ICE, considering that we r having a discussion on atheism/christianity eye think it is extremely well in the conversation 2 talk about the holy spirit... eye believe u can't stand hearing of such a thing because ur body rejects the truth/word of god... Atheists cannot stand hearing of the power of God just like the devil can't stand 2 hear it either.

Thecherryloon said:

Sorry, I'll leave you two alone on your thread now, but i'd appreciate a response from Ranestar on what i posted above.

RaneStarr said:

I have read the bible multiple times, but I have never "asked god for guidance" at any time. Asking god for guidance would be an empty gesture, as I do not believe in the existence of god, therefore I have not done that.

Why would I ever resort to saying "please lord help me in knowing u (sic)/or the truth" when I do not believe in god? That would be the exact same thing as my asking Santa Claus if Rudolph's nose was really red like they say in the stories. It is nonsensical and useless to me.

Once again, please stop with the "ego" comments and all of that. I would appreciate it if you would simply debate the topic like an adult, please.

RaneStarr said:

Please, please, please, stop with the dogma. I have no problem with hearing people state their views, but your comments do nothing to further the debate.

If you are capable of debating this issue, please do so without statements such as:

"eye believe u can't stand hearing of such a thing because ur body rejects the truth/word of god"

"cannot stand hearing of the power of God just like the devil can't stand 2 hear it either"

These statements are not topics for debate, they are closed, dogmatic statements and are not conducive to discussion.

Ice,

Maybe that is the problem, How can u reject something u have not not tried 2 xperience. Y don't u open ur mind and just say okay eye'm human, human have faults, eye might not b correct, eye might b correct but let me set aside my feelings and xperiment... take a bible and have a normal conversation with God (it is best if u have he conversation out loud) and if u r open 2 getting answers U WILL get them ICE... if there is no God he will not answer u, if there is a God he will answer u, it's all very simple. it's all a question of setting aside ego and being willing 2 receive answers u may not want

She can't do it. All she knows how to do is feel, not think. All she can do is say 'Jesus loves you/me' or 'you're scared' or other judgements/dogmatic statements.

All I have to say, I'll leave you to it...

IceNine said:

ICE this is a discussion on atheism Vs Christianism what do u want me 2 respond 2 u with, a cook book verse? eye am stating what eye believe 4rom the bible... How can we discuss this issue if u reject even the mere expression of something that comes out of the bible? lol... if my statements r so insignificant y do they bother u so much? lol

RaneStarr said:

You are making me laugh, RaneStarr.

"Atheists cannot stand hearing of the power of God just like the devil can't stand 2 hear it either."

Is it the "devil" who is making you commit these sins that you speak of, or are you just being human? If you fully believed in the Bible and the word of God, why would you pick and choose parts of his words to live by? Why would you not live by his word, no matter what? Here you are, preaching the word of God, but you yourself don't live by it with all of these "sins" you say that you commit.

If you believe that you will be forgiven for all of the sins that you commit, why would you feel the need to preach to others... would they not be forgiven in their lack of belief or faith? Or, is it that since you believe you can commit all the sins you want, ask God for forgiveness and start with a fresh clean slate to sin all over again?

If God does, in fact, exist... he will not only forgive those who say they follow his word and live by the example of Jesus - when they don't, but he will also forgive those who do not have faith in his existence.

Thecherryloon said:

still waiting here!

RaneStarr said:

I can respect that you feel that way, but I do not agree that a god will answer you.

I believe, as did Freud, that this is nothing more than psychological wish fulfillment. That is what I was talking about when I said that we find what we want to find when reading the bible. I view things from a rational viewpoint rather than a mystical viewpoint, therefore I will not "hear" the voice of god directing me or answering my questions.

I believe that more insight can be gained by thinking and reasoning than by externalizing your inner wishes and ascribing them to a god. God is whatever we want it to be.

"Men make gods in their own image; those of the Ethiopians are black and snub-nosed, those of the Thracians have blue eyes and red hair. If horses or oxen or lions had hands and could produce works of art, they too would represent the gods after their own fashion." - Xenophanes

Mankind has been searching for god throughout eternity and there are as many concepts of god as there are conceivers.

star, it amazes me that ppl think that being Christian means u r without sin... eye cr8 my sins because there is something called "free will" eye cannot blame God 4 my sins, and eye cannot blame the devil 4 trying 2 make me sin. THEY R BOTH BATTLING 4 MY SOUL. It is my responsibility 2 seek the word of God, and live my life as eye wish. eye am not an angel and neither is EVERY Christian that is on earth. We are blatant sinners, but we can ask god 4 4giveness and he will 4give. We must learn 4rom our mistakes and not keep committing the same sins over and over and over, but no matter how many times we do sin, God will be there 2 4give.

RaneStarr said:

Your statements do not bother me, it is the smug, condescending presentation that has been annoying everyone. I have no problem with people who believe in god and I have a tremendous amount of respect for those who believe and do not dogmatically present bible verses or christian concepts as law.

How do I expect you to debate?

That is easy... I expect you to EXPLAIN your views in human terms without relying on dogma to make your point. This is not that hard to do.

I had some wonderful debates with WellBeyond over the last week or so that were amazingly elegant. Being an intelligent and thoughtful man, WellBeyond never once used dogma from the bible to make his point. He debated the issue from HIS mind and HIS intellect.

This is what I would expect from any intelligent person debating any issue.

Damn you, Icenine. You had to know it would turn out this way. This debate wasn't meant to be. You knew damn well it wouldn't happen in your terms, so I can only guess that your real motive was to show that Renestarr is incapable of true debate in your opinion. Very oblique, my friend. It's great to see some quality strategy around here for a change.

IceNine said:

what is amazing about this statement is that u won't even try it, lol... It's amazing how ppl can assume they KNOW everything and don't even consider the fact they might be wrong... ICE, after u have xausted all the venues THAT IS WHEN U MAKE UR DECISION BOUT SOMETHING AS SERIOUS AS THIS. u can't just say "nope, eye don't believe, won't even go there, 4 what reason??" u xpiriment EVERYTHING and then walk the walk.

How can u come 2 me and say u don't believe in God when u have never tried 2 look 4 him... lol... GOD DOES NOT NEED U 2 GO 2 HIM, He is God, HE WANTS U 2 GO 2 HIM

RaneStarr said:

there is no such thing as a soul nothing is battling for it.If you were an insect or plant would you think of a soul? NO.As i stated Human beings created the God/heaven concept because we have brains that are capable of dreaming and rational thought, we are (allegedly) the most intelligent creatures on the planet.Unfortunately some people are scared shitless of dying and that being all, so they choose to believe in heaven.

we'll see.

RaneStarr said:

I do not feel that being Christian means you are without sin, in fact, the vast majority of Christians that I know are the worst sinners out there. They do feel that because they attend service once or twice a week that it is quite alright to do the things they do to others in between asking for forgiveness.

Yes, there is something called "free will"... and each one of us has that free will to believe in whatever it is that we want without another shoving the word of God or Jesus down our throats. You don't see many agnostics or athiests going about and trying to convert people into not believing.

"but no matter how many times we do sin, God will be there 2 4give"

If Christians really felt this to be true, they would not be shoving it down everyone's throat and telling non-believers to "give God a chance". It would be okay for these non-believers to live by that thing called "free will". Again, if he will forgive people for their sins, no matter how many times they commit them, he will certainly forgive those who had no faith. Correct?

"It's amazing how ppl can assume they KNOW everything and don't even consider the fact they might be wrong"

The same can be said about you.

let me just state that all of u that r coming in here r bashing ME the one that speaks of a man who never did anything evil 2 anyone...

What does that say about u??, 4 every one christian there is always 10 atheists trying 2 handle they bizness!
AND THAT ONLY PROVES THAT DEVIL LIKES 2 KNOCK DOWN THE BELIEVERS OF JESUS CHRIST

Look at this thread, everyone against me and with good reason 2! "look at rane, defending a man with honesty and integrity! how dare her!, she defends the teachings of man who never hated!"

RaneStarr said:

Once again, you are saying that your position is superior and that EVERYONE should try to believe in your god.

Do you not see that arrogance and condescension that is inherent in statement such as the one that you just made? Just because you believe that there is a god does not mean that everyone else must try to believe as you do.

Just because you believe that you know when the proper time to make a decision is does not mean that it is right.

You will not ever see me telling people that they MUST not believe in god or that they MUST doubt that god exists and try being an atheist/agnostic before deciding to believe in god, as that would be terribly egotistical and arrogant.

RaneStarr said:

I am not an athiest.

RaneStarr said:

You are not a martyr, so get off the cross and debate the issue if you are capable, please.

AzureStar said:

star, eye do not feel God 4gives u as many times as u ask, it must be an honest plea 4 4giveness, u just can't go around sinning the same sin over and over and asking 4 4giveness if u don't mean it... God knows the heart, and if u r truly sorry 4 the sin then of course u won't do it again... very simple!


and like eye said b4 eye don't care if ppl worship a stick with plastic forks as arms, eye am saying that ppl should xaust all the possiblities b4 they make such a definate decision as 2 if there is a God


and u said u don't c Atheists trying 2 shove their ideas 2 christians, than why am eye fighting this battle by myself (and handling my own very well! ) and there are about 10 of u against me

IceNine said:

It's about the WAY you do it--no one here has said anything negative about "your Jesus"...

RaneStarr said:

I'm not bashing you, you just don't accept the fact you're fertiliser for the grass and the trees in the cemetary, nothing more.

Show me proof of a soul.

IceNine said:

don't twist my words, eye myself had questions about God and his xistance, but eye XAUSTED ALL THE POSSIBILITIES b4 eye made my decision, u on the other hand r arrogant enuff 2 say that u have never even bothered speak 2 god and ask 4 guidance

like eye said b4 eye don't care if u worship a rock dude...

RaneStarr said:

Trust me, in the terms of debate, you are not holding your own at all.

If holding your own means continuing to rely solely on dogma and zealotry, you are doing a fine job.

Please try to actually discuss the issue... I honestly started this topic so that we could try to discuss this in my normal mode of discussion... that is calmly and rationally.

Are you capable of discussing this issue rationally and without dogma? If so, please do so.

eye have 2 teach some classes, eye'll b back later on

RaneStarr said:

My not believing in god is not "arrogant" in any way... and I NEVER tell other people that they are wrong for believing in god, whereas you call people arrogant for not believing.

Your statements on the subject of religion do nothing to further your cause and are actually harmful in that they will certainly turn people off.

RaneStarr said:

Yes, you said that you did. "We must learn 4rom our mistakes and not keep committing the same sins over and over and over, but no matter how many times we do sin, God will be there 2 4give."

"and if u r truly sorry 4 the sin then of course u won't do it again... very simple! "

Now, come on... you can't believe that to be true. You have never done something and were truly sorry about it and did it yet again? Are you married? Do you have sex?

"eye am saying that ppl should xaust all the possiblities b4 they make such a definate decision as 2 if there is a God"

Who are you to say that they haven't? There are other ways to exhaust possibilities other than "your way".

You aren't fighting a battle... people are just trying to get you to actually debate here. That's all. In order to debate you don't simply tell others that they are wrong in their position, you discuss things with the other who has an opposing view and state thoughts that back up your view and they will do the same. You see?

Once again, not all of us on this thread are Athiests...



.
[This message was edited Sat Nov 2 10:21:35 PST 2002 by AzureStar]

RaneStarr said:

Let me guess--Bible Classes?! HOpefully not, cause if so you're not teaching them how to defend their faith. Probably just how to do your 'lil dance' and quote things...

RaneStarr,

This debate is going nowhere, as you are incapable of stating and advancing an argument logically and with any sense of underlying reason. I am very disappointed in the way this is turning out and I wish that you would at least TRY to engage in a meaningful discourse.

I truly want to discuss this with you, but I would really appreciate it if you would actually try to DISCUSS the issue.

Thanks,
Tony