MuthaFunka said:

Now u know very well that stats can "say" what ever u wish. I watched those games very closely. I KNOW the deal.....

Graycap23 said:

But YOU brought up the stats, not ME! All I did was prove to you that Shaq's stats weren't the issue, the supporting cast was.

MuthaFunka said:

Those games were not lost because of stats. After game 1, Kobe decided that he should be the MVP. Granted injuries and all of the things u mention took place, but Kobe's little "ME" act took over the remaining games.

Graycap23 said:

So if it wasn't the supporting cast's struggles, then all you have to do is name JUST ONE NBA team that won a title with 3 of its starting 5 averaging:

6pts/Game (Devo)
5pts/Game (Malone)
4pts/Game (Payton)

MuthaFunka said:

Maybe Detroit had something 2 do with it?

Graycap23 said:

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't change the point though - 6pts/5pts/4pts - Not a good thing when you're trying to win a title . If THAT'S what your supporting cast is gonna give you - then you have no other choice but to take it upon yourself to win it. Ya boy MJ lived by that rule, so don't fault Kobe for doing the exact same thing.

MuthaFunka said:

Jordans was SUCCESSFUL at it.

Graycap23 said:

Not witout Pip/Horace & Pip/Rodman

MuthaFunka said:

Lol.....just another reason not 2 EVER compare Kobe 2 Jordan.

Graycap23 said:

Then, playa - YOU don't know hoops! Because every analyst and ever true hooper sees the comparisons! Even ya boy MJ SAID IT!

MuthaFunka said:

I KNOW this.....Jordan NEVER lost in the Finals. Hell, he was never even pushed 2 a 7th game in the Finals. In fact, other than Jordan and Pippen, no other player can claim at least 6 titles.....and NO losses in the Finals.

And before u pull out some scrub, they DON'T count.

Graycap23 said:

Now, if you can PROVE MJ played 1-on-5 during those 6 Finals - You win this topic HANDS DOWN, playa!

You can't sit there and talk about Kobe trying to do it by himself when MJ couldn't do it by HIMSELF either.

Naw, it was still the Pistons that set the tone. Kobe shot crazy because he didn't have any other choice after Shaq. Who was left to "go to"?

Game 1 - Shaq had 34/11 and Malone had 4/11. Malone's 4pts is what killed the Lakers and that pretty much set the tone for them. Payton had 3pts and Devo had 5pts.

Game 2 - Shaq had 29/9, Malone had 9/9, Payton 2, Devo had 7.

Game 3 - The Lakers (for the series as well) were completely done: Shaq had 14, Payton had 6, Devo had 8, and Mailman had 5.

Game 4 - Shaq had a monster game with 36/20, Payton had 8, Malone had 2, Devo had 5.

Game 5 - Shaq had 20/8, Payton had 2pts, Devo had 4pts, and Slava Medvedenko had 10. Malone = DNP.

So, seriously, even with Shaq - Kobe had no choice but to gun it because no one else came to play for that series. Malone was hurt and ineffective, Devo is a scrub, and Payton played like a scrub.

Graycap23 said:

No, Shaq's stats stayed consistent throughout:

- Kobe shot it 27 times in Game 1 when Shaq got his 34pts.
- Kobe shot it 27 times in Game 2 when Shaq got his 29pts.
- Kobe shot it 13 times in Game 3 while Shaq shot it 14 times.
- Kobe shot it 25 times in Game 4 when Shaq got his 36pts.
- Kobe shot it 21 times in Game 5 when Shaq got his 20pts.

It was the other 3 starters that didn't do shit coupled with Detroit's starting 5. Kobe did what he felt he had to do since Payton, Malone, and Devo weren't doing jack and Shaq was getting worn down. That's why I always say that people that wanna blame Kobe either didn't watch the series or have an issue with Kobe and usually it's the latter.
[Edited 4/10/08 12:53pm]
[Edited 4/10/08 12:53pm]

MuthaFunka said:

Jordan MADE his teammates better.....something Kobe can't claim. The Detroit series proved that.

Graycap23 said:

No one wins a title by themselves. If that were the case, Pete Maravich, Allen Iverson and LeBron James would be wearing rings.

Kobe has demonstrated in the past he didn't play well with others; but he'll get a chance to redeem himself.

I think if Kobe could go back to 2004, he'd have done things differently, and I think he will do things differently in 2008, 2009 and 2010.

MuthaFunka said:

Jordan MADE his teammates better.....something Kobe can't claim. The Detroit series proved that.

MuthaFunka said:

That presumes that there was even a need for an "after Shaq" in several of those games. Shaq was hittin' his shots, and Kobe decided that notwithstanding, he was gonna get his.



What you say about the supporting cast is very true. But Kobe didn't have to gun it because Shaq had the hot hand. The stats you cited prove it. His worst game was the 1st in Detroit, which I suspect had much to do with his conditioning (the point we agree on). Otherwise, Detroit clearly couldn't handle him. And that's WITH Kobe getting most of the touches.

Look, even superstars have bad Finals series. A great example is Magic in '84. Shaq didn't have as many touches and was very effective. Kobe had too many touches and couldn't hit a thing. If Kobe had deferred to Shaq, the Lakers could have avoided the loss. But by not doing so, he guaranteed the defeat.

I give credit where credit's due. The Pistons spread the floor and exposed the Lakers' overall lack of depth and athleticism particularly on the break. They were the best TEAM in basketball and deserved their O'Brien.

But Kobe was the goat of the series. There a lot of HOFers who have been there.


[Edited 4/10/08 14:48pm]

MuthaFunka said:

I watched the whole series, and there are holes in your argument.

What are the shot comparisons? IIRC, Shaq scored more points on less shots. And could have had more. That was the point: the cold hand was taking shots away from the hot hand. Anytime that happens over the course of a series, it's a wrap.

And the stats don't bear your "tired Shaq" theory out. He had one bad game. The rest? Over 20pts, 10 boards (with fewer shots, IIRC). He was hitting close to or above his Finals averages in that series.

And about the supporting cast, you're right, but remember, the reason they were effective is because Shaq opened up the floor. The more Kobe shot, the less attention they paid to Shaq, and the less open space there was for the guys who needed it. And Kobe couldn't handle Teyshaun on D.
[Edited 4/10/08 14:49pm]

namepeace said:

He may get his chance. We shall see.
Hoops is a TEAM game so of course no one can win by themselves. Some are just better at being teammates than others.

Moonbeam said:

You do realize that opinions can be wrong when based off misinformation or false information, or very little knowledge of something, don't you? The latter is certainly the case here. You don't know as much as I do about basketball. It's just that simple. In fact, if you mentioned any of what you said to true hoop analysts, they'd probably laugh at you, especially about Kwame Brown and Brian Grant.

Oh, and Grant averaged 10.9pts with Miami. Now, I'm PRETTY sure that wasn't Kobe's fault, especially since Kobe was never in Miami .

MuthaFunka said:

Wow, are you 5?

Moonbeam said:

That's usually the type of response someone says when they have no real rebuttal and have run out of ammo for their argument - They resort to childish insults. But hey, thanks for playing!

MuthaFunka said:

Except that's exactly the kind of response you've been giving me throughout this whole thread. You are too much.

Then if you truly watched that entire series, you would've seen - like I did - when Shaq got worn down and wasn't effective. You can look at the final stats and think otherwise, but I watched that team from start to finish that whole season and saw Shaq get worn out and call some games in.

Ok, so then Kobe becomes the #1 option. Now, who's the 2nd option? Malone? 5pts a game? Payton? 4pts a game?

The misnomer is thinking that Shaq was in enough shape to ride to a title and that wasn't the case, especially since he only had Kobe as the 2nd option and no other help after that.

MuthaFunka said:

Of course Shaq "Company Time" O'Neal called games in. After 2002, he was calling 1 in every 3 games in during the regular season . . . that is, those games he actually played in. But Shaq wasn't wearing down in the Finals series. He wasn't getting the ball.

If Shaq had averaged 14 a game in that series I might could agree with you. But he was scoring most of his points in the 1st half and still calling for the ball in the 2d. Kobe wasn't getting it to him and Kobe was bringing the ball up most of the time in the 2d half. Phil himself talked about it in his book.

The offense revolved around Shaq and Kobe resisted that at exactly the wrong time.

Graycap23 said:

Bullshit - MJ didn't make anyone "better" and he didn't win shit until he got better players. No player makes his teammates better - that's the biggest load of shit the sports media has ever sold. I've always hated that phrase because it's a lie. Only the player HIMSELF can make HIMSELF better.

Great players make the game EASIER for their teammates, and that's about it.

Graycap23 said:

Bullshit - MJ didn't make anyone "better" and he didn't win shit until he got better players. No player makes his teammates better - that's the biggest load of shit the sports media has ever sold. I've always hated that phrase because it's a lie. Only the player HIMSELF can make HIMSELF better.

Great players make the game EASIER for their teammates, and that's about it.