on. nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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MuthaFunka said: I break GOATS down position-wise: PG - Magic Co-sign, the most versatile player in NBA history for my money SG - MJ (But Kobe's on his heels, easily) -- By the time Kobe's done, he and Logo will be 2 and 2a, in either order) SF - Larry (But Pip was the most complete SF ever and Bron will surpass both eventually)Larry Legend is the icon at 3, Bron Bron is a stronger, faster, quicker Magic Johnson, which is frightening and likely illegal in most states, and I can't disagree PF - Malone (But TD will surpass him after it's all said and done) --The only argument Mailman could have over Big Fundy is longevity, stats and athleticism, but I tend to agree here too. Duncan is the cog on the 2000's team of the decade and a 4-time champion C - Kareem The most complete center of the trinity, Cap, Stilt, Russell. Not as many rings as Russell, but led 2 teams to 6 titles, should have arguably had 8 or 9, and "scored the basketball" more than anyone in history. He was so fluid, so smooth, that it made you forget sometimes how dominant he was. And your assessment of the Kobe/Shaq/Phil/Buss fiasco is damn near spot on.
It was mostly all Kobe's fault, as I saw it for years. But after years of anger (mostly towards Kobe), I did my homework. Lazenby's The Show, Phil's The Last Season, and numerous other interviews. When Kobe finally opened up in 2007, and Shaq took up for Kobe around that time, I recanted on my deep anger at Kobe. But as a Lakers fan who had dreamed that the Bling Dynasty would eclipse the Bulls Dynasty but also help the Lakers overtake the Celtics' title tally, I look at 2003-present as the opportunity of a lifetime lost. [Edited 2/6/09 11:45am] [Edited 2/6/09 11:46am] Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016
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I'd have 2 agree with 99% of the above comments but I'd say Jordan was the most versatile player of all time or maybe even Pippen. I think I'd take Hakeem over Russell also. | |
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Graycap23 said: namepeace said: He got too much, I agree. But he deserved a lot. I had a front row seat 4 this mess that was the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. They are all 2 blame but being the finance man that I am, let me assign a Percentage%: Kobe: 45% 4 not repsecting that the team was Shaq's Shaq: 25% 4 not realizing that Kobe was becoming the "new" leader of the team Phil: 15% 4 not taking stepping up and fixing the situation. He fed it instead. Buss: 15% 4 not really wanting 2 pay Shaq and breaking up a title contender. I can understand that. But I'd give Buss some of Kobe's percentage because Buss was the one who had the ability to keep the team together but was induced by Kobe's free agency to make the call. Arguably, it was a good franchise/business decision because Shaq's productivity dropped off as predicted. Plus, if Buss had kept West happy, the team would have stayed together. I'd also give Shaq a little more for setting a bad precedent. He sat on his surgery after the 2002 title season, which cost him about half the season. The team had to exert so much energy in his absence they got run by a hungry Spurs team, and blew a four-peat. That bad blood spilled over into 2003-2004, when he came to camp out of shape. But Kobe DID call Shaq out in Colorado, and that definitely didn't help chemistry in a season when Malone and Payton could have put them over. My numbers: Kobe 35% Shaq 30% Phil 15% Buss 20% Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016
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namepeace said: Graycap23 said: I had a front row seat 4 this mess that was the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. They are all 2 blame but being the finance man that I am, let me assign a Percentage%: Kobe: 45% 4 not repsecting that the team was Shaq's Shaq: 25% 4 not realizing that Kobe was becoming the "new" leader of the team Phil: 15% 4 not taking stepping up and fixing the situation. He fed it instead. Buss: 15% 4 not really wanting 2 pay Shaq and breaking up a title contender. I can understand that. But I'd give Buss some of Kobe's percentage because Buss was the one who had the ability to keep the team together but was induced by Kobe's free agency to make the call. Arguably, it was a good franchise/business decision because Shaq's productivity dropped off as predicted. Plus, if Buss had kept West happy, the team would have stayed together. I'd also give Shaq a little more for setting a bad precedent. He sat on his surgery after the 2002 title season, which cost him about half the season. The team had to exert so much energy in his absence they got run by a hungry Spurs team, and blew a four-peat. That bad blood spilled over into 2003-2004, when he came to camp out of shape. But Kobe DID call Shaq out in Colorado, and that definitely didn't help chemistry in a season when Malone and Payton could have put them over. My numbers: Kobe 35% Shaq 30% Phil 15% Buss 20% We have collectively split the hairs 2 death. All 4 were fools. Championship teams don't grow on trees. | |
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Graycap23 said: I'd have 2 agree with 99% of the above comments but I'd say Jordan was the most versatile player of all time or maybe even Pippen. I think I'd take Hakeem over Russell also.
Hakeem was about as smooth as Cap. I sure can't say you're wrong when you compare Russell's game with Olajuwon's. I only give Magic the nod on versatility because he had the size and athleticism to (and, in fact, did) play any of the 5 positions on the floor at any given time. But no one of his generation was as dominant defensively and offensively as MJ. He was unstoppable offensively, impossible to beat defensively, and ran the floor as well as anyone. On that take, he was more "complete" than Earvin. Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016
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namepeace said: Graycap23 said: I'd have 2 agree with 99% of the above comments but I'd say Jordan was the most versatile player of all time or maybe even Pippen. I think I'd take Hakeem over Russell also.
Hakeem was about as smooth as Cap. I sure can't say you're wrong when you compare Russell's game with Olajuwon's. I only give Magic the nod on versatility because he had the size and athleticism to (and, in fact, did) play any of the 5 positions on the floor at any given time. But no one of his generation was as dominant defensively and offensively as MJ. He was unstoppable offensively, impossible to beat defensively, and ran the floor as well as anyone. On that take, he was more "complete" than Earvin.  | |
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namepeace said: MuthaFunka said: I break GOATS down position-wise: PG - Magic Co-sign, the most versatile player in NBA history for my money SG - MJ (But Kobe's on his heels, easily) -- By the time Kobe's done, he and Logo will be 2 and 2a, in either order) SF - Larry (But Pip was the most complete SF ever and Bron will surpass both eventually)Larry Legend is the icon at 3, Bron Bron is a stronger, faster, quicker Magic Johnson, which is frightening and likely illegal in most states, and I can't disagree PF - Malone (But TD will surpass him after it's all said and done) --The only argument Mailman could have over Big Fundy is longevity, stats and athleticism, but I tend to agree here too. Duncan is the cog on the 2000's team of the decade and a 4-time champion C - Kareem The most complete center of the trinity, Cap, Stilt, Russell. Not as many rings as Russell, but led 2 teams to 6 titles, should have arguably had 8 or 9, and "scored the basketball" more than anyone in history. He was so fluid, so smooth, that it made you forget sometimes how dominant he was. And your assessment of the Kobe/Shaq/Phil/Buss fiasco is damn near spot on.
It was mostly all Kobe's fault, as I saw it for years. But after years of anger (mostly towards Kobe), I did my homework. Lazenby's The Show, Phil's The Last Season, and numerous other interviews. When Kobe finally opened up in 2007, and Shaq took up for Kobe around that time, I recanted on my deep anger at Kobe. But as a Lakers fan who had dreamed that the Bling Dynasty would eclipse the Bulls Dynasty but also help the Lakers overtake the Celtics' title tally, I look at 2003-present as the opportunity of a lifetime lost. [Edited 2/6/09 11:45am] [Edited 2/6/09 11:46am] Yeah, a lot of people blamed (and a lot still do) Kobe for that and I knew all along it was a combo of Shaq and Kobe and then Phil, and THEN Buss. It's funny, sistas HATE Kobe and LOVE Shaq. I know some chicks that stopped being Laker fans because of that feud. The strangest shit is, the sistas were clownin' Kobe for breakin' the "Man code" of telling on ya fellow man when Kobe spilled the beans about Shaq's indiscretions   .nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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Graycap23 said: I'd have 2 agree with 99% of the above comments but I'd say Jordan was the most versatile player of all time or maybe even Pippen. I think I'd take Hakeem over Russell also.
Dream was the most skilled center of all time. If I could only take 2 centers for my All-Time Team, they'd be Dream and Shaq. nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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Graycap23 said: namepeace said: I can understand that. But I'd give Buss some of Kobe's percentage because Buss was the one who had the ability to keep the team together but was induced by Kobe's free agency to make the call. Arguably, it was a good franchise/business decision because Shaq's productivity dropped off as predicted. Plus, if Buss had kept West happy, the team would have stayed together. I'd also give Shaq a little more for setting a bad precedent. He sat on his surgery after the 2002 title season, which cost him about half the season. The team had to exert so much energy in his absence they got run by a hungry Spurs team, and blew a four-peat. That bad blood spilled over into 2003-2004, when he came to camp out of shape. But Kobe DID call Shaq out in Colorado, and that definitely didn't help chemistry in a season when Malone and Payton could have put them over. My numbers: Kobe 35% Shaq 30% Phil 15% Buss 20% We have collectively split the hairs 2 death. All 4 were fools. Championship teams don't grow on trees. Tru dat. What's hilarious is how ALL 4 of them are NOW realizing that! nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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MuthaFunka said: Graycap23 said: I'd have 2 agree with 99% of the above comments but I'd say Jordan was the most versatile player of all time or maybe even Pippen. I think I'd take Hakeem over Russell also.
Dream was the most skilled center of all time. If I could only take 2 centers for my All-Time Team, they'd be Dream and Shaq. I'd take Hakeem over any center..... | |
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Could imagine this team;
Magic Jordan Bird Pippen Hakeem.....against anybody? | |
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Graycap23 said: Could imagine this team;
Magic Jordan Bird Pippen Hakeem.....against anybody? If I cold choose a 13-man roster: Dream Malone KG MJ Magic Shaq Duncan Pippen Kobe Payton Drex Nique Bird SUPER-SICK! nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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MuthaFunka said: Graycap23 said: Could imagine this team;
Magic Jordan Bird Pippen Hakeem.....against anybody? If I cold choose a 13-man roster: Dream Malone KG MJ Magic Shaq Duncan Pippen Kobe Payton Drex Nique Bird SUPER-SICK! No spot 4 my boy Dr. J? Ice Man Gervin? David Thompson? [Edited 2/6/09 13:21pm] | |
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Graycap23 said: MuthaFunka said: If I cold choose a 13-man roster: Dream Malone KG MJ Magic Shaq Duncan Pippen Kobe Payton Drex Nique Bird SUPER-SICK! No spot 4 my boy Dr. J? Ice Man Gervin? David Thompson? [Edited 2/6/09 13:21pm] Dawg, who do I take off in order for them to get put on? nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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Wilt, Wilt, Wilt.....GOAT | |
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Graycap23 said: We have collectively split the hairs 2 death. All 4 were fools. Championship teams don't grow on trees.
 much less Sports Dynasties.Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016
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Uh... Portland loses to Oklahoma City. They've got no chance at a playoff series win if they keep playing so inconsistently and refuse to play D. Feel free to join in the Prince Album Poll 2018! Let'a celebrate his legacy by counting down the most beloved Prince albums, as decided by you! | |
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Great afternoon of basketball today, folks. For us hoops fans, it doesn't get any better than Spurs/Celtics and Cavs/Lakers! Two possible Finals previews. | |
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uPtoWnNY said: Great afternoon of basketball today, folks. For us hoops fans, it doesn't get any better than Spurs/Celtics and Cavs/Lakers! Two possible Finals previews.
Lakers play the Cavs, and the Cavs are undefeated at home? - No problem.  nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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I guess Mutha was right....losing Bynum has had NO effect....Lakers are looking good...though I'm not too sure about the Morrison for Radmanovich trade.... He was like a cock who thought the sun had risen to hear him crow.
(George Eliot) the video for the above... 
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reneGade20 said: I guess Mutha was right....losing Bynum has had NO effect....Lakers are looking good...though I'm not too sure about the Morrison for Radmanovich trade....
It's the same lineup they had that got them to the Finals last season. As for the trade, it was done to clear up money to re-sign Odom and Ariza. Morrison's a headcase but Shannon brown may be of some help at the 1 and 2 spot. nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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MuthaFunka said: reneGade20 said: I guess Mutha was right....losing Bynum has had NO effect....Lakers are looking good...though I'm not too sure about the Morrison for Radmanovich trade....
It's the same lineup they had that got them to the Finals last season. As for the trade, it was done to clear up money to re-sign Odom and Ariza. Morrison's a headcase but Shannon brown may be of some help at the 1 and 2 spot. I just hope that if the Lakers get upset in the playoffs that ol' Adam doesn't lay out on the half-court line  his eyes out...
He was like a cock who thought the sun had risen to hear him crow.
(George Eliot) the video for the above...
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reneGade20 said: MuthaFunka said: It's the same lineup they had that got them to the Finals last season. As for the trade, it was done to clear up money to re-sign Odom and Ariza. Morrison's a headcase but Shannon brown may be of some help at the 1 and 2 spot. I just hope that if the Lakers get upset in the playoffs that ol' Adam doesn't lay out on the half-court line his eyes out...
 I STILL can't believe he did that bitch-ass shit! nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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