Post your first comment/question, RaneStarr:

u wanted 2 debate and didn't think eye would, so u go ahead and do us the great pleasure of starting it off


b4 we start eye would like 2 say that because one believes in Jesus/christianity it does not mean one is above anyone or that you r holy, perfect, without sin, superior, or saintly. If eye start listing my sins we'll b here for many days and nights... but What eye am saying is that these atheists seem 2 hate is that eye believe Jesus loves me regardless...

Do you believe that your views are superior to the views of others who do not believe in god? Please explain why you believe that your views are better or are not better.

okay, ICE... did eye not answer ur question on the first post... let me know if u r going 2 b reading what eye say, cuz if ur not this conversation is ova'

RaneStarr said:

I am asking the question because you have repeatedly placed the views of christianity above the views of everyone else. You have gone so far as to say that homosexuals are immoral and sinful abominations. You have continued to dogmatically preach the bible instead of debating topics.

If you do not believe that your views are better than those of other people, why do you resort to ONLY speaking of "jesus" and the bible?

You can ask a question if you refuse to answer this one.

Okay... since you apparently refuse to answer the previous question I will pose another one.

Do you think that it is productive to debate issues with agnostics/atheists by using the bible as your information source, or do you think that original thought and personal insight of a non-mystical nature would be more useful?

Hi Icenine, do you believe the Bible to be half true, partly true, or not true at all? Do you believe the histories of the bible? What is your view on the Bible as a book?

Eye don't care if people worship God, Devil, or a stick with plastic forks as arms. What eye do have a problem is with ppl like urself trying 2 dominate over what eye feel is true, and cannot stand the fact that eye have an answer 2 ALL ur questions.

Eye said that in the previous thread that eye do believe that being Gay is a sin, but eye also stated that so r MANY of the things that eye do aswell. Eye also stated that humans do not need 2 judge others, because we always fail at it. eye used the example of christians protesting abortions because they believe it is murder, and then turn around and plant bombs 4 the doctors who perform them! lol... how ridiculous is that? eye also used the example of gay bashing by christians. eye stated that many of us who claim 2 b christians go around pointing fingers at gays and then live outside the sanctity of marriage, cheat on mates, lie, r envious of others etc etc etc...

jesus, how many threads do we need to debate this? there have to be at least 2 dozen of them.

this is getting to be the new "war with iraq" type of topic.

RaneStarr said:

That is all well and good, but you are not debating or explaining yourself...

In order to make this flow a little better, please ask a question to start the debate.

IceNine said:

u have 2 wait till eye finish, don't try 2 dominate over me, cuz IT AIN'T GONNA WORK. u WILL wait till eye'm done answering and eye WILL ANSWER ALL UR QUESTIONS with DETAIL and or Examples.

It is productive 2 debate issues with an agnostic/atheist w/ the bible 4 the simple reason that my truth is based on the bible and ur truth is based on science/philosophy... how can we argue productively if we cannot dicuss the foundations of what we feel is true. NOW the real question is, y r u so hesitant in hearing what eye have 2 say about a man that never did anything bad 2 anyone? and even if u did not believe in him, y so much hatred 4 a mythical man who supposedly healed the sick, preached love, unity, equality 4 everyone, and died a selfless death???

AbucahX said:

I do not believe that the bible is divine in any way, as I do not believe in divinity, but I believe that the bible has been helpful to a great number of people. I doubt the historical accuracy of the majority of the stories of the bible and I absolutely do not believe many of the stories of the bible.

There is a good possibility that some of it is based in fact... stories about regular people and things of that nature.

I believe that the bible should not be taken literally and that it is more like a parable than a historical work.

AaronForever said:

I tend to agree Aaron... it's getting a bit much.

I'm a "First Post AntiIceninist". My people believe that IceNine is an immoral and sinful abomination, and luckily enough, we've managed to locate an obscure piece of scripture that allows us (if you read it upside down, with your eyes squinted) to SMITE the heretic, burn him, and then have a cheese and wine reception afterwards. It's a lot more civilised than it sounds, believe me. I don't hold with all those barbaric religions of yesteryear!

AaronForever said:

Jesus can't hear you, let alone type a message back.

As for Iraq, is that not really an example of Christianity beating down on another Religion.Some may disagree IMO it's really only about gaining the oil out there.

Greed, one of the seven sins.

eye would like 2 request that me and ICE have some time 2 answer r questions please, it can get 2 b a bit much if everyone starts asking us questions aswell

IceNine said:

eye disagree, eye believe that if one is open 2 picking up the Bible and askin the "higher power" 4 guidance, God would guide u 2 understanding...

RaneStarr said:

The point that I am making is that you cannot use the "divinity" of Jesus to argue about the "divinity" of Jesus. The argument is circular and is nonsense.

I have no problem with the character of Jesus in any way. I believe that Jesus was a good man who tried to teach people morality, but he was not the son of god or any of that. Many historical figures had basically said the same things that Jesus said before he said them but they did not claim to be the son of god. I put just as much stock in the words of Buddha, Socrates, Plato or any other historical figure as I do in the words of Jesus, but this does not make Jesus a useless figure in history.

I am not concerned with the death of Jesus on the cross... Socrates willingly went to his death when he could easily have escaped it... does this make Socrates god?

Furthermore, I do not hate the historical figure of Jesus. I have nothing against Jesus or those who believe in him non-dogmatically and tolerantly without telling others exactly how wrong they are for not believing in the bible.

In short, I am not anti-christian, I am anti-zealot.

RaneStarr said:

I do not disagree. I believe that you will find what you expect to find in the bible and I fully respect people's right to read, study, search and find their answers. The only problem I have is when religion is presented dogmatically and as the word of law, disregarding the views and beliefs of others.

I completely and totally respect christians, muslims, etc. who believe what they believe and are confident enough to not tell other people that they are wrong and are "abominations" for not believing in the bible. There is much to learn from such people and I believe that they are great and moral individuals and I have the highest respect for them.

Ranestar, do you really believe in The great flood and the story of Noah?

do you think that really happened? How would that have been logisticaly possible? To build a vessel that large and colect two of every animal on the planet, and control them?

Actually u can change ur demeanor on this thread all u want, but the fact is that u jumped at me on the other thread because eye spoke of the goodness of a man that u do not know. but eye'm here 2 tell u that he knows u, and he loves u, and whether u believe in him or not he believes in u... u can cuss him out all u want like on the last thread, u can damn him, and he still will 4give... but atheists hate this concept and the question is why? lol

ICE, once u recieve the holy spirit, it will confirm that there is a God.

RaneStarr said:

I told you that I would be 100% rational, calm, polite and cordial on this thread and would debate.

That is what this is about.

I did not "jump at" you on the other thread because you "spoke of the goodness of a man." I have no problem with Jesus but I do have a problem with the delivery of the message. Dogmatic pontification about religious issues and outright dismissal of the views, feelings and beliefs of other people never fails to aggravate me and I was responding to the tone that you set with your statements.

This topic has nothing to do with that and I would appreciate it if you would stick to the topic at hand and debate it in an adult manner. I have no intention of flaming you or insulting you and I would appreciate it if you would simply do what we set out to do here, that is debate this issue as adults.

Please continue at your earliest convenience.

RaneStarr said:

Please do not resort to this tactic, as it is not productive in a debate.

Do you believe that this sort of statement would be allowed in a collegiate debate or a court of law? Please, let's try to make this debate reasonable and rational.

Who knows, maybe we will end up understanding one another and will come away from this debate as better people.

AaronForever said:

Doesn't anyone wanna talk about One Man Jam??

Thecherryloon said:

I was not involving the Iraq debate in the religion debate. I was saying that we tend to go on sprees where there are about 2 dozen threads about the same thing for a couple weeks. Iraq, Prince song/album suvivor tournaments, religion, etc...

AaronForever said:

This thread has nothing to do with the ongoing series of threads. This thread is a personal debate between myself and RaneStarr that was proposed last night on another topic.

well eye'm not asking u 2 b politically correct here... eye believe that the ICE that came out on the other thread is the TRUE thoughts/feelings of atheists like urself. Don't come at me like u respect christianity/Jesus and that u simply state ur case and move on... u clearly displayed ur true feelings on the thread going as far as taking the song of "Jesus Loves Me" and changing 2 Jesus sucked my dick or something... SHOW UR TRUE COLORS, don't b all fake now that everyone is watching
[This message was edited Sat Nov 2 9:18:02 PST 2002 by RaneStarr]

RaneStarr said:

I'm more convinced of Aliens and Ghosts than i am of Jesus, I file him in the same category as Dracula, Santa, the tooth fairy, and Alice in wonderland etc.

What makes me uncomfortable is the fact you think you know him just by believing in him.you don't know him any more than i do,because he does not exist.

I reject Christ,when i die i get buried in the ground, i'll be wormfood or smoke up a chimney.My soul goes nowhere.Because human beings are blessed and cursed with imagination and intelligence,souls and the afterlife (and Heaven) concept was created to shield us from the horrible fact that we'll die and all we'll become is fertiliser for plant life.Religion and heaven is a pacifier dreamt up for frightened people.

no more, no less.Time to get real people.

Let me ask u ICE,


have u ever picked up a bible and asked God 4 guidance? Have u ever said eye have some questions about life and eye'm confused and IF there is a God, please lord help me in knowing u/or the truth.

If u do it with ego and u don't humble urself it will not work, but if u r thirsty he will give u water... Eye highly doubt that ur ego will let u do this, and that is y u do not go 2 god with ur questions and concerns.

RaneStarr said:

You are absolutely incorrect in your assumption. I am posting as myself on this topic and this is how I choose to debate topics when dealing with sensible people. I am assuming that you are a sensible person.

I was attempting to annoy and offend you last night, that is why I suggested a separate topic to discuss, as I was not being true to my actual thoughts or feelings last night and was reacting to your dogmatic zeal.

I think that you will find that I am being 100% true to who I am right now and I do not want this to descend into either dogma or insults, so please cease that line of descent.

If you do not believe what I say about my true feelings, please feel free to ask around and you will find that this is my normal mode of operation.

Now, please actually start debating the issues as an adult and we will see where this goes, otherwise there is no use in continuing.

Once again, I was purposely being rude and offensive last night in an attempt to mirror your offensive and rude comments toward non-believers. I hope that you can understand that and will realize that this debate was not intended to be anything other than civil and organized.

Please continue with an actual debate.