MuthaFunka said:

So u are telling me that Jordan did not make these guys better players when they played with HIM:

Bill Cartwright
John Paxson
Steve Kerr
Will Perdue
Stacy King
Horance Grant
B.J. Armstrong
Cliff Livingston
Trent Tucker
Craig Hodges
Toni Kukoc
Bill Wennington
Scott Williams
Bobby Hansen

MuthaFunka said:

Are both statments not FACTUAL?

In 1994, The Bulls had the same roster as the year before EXCEPT Jordan. Did they win a title? No
When Jordan returned, in his 1st full season back, they WON 3 more titles. What was the difference? Jordan. He made his teammates play like champions. U can't see that?

Graycap23 said:

No- obviously you don't know basketball, graycap, because you don't agree with him!

Moonbeam said:

lol.....

Graycap23 said:

No, because Magic scould set up Vlade Divac for a 10 footer and he'd probably brick, however, Magic could set up Kareem for that exact same shot and he's probably make it. Why? Kareem himself made the shot, not Magic. All Magic did was make the situation EASIER for Cap, it was on Cap himself to make the shot after that.

MuthaFunka said:

But that brings up my counterpoint . . . the more Shaq gets the ball, the more the floor opens up, and the more productive your supporting cast is. Kobe tried to take the games over when he didn't need to. And there were some indications that the supporting cast wasn't getting the runs they needed.

According to Wikipedia, this was the AP report on Game 4:



The recap of the game from the espn website also states:



Jackson might have had something to do with the ineffectiveness of the supporting cast with his personnel decisions.

I think you're right . . . the supporting cast was either too old or too ineffective throughout the course of the series to take more than 1 game. BUT they were going to live and die with O'Neal, and Kobe took that option away from them.

MuthaFunka said:

Wow.

You might have watched a lot of sports. You might have written a lot about sports. You might have gravy-trained around a lot of athletes.

But it's obvious you've never PLAYED any team sport at an advanced level.

Wow.

AlexdeParis said:

Right, but still - the onus is on the individual to TAKE what he saw from that great player and apply it to himself. He won't get better by just 'watching' him. That player has to physical implememnt what he's seen and learn from that player and get better by himself. So at best, what you're saying is "A great player can set the example for hs teammates to THEN work on themselves to get better" but it still falls on the individual.

Graycap23 said:

No, because when they left, most of those players didn't put up the same stats as they did WITH MJ. Now, if a great player is supposed to make his teammates better, then how come most of them didn't REMAIN better after they left?

Take BJ Armstrong - After he left the Bulls, his stats weren't ever the same. He went from an All Star starting PG to a back-up scrub after he left the Bulls. Why? Because MJ didn't make him better, he just made the game easier for BJ to succeed when given the opportunity. After BJ left, there was no great player to make the game easier for BJ and the game became HARDER for him to succeed when given the opportunity.

MuthaFunka said:

In principle, i agree with u, but the subtles of the game are HUGE. When u play against good competition, u get better over time. That's a fact. The Bulls practice games were often more interesting than actual NBA games. Jordan played practice games like REAL games. He drove his teammates 2 be better players. That's a fact and if u ever talk 2 one, they will tell u that.

Graycap23 said:

No, because you MJ didn't do it by himself. No player ever has.

Graycap23 said:

You have the whole thing reversed: They didn't win because they didn't have the best player in the game. That same team went deep into the playoffs even without MJ. Taking away ANY team's best player is usually gonna keep them from winning the title. C'mon, playa - you know this.

MuthaFunka said:

lol;
Fact: Jordan has NEVER lost in the NBA finals.
Fact: basketball is a TEAM sport.

Did I leave anything out?

Moonbeam said:

No, gray knows the game. It's YOU who has very little knowledge of the game. NO ONE HERE would EVER agree with you that "Kobe Bryant was detrimental to Kwame Brown's game"

MuthaFunka said:

But I think u are missing my point. Jordan was the KEY factor in driving his teammates 2 perform. When they couldn't, he took up the slack. That's the difference between him and Kobe.

RodeoSchro said:

I hate to break this to you,son - But I played high school/college football. Now, if YOU can actually counter my explanation, then the floor is yours. Now, remember, were grown ass men here, so don't get all uptight if no one coddles you during this discussion. Cool?

MuthaFunka said:

lol.....u just proved my point. They were better because MJ made them better when they played with him. The sum was greater than the parts.

Graycap23 said:

Ok, but a player doesn't just get better by osmosis, dawg. He has to "up his intensity, game, and knowledge" HIMSELF to be able to get better from those practices. You make it seem like it was "I played vs MJ in practice and MAGICALLY I just get better." No, he practiced against MJ. He realized how serious MJ took the game. That player THEN made the conscious decision to HIMSELF to say "Damn, MJ is a beast about his. I'm going to have to get better to be able to compete." It's HIS thought process and decision to make himself better. MJ did nothing but be the example.

Graycap23 said:

LOL! Yeah - The correct sentence combo: MJ's Bulls never lost a Finals.

No one walks around saying "Paxson never lost a Finals"

Graycap23 said:

No, Jordan was the key factor in the 6 titles. That's it. If what you said was the case, then how come they didn't win the title in 94 when he returned during the tail end of the season if it was simply "MJ driving his teammates to perform"? What happened?

MuthaFunka said:

But that's doing something. Sure, it's indirect, but it's still influential. I think that's everyone's point (well, mine at least).

Graycap23 said:

So they were only better FOR THAT MOMENT? - Does that really make any sense to you, dawg? I don't know about YOU, but when I get better, it just isn't "for a moment". I STAY better .

AlexdeParis said:

I don't know if that's everyone's point, but "influential" would be closer than saying "A great player MAKES his teammates better".

Again, how come MJ didn't make Dave Corzine better when he had him?

MuthaFunka said:

Not if u are a SCRUB which 80% of Jordan's teammates were.

Graycap23 said:

But wait! You just sat here and said "MJ MADE his TEAMMATES better" did you not? So why couldn't he make the SCRUBS better, aren't they HIS TEAMMATES? - (Dawg, it's a loaded-ass question and I got you under the gun with this one once you answer, watch! LOL!)

MuthaFunka said:

Champions when the played with HIM. Scrubs in all other cases.

MuthaFunka said:

How can u make someone better who calls 4 the ball, u pass it, and he is standing out of bounds?

Graycap23 said:

LMAO! So without MJ they forgot how to play "better"?

MuthaFunka said:

U tell me. What did Luc Lonley do 4 the Knicks?