MsLegs said:

As a Lakers fan, believe me, I have love for Big. But I think as Big got Bigger, his productivity waned. That's a factor in my original statement.
[Edited 4/8/08 21:08pm]

Moonbeam said:

The same exact thing was constantly said about MJ when he didn't have a team around him, so it's uber-hypocritical for people to try and say it about Kobe. And then I laugh at people that say he needs to get his teammates involved. Well, have you seen his teammates BEFORE Gasol arrived and Bynum improved? Again, the same thing they said about MJ until Pippen and Horace came around.

Graycap23 said:

The exact same as MJ's concern of being ranked ahead of Magic and Bird.

MuthaFunka said:

That's utter bullshit. Kobe HAD a team around him in LA, but he wasn't satisfied unless he could be the main attraction. I still believe he drove Shaq out of town, and after he made the team bend over backwards for him, he nearly signed with the Clippers.

As for Jordan, Pippen and Grant were around for the 87-88 season- they didn't win until the 90-91 season because Jordan needed to learn how to utilize his talent in a way that most benefitted the team. Kobe utilizes his talent in a way that most benefits HIM.

MuthaFunka said:

Precisely.

MsLegs said:

Hummm.....last I checked. Jordan was better player and a bigger WINNER than both of those guys. Better defensively.....better offensively.

I'll just jump in and say this is my all-time favorite moment in basketball (other than seeing Zo when a title, of course):



I was running late for an appointment and I was just about to walk out of the house. Something made me stay for a split second longer and I got to see that amazing comeback!

Reggie was always a love-him-or-hate-him player. I'm not a Pacers fan, but I've always loved Miller. The way he taunted Spike Lee and called out John Starks for choking in the interview...

Graycap23 said:

'Cap, when MJ started in the league, Magic had already won 2 and Bird 2. By the time he won his first title, they had 8 between them. MJ used that as motivation to go on his run. Why do you think he threw up 6 fingers so joyfully upon winning in 1998? Because there'd be no question (if there was one by that time) that he was the best of his generation (and the GOAT) after winning more than Magic.

MuthaFunka said:

One thing I'll add, M-Funk . . . each of Kobe's teammates improved remarkably from '07 to '08. Vlad Rad, Farmar, Vujacic and Turiaf. Walton might be the only one in the rotation who regressed.

namepeace said:

I know.....imagine how many titles Jordan would have if he played with the same type of teammates Bird and magic played with.

Moonbeam said:

100% Correct.

Moonbeam said:

See, that's why I'm here - to clear things up for those that just speculate and believe what they see from the media. Kobe was 1 PART of the cause from a 4 part crew that ended that title juggernaut:

1 - Kobe: He wanted to be the man and didn't like the constraints of the triangle that held him back.

2 - Shaq: He couldn't handle someone else in the limelight with him (Penny before Kobe) and he's one of the most jealous players in the history of the game who also has the 2nd biggest ego ever (behind Wilt) - all which add up to a volatile mix when he feels slighted.

3 - Phil Jackson: He would call Kobe out with his head games he'd play, even once accusing Kobe of purposelly throwing a HIGH SCHOOL game just so he could win it at the end of the game.

4 - Jerry Buss: He wanted the old 80s style of play that won 5 titles and he didn't like the plodding triangle, so someone had to go - Phil & Shaq.

So, to blame it on JUST Kobe is weak and petty, and uneducated on the variables that led to that breakup.

Pippen and Grant didn't man-up their games until the early 90s and they were finally able to get past the Pistons, but before that, MJ got the exact same criticism as Kobe got. The only difference - People dislike Kobe MAINLY because of his resemblence (game-wise and mannerisms) to the beloved MJ, who could do no wrong no matter what.

Graycap23 said:

But that wasn't the point. The point was that MJ had the same drive to be better than Larry and Maj that Kobe has to be better than MJ. Don't let those MJ-colored glasses cloud what you know and see, playa.

namepeace said:

Agreed.

MuthaFunka said:

I would agree with u if I believed that is what drives Kobe but it is NOT. Kobe had a TEAM that could have contended 4 titles 4 a while. What did he do? Blow it up.

Graycap23 said:

Nope. It wasn't just Kobe. As I posted earlier:

Graycap23 said:

That would have been illegal.

He might have won more titles than Bird and Magic COMBINED had 1) he not retired early, and 2) the Bulls' FO didn't get "strange with the change" after the '98 season.

MuthaFunka said:[quote]

Graycap23 said:

I don't disagree with any of that.....but if Kobe wanted that team 2 stay together, it WOULD have. My sources come a lot closer than from the media.

namepeace said:

Even being a fan of the Bulls.....that might have become very stale 4 the league. I would have been happy though.

Graycap23 said:

I think it did stagnate the league, because there was no dominant counterpoint to the Bulls. There were some very, very good Western teams in the 90's, but no one with a true closer to counter (not match, which was impossible) MJ.

J, Bird and Magic always had each other to worry about. MJ was always trying the break through, and finally did when those stars and their teams got too old or retired.

He was a wonder to watch, though.

namepeace said:

No doubt. Good thing I have all of DVD's of those years. It's the ONLY way I'll get 2 see the Bulls winning any time soon.

Graycap23 said:

I have that Bulls set and the Lakers' set as well.

namepeace said:

I need 2 pick up that Laker set.....and the 1985 Bears set. It's the ONLY way 4 me 2 see the Chicago teams winning. They STINK in real life.

Graycap23 said:

You're both right.

I put it all on Kobe at one time. But research indicates that a lot of folks shared blame. M-Funka's estimations on point. But 'Cap, what you said is ALSO true. I think the drama revolved around Kobe's impending free agency, and Kobe could have kept it together.

Last summer, though, Kobe said that he would have talked with Shaq more if he had to do it all over again. And Shaq softened on Kobe as well. Phil's adjusted his Kobe approach, and Buss seems to take his stars' comments less personally. Everyone learned and moved on.

The fall of the Bling Dynasty will be a blot on Bryant's resume, but he shouldn't bear the full weight of that cross.

namepeace said:

All true.....but believe me, Kobe was the MAIN character in this tragic turn of events. Ego is a KILLER. It seems everyone's EGO got in the way, but it still took a KEY figure 2 shatter the house of cards.

Graycap23 said:

It wasn't up to Kobe though, because Shaq was gonna opt out because the 2 couldn't co-exist. Now, had the both of them got together and came to a compromise, then maybe - But Buss still wanted an uptempo style of game and was growing weary of the triangle. Trust and believe, my 3 sources are almost from the horses' mouths with those 4 parties involved.

MuthaFunka said:

I hear ya. Mine 2.

namepeace said:

Bingo. Had both Kobe and Shaq been more adult and mature about all of this, then Buss's want for an uptempo style of play wouldn't have mattered as long as they were winning titles.
[Edited 4/9/08 12:28pm]

MuthaFunka said:

Damn shame they broke that team up. Didn't they (the team) learn anything from the Bulls breaking up a championship team?

Graycap23 said:


I always envisioned a scenario like the Lakers had in the 80's, when Kareem was the first option and the "Cap" until Magic was asked (by Riley before the '86-'87 season) to become the team leader and Cap ceded that to him (generally).

I always thought that the early 00's would belong to Shaq and the late 00's to Kobe, and they'd win at least 6 O'Briens and split a few MVP's apiece. Sadly, neither of them recognized what they had in each other.

They were arguably the best inside-outside duo in the history of professional basketball. All they needed was a decent supporting cast and they'd have run the decade. But they each cost the team: Shaq in '02-'03, and Kobe in '03-'04.
They each had a role to play in the breakup.

And this is coming from a die-hard Laker fan and rehabilitated Anti-Kobe guy.