Moonbeam said:

Ok, so name 5 players to where Kobe's game was detrimental to.

MuthaFunka said:

Lamar Odom
Kwame Brown
Caron Butler
Brian Grant
Kareem Rush...

Moonbeam said:

Odom = Wrong: Dude is KILLIN' it this season.
Kwame Brown = WTF? Kwame's a scrub. You actually make me question your hoop knowledge for that answer!
Caron = Wrong: The triangle system kept him under wraps.
Brian Grant = See Kwame ( )
Kareem Rush = See Kwame ( )

You don't really know hoops, do you?

Anyone who thinks Kareem Rush's career was the result of the supposed detriment of Kobe Bryant has no business talking hoops. None. Simple: How come Rush hasn't done shit since he left L.A.? - I rest my case.

MuthaFunka said:

Why do I "not know hoops" simply because I don't share your opinion? Lamar was tearing it up in Miami before becoming a shell of himself in L.A. He has only started to come out of it this year, and I feel it has more to do with Derek Fisher than anything Kobe is doing.

Kwame Brown is a scrub, but I feel he could have developed into a decent player had he not played with the Lakers.

Kareem Rush became a decent role player with the Bobcats after leaving the Lakers.

And if you think Brian Grant is a scrub, then you are the one who doesn't know hoops.

MuthaFunka said:

Rush's record after LA stands for itself. Nuff Self Case Closed

MuthaFunka said:

His entire TEAM. When they lost 2 the Pistons, KOBE shot them out of that series. Shaq was KILLING the Pistons in the box and what did Kobe do? Start jacking up dumb ass shots all over the court. He was having a Dominic Wilken's moment 4 an entire series.

Moonbeam said:

'beam.

'BEAM.

Odom is a no. 3 option who actually plays better than he's given credit for. He was asked to be a No. 2 and carried that role as best he could for 4 seasons. Now that Gasol has arrived, his impact will be more noticeable.

Michael Jordan and Doug Collins ruined Kwame Brown.

Caron Butler was Kobe's best friend on the team and they went way back.

Brian Grant was done by the time he was traded to LA.

Rush . . . he was never meant to be a star. and Phil might have had more to do with his lack of success in LA than Kobe.

Graycap23 said:

THOU HATH SPOKE THE TRUTH.

Kobe Bryant shot the Lakers out of the 2004 Finals. That much is true. Watch Game 4 of that series.

Moonbeam said:

Because anyone that knows hoops KNOWS the triangle offense hinders most players except for the player it's designed around. When Shaq was the focus, Kobe hated it because it hindered his free-wheeling style of play. Now that it's focused on him (The MJ triangle basically) he loves it. Lamar suffered from it the way Kobe suffered from it under Shaq.

Kwame Brown was a scrub BEFORE he came to L.A., so you really need to chill on that nonsense. Kwane has ONLY himself to blame for why he's a scrub. No one else.

Kareem Rush was a decent player in the triangle. He was a decent player in Charlotte. And he's a decent player in Indy. What's your point? You act as if he blew up after he left the Lakers. He didn't. He can't even start. Nuff said.

And if YOU think B. Grant is a baller then my original assessment of your lack of hoop knowledge was dead on, because Grant hasn't done shit since he got that fat ass contract and then he fucked up his knees. In fact, what did he do in Miami ? Watch the game more because you really need to brush up on your hoops.

Graycap23 said:

Nope. What did the Lakers in that season was Scott Freakin' Williams. Now, those that KNOW...know what I'm talking about. Let's see who knows their shit and can elaborate on what I mean by that.

MuthaFunka said:

MuthaFunka said:

Oh, screw off with your superiority complex. Brian Grant was great in Sacramento and an incredible force in Portland. He was a solid player in Miami, too.

It's attitudes like yours that make me hate talking about sports. You act as if your opinion was implanted by God himself.

Moonbeam said:

Well, you haven't dropped one ounce of proof on any of those players to rebut what I had to say. So, if you call that "superior" then I guess that's the case, but only because you don't realize when someone knows more about hoops than you.

And good fucking grief, Brian Grant wasn't shit in Sactown and he wasn't shit after Portland. Seriously, watch the game a bit more carefully.

MuthaFunka said:

There's no way to prove an opinion. I believe all of the players I mentioned either regressed (Odom, Grant, Butler, Kwame) or failed to develop as they should have (Rush, also Kwame) while with the Lakers.

As for Grant, I suppose consistently having a PER over 15 doesn't go for much these days.

Moonbeam said:

You do realize that opinions can be wrong when based off misinformation or false information, or very little knowledge of something, don't you? The latter is certainly the case here. You don't know as much as I do about basketball. It's just that simple. In fact, if you mentioned any of what you said to true hoop analysts, they'd probably laugh at you, especially about Kwame Brown and Brian Grant.

Oh, and Grant averaged 10.9pts with Miami. Now, I'm PRETTY sure that wasn't Kobe's fault, especially since Kobe was never in Miami .

MuthaFunka said:

Lol.....MF, Kobe blew that series. Plain and simple.

Graycap23 said:

LOL! NOPE! When Scott Bitch-Ass Williams fell on Karl Malone's knee, that was the END of the Lakers at that very point. Malone was never the same and it showed in the Finals when he couldn't do anything. Even with the Boy Wonder's shooting spree, they STILL could have beaten them if Malone was healthy.

But the Lakers couldn't overcome the best starting 5 in the NBA anyway. Shaq looked old and slow. Payton didn't like the triangle because it took the rock out of his hand. Malone was hurt. Fox was old and Devean George was a scrub. The impact of Kobe's legal issues loomed over that team as well. BUT - Had Malone been healthy - he was the glue for that team that season - they would have been able to beat the Pistons.

MuthaFunka said:

Interesting that the Lakers won 3 titles with THAT same basic team before Malone showed up. Hummmmm.....

Graycap23 said:

LOL! AND Shaq was in MUCH better health/shape in those 3 titles. Shaq's decline is why they didn't make it 4 or 5 straight. They had to go out and get some help in the form of Malone and GP. C'mon, playa! Ya steppin' into territory that I will trump all as far as the Lakers go! I wrote and covered the Lakers for a sports website from 2000 to 2006!

MuthaFunka said:

If Malone had been healthy -- he was a key reason they were able to overcome the Spures -- you have a point. They'd have fared better with Malone.

But AS THEY WERE, Kobe cost'em the series.

In Game 4, Shaq was unstoppable in the first half. Then Kobe decided he needed to shoot. And shoot. Over Tayshaun Prince (who locked him down that series) and double-teams which EXPECTED Kobe. Shaq could have gotten them back to LA down 3-2 at worst in Game 4 and Kobe shut the door.

It was that way the whole series. Kobe made the Pistons' job even easier by eliminating Shaq from the equation almost by himself; he was the Pistons' defensive MVP.

MuthaFunka said:

Shaq cost'em a 4-peat.

But having covered the Lakers, you know what happened in Game 4 in the '04 Finals. And Game 4 was the series.

namepeace said:

But see, you're only looking at Game 4. The whole series - Shaq was held down by the Pistons swarm D and 4-time DPOY Ben Wallace had just enough in his back pocket to body-up Shaq. In fact, if it wasn't for Kobe's heroics in Game 2, they would have been swept. Kobe went shot-crazy, yes. But Shaq wasn't "Shaq" and Malone wasn't "Malone" and that starting 5 - you GOTTA give Detroit their propers - was a bitch to deal with.

namepeace said:

No, Game 4 was the beginning of the end and the 1st time ever a team swept all 3 games in the 2-3-2 format. That series was over after Game 1. Trust and believe. You could see it in the Lakers' faces and see it in the Pistons eyes.

Great Class Indeed!!!

Hakeem is the head of this class in my eyes, then Adrian Dantley, and Patrick Ewing.

namepeace said:

That's my point.

MuthaFunka said:

Neither Shaq nor Malone were what they used to be in that series, or that season.

And Detroit earned that series. They vindicated themselves as a great team even more the next year, when they took the Spurs to 7 and nearly beat them in San An.

But Game 4 was the DECISIVE game. It was over after that. Instead of 2-2, LA goes down 1-3. And Shaq could have gotten them that game.

Game 1 was a pyrrhic victory for the Lakers because it likely caused Kobe to believe he was hot.

And if you look at the stats over the course of the series, Shaq was shooting a pretty high average, indicating that even though the Pistons' played him hard, he was still effective. And when the Pistons realized Kobe was going to shoot at all costs, they didn't have to worry about Shaq as much anymore.

I give credit to Detroit, but Kobe killed the Lakers in that series. A series that they could have won or at least extended, with a declining Shaq and without Karl Malone.

namepeace said:

Naw, it was still the Pistons that set the tone. Kobe shot crazy because he didn't have any other choice after Shaq. Who was left to "go to"?

Game 1 - Shaq had 34/11 and Malone had 4/11. Malone's 4pts is what killed the Lakers and that pretty much set the tone for them. Payton had 3pts and Devo had 5pts.

Game 2 - Shaq had 29/9, Malone had 9/9, Payton 2, Devo had 7.

Game 3 - The Lakers (for the series as well) were completely done: Shaq had 14, Payton had 6, Devo had 8, and Mailman had 5.

Game 4 - Shaq had a monster game with 36/20, Payton had 8, Malone had 2, Devo had 5.

Game 5 - Shaq had 20/8, Payton had 2pts, Devo had 4pts, and Slava Medvedenko had 10. Malone = DNP.

So, seriously, even with Shaq - Kobe had no choice but to gun it because no one else came to play for that series. Malone was hurt and ineffective, Devo is a scrub, and Payton played like a scrub.

MuthaFunka said:

Shaq's "stats" went 2 hell after Kobe decided that HE should by MVP of the series. That simple.

Graycap23 said:

No, Shaq's stats stayed consistent throughout:

- Kobe shot it 27 times in Game 1 when Shaq got his 34pts.
- Kobe shot it 27 times in Game 2 when Shaq got his 29pts.
- Kobe shot it 13 times in Game 3 while Shaq shot it 14 times.
- Kobe shot it 25 times in Game 4 when Shaq got his 36pts.
- Kobe shot it 21 times in Game 5 when Shaq got his 20pts.

It was the other 3 starters that didn't do shit coupled with Detroit's starting 5. Kobe did what he felt he had to do since Payton, Malone, and Devo weren't doing jack and Shaq was getting worn down. That's why I always say that people that wanna blame Kobe either didn't watch the series or have an issue with Kobe and usually it's the latter.
[Edited 4/10/08 12:53pm]
[Edited 4/10/08 12:53pm]

MuthaFunka said:

Now u know very well that stats can "say" what ever u wish. I watched those games very closely. I KNOW the deal.....