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Printableian said: Depends what you define "free will" as being. Your thoughts exist because of the the neural activity in your brain. Whether you can claim credit for those thoughts yourself, or whatever you prefer to give the credit to the individual synaptic links or even individual molecules doesn't really matter. Take credit for all the good ideas, and blame Nature for all the bad ones.
Being firmly in the "strong AI" camp myself, I can say that what we perceive as thought processes are probably just the side effect of neurons firing at synapses etc. Most/all of the important thought patterns we need to survive and to live are already pre-learned before we are born. So apply whatever value you wish to "free will" but frankly I think it is overrated 
Regardless of that though, we certainly do have morality, ethics, and the ability to choose right from wrong. I can choose my own actions, based on the neural model that exists in my head that has evolved throughout my life and developed according to my environment and stimuli. Laypersons (that is, non computer scientists) with an interest in AI and the various theories of sentience and consciousness could do worse than have a read of Penrose's "The Emperor's New Mind" - it's written in very simple terms and reads like a "pop science" manual - very readible. For the more techy / mathematically minded among us I suggest starting with Norvig's "Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach" which is the Bible for AI really. Yeaaahhh. . ."side effect". . .still very vague. I hear ya, though. Will all of the problems, I'm still not willing to take dualism seriously, and tend to take a strong AI position myself. You say that we "certainly" have the ability to choose right from wrong, etc. . .not if we don't even have the ability to choose our next thought! That's the worry that I have. Thanks for the book reccs. I also really like "Being There", by Clark. Doves, Mel!ssa | |
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I don't know about free will, but no one ever had to pay for my willy. NOT that I couldn't loan it on a hourly basis, but ya know me... always offering and stuff. | |
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i don't believe in free will. i'm totally a determinist. | |
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tackam said: You say that we "certainly" have the ability to choose right from wrong, etc. . .not if we don't even have the ability to choose our next thought! That's the worry that I have. Well I really wouldn't "worry" about it if I were you
I don't really get your point I'm afraid. What is the "we" entity you refer to? You (the person, the personality) are the sum total of your thought patterns, and whatever magical dust constitutes sentience. Why should you "choose" a thought - you ARE your thoughts! Your mental processes define who you are - and regardless of what your personality is, most humans are graced with abilities of reasoning - cause and effect - and are capable of making decisions to achieve a required outcome. That is as close to free will as you'll get, and it's as close as you need really. | |
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AaronForever said: i don't believe in free will. i'm totally a determinist. Yes, you are.Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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ian said: ...most humans are graced with abilities of reasoning - cause and effect - and are capable of making decisions to achieve a required outcome. That is as close to free will as you'll get, and it's as close as you need really. Yes, we would like to think this is true, but go back to my comments regarding the movie "America Perfekt". Every man and woman is capable of free will, sure, but do they make an effort to use it is the question. How many times have we allowed others to make decisions for us or refused to make decisions for ourselves. I've done it before, and I'm sure many people have done so before also. The trick is to know when it's time to decide and think for yourself or when to allow someone or something else to do it for you. High school peer pressure and religion are prime examples of how free will gets put on the back burner. In humans free will is not a scientific phenomenon. It's a matter of actively and willfully exerting one's own choice after, hopefully, weighing the pros and cons of a given situation. As you say cause and effect.  "Use this tool to control the masses w/guaranteed success: Divide/Conquer =>No Communication cuz we are Divided =>Misunderstanding cuz we don't Communicate =>We can't Agree we only Misunderstand =>Chaos cuz we can't Agree. Chaos-an evil tool indeed!" | |
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I'm coming in here from a totally different angle.
Free will is your conscious decision to be responsible for your self. For your thoughts, feelings and actions. Free will is owning you, be it activity that occurs in your conscious or unconscious self. Interesting thread. Also, what if ultimately, even after taking responsibility for the above, you realise that everything in the universe is actually out of your control and that what you realise in your self at whatever level, is an observation of part of what the universe is made of? And that every other living thing in the universe has their own unique view like this? And that to be aware of yourself is the only form of free will that is available? That what you actually 'experience' is out of control, yet you have the control and free will as to whether you 'tune in' to your own frequency or not!!!  | |
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