Graycap23 said:


I always envisioned a scenario like the Lakers had in the 80's, when Kareem was the first option and the "Cap" until Magic was asked (by Riley before the '86-'87 season) to become the team leader and Cap ceded that to him (generally).

I always thought that the early 00's would belong to Shaq and the late 00's to Kobe, and they'd win at least 6 O'Briens and split a few MVP's apiece. Sadly, neither of them recognized what they had in each other.

They were arguably the best inside-outside duo in the history of professional basketball. All they needed was a decent supporting cast and they'd have run the decade. But they each cost the team: Shaq in '02-'03, and Kobe in '03-'04.
They each had a role to play in the breakup.

And this is coming from a die-hard Laker fan and rehabilitated Anti-Kobe guy.

I guess we can see who was more important. Shaq has 1 title and could have had another. Kobe has NOT gotton out of the 1st round of the playoffs.

Graycap23 said:

Of course, Shaq got that title thanks mostly to D-Wade.

Shaq has 1 title and could have had another. Kobe has NOT gotton out of the 1st round of the playoffs.

AlexdeParis said:

D-wade wad there before Shaq. No titles. After Shaq: no titles.

Graycap23 said:

Undeniable, but the verdict won't be final for another few years. Plus, the Shaq Trade left the cupboard bare for a few years. The FO didn't help matters when they traded Caron Butler for Kwame Brown. In contrast, Shaq was traded to a team with some weapons in Miami.

The stats don't lie. A team with Big starting in the pivot has been to six Finals since 1995, including 4 Finals and 3 titles in 8 seasons with LA. That's why I hated that trade.

But the final word won't come for the next few years, now that Bryant has Gasol (strangely enough, the FO redeemed its bad Kwame Brown trade with a great Kwame Brown trade for Gasol), Bynum, D-Fish (for a little while) and a young, growing supporting cast.

LA could win a title or two during that time which could change the verdict.

"could" being the operative word.
[Edited 4/9/08 13:35pm]

MuthaFunka said:

Damn shame they broke that team up. Didn't they (the team) learn anything from the Bulls breaking up a championship team?

Graycap23 said:

The Lakers broke up for different reasons than the Bulls though.

I dig that. So far, Shaq 1, Kobe 0.

Graycap23 said:

And? The run to that title was primarily due to exceptional play by Wade.

AlexdeParis said:

So if the Suns win it this year, everyone but Shaq will get the credit. Interesting.

Graycap23 said:

No, what's interesting is the way you're putting words in my mouth.

Shaq was the first option for all 3 titles he won with the Lakers. During his title run with the Heat, he was clearly option #2.

MuthaFunka said:

The result is the SAME.

Graycap23 said:

As it always is in a breakup.

AlexdeParis said:

Lol.....maybe that did not "read" correctly. There was no intention 2 put words into your mouth.

The intent is this, option 1 or option 2, if winning follows u where every u go, u DESERVE and have EARNED the credit 4 it.

Graycap23 said:

Oh, OK. Don't get me wrong, Shaq obviously deserves a lot of credit for being a champion. However, I think roles are important. For example, Luc Longley has as many rings as Kobe does. Obviously, they aren't comparable. Shaq wasn't the dominant force that series that he was earlier in his career. A big reason the Heat won the title is the defensive intensity that picked up when Zo replaced him.

But again, Shaq's still a superstar.
[Edited 4/9/08 14:18pm]

AlexdeParis said:

I don't disagree with u.....but I don't believe they win that title without Shaq.

Graycap23 said:

Well, me neither. So we're in complete agreement.

AlexdeParis said:

Even a debilitated Shaq is like a great defensive lineman who eats up space and occupies double-teams to free up space on the floor for everyone else. That's what he did for Wade in 2006.

Graycap23 said:

Well, me neither. So we're in complete agreement.

Moonbeam said:

See, that's why I'm here - to clear things up for those that just speculate and believe what they see from the media. Kobe was 1 PART of the cause from a 4 part crew that ended that title juggernaut:

1 - Kobe: He wanted to be the man and didn't like the constraints of the triangle that held him back.

2 - Shaq: He couldn't handle someone else in the limelight with him (Penny before Kobe) and he's one of the most jealous players in the history of the game who also has the 2nd biggest ego ever (behind Wilt) - all which add up to a volatile mix when he feels slighted.

3 - Phil Jackson: He would call Kobe out with his head games he'd play, even once accusing Kobe of purposelly throwing a HIGH SCHOOL game just so he could win it at the end of the game.

4 - Jerry Buss: He wanted the old 80s style of play that won 5 titles and he didn't like the plodding triangle, so someone had to go - Phil & Shaq.

So, to blame it on JUST Kobe is weak and petty, and uneducated on the variables that led to that breakup.

Pippen and Grant didn't man-up their games until the early 90s and they were finally able to get past the Pistons, but before that, MJ got the exact same criticism as Kobe got. The only difference - People dislike Kobe MAINLY because of his resemblence (game-wise and mannerisms) to the beloved MJ, who could do no wrong no matter what.

Kobe only looks out for himself. You may have an argument that he is among the most talented players ever, but that doesn't make him one of the best. He has not proven that he can utilize his talent in a way that gives his team the best chance to win. Until he does, he does not belong in the GOAT discussion.

namepeace said:

Wait until the 2008 playoffs.....

Moonbeam said:

Kobe's been part of three championship teams, has had big playoff games and will win the MVP. And he's not done. Once his career's over, he will be remembered as one of the game's greatest. Does he act like a punk? Yeah, but so did Jordan. He wasn't exactly a good guy either.

uPtoWnNY said:

I think Kobe already is one of the greatest; love or hate him (I've done both), how could he NOT be based on the resume you laid out?

You're right, though, with a lot of his career ahead, the only question left is "The Comparison."
[Edited 4/9/08 16:30pm]

Graycap23 said:

Is that a prediction?

MuthaFunka said:

While those other variables may be present (and I don't for a minute belive that ANYONE has a bigger ego than Kobe), Kobe's antics throughout his career lend validity to the argument that he is one selfish SOB. Throwing Shaq under the bus when he caught caught with his pants down in Colorado, throwing his teammates under the bus when they lose in the playoffs, issuing demands to Kupchack, saying he'd rather play on Pluto than with the Lakers, only to change his mind, and all of this in front of the media.

Kobe only looks out for himself. You may have an argument that he is among the most talented players ever, but that doesn't make him one of the best. He has not proven that he can utilize his talent in a way that gives his team the best chance to win. Until he does, he does not belong in the GOAT discussion.

namepeace said:

Among the most talented? Maybe. Among the greatest? Not yet. These past five years or so have really tarnished his image as an all-time great candidate, in my opinion.

Moonbeam said:

That's because you're taking it personal and not looking at logically from a performance standpoint. One should never mix their emotions with reason and rationale because their judgment will usually end up clouded.

Moonbeam said:

If you think Kobe's ego is bigger than Shaq's then you just simply don't know hoops. Period.

Shaq has thrown EVERY SINGLE PLAYER/COACH UNDER THE BUS:

- Penny
- Kobe
- Phil
- Kupcak
- Dr. Buss

And JUST the other week:

- Pat Riley
- Wade
- Chris Quinn
- Ricky Davis

That's Shaq's M.O. = He just HAS to talk shit about the last franchise he played for or else he isn't complete in his mind. So miss me with this "Kobe's ego is bigger than Shaq's". You should really pay more attention to the Big Cactus.