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Reply #90 posted 04/08/08 9:08pm

namepeace

MsLegs said:

MuthaFunka said:



If Shaq played in Wilt's era, he would have put up similiar numbers. There hasn't been a player of Shaq's size, quicks, and strength ever. Not even Wilt was as "large" as Shaq.

MJ and Kobe would've had a harder time than Shaq, but they could have done about 40 a night for a season.

nod Exactly. For anyone to even attempt to compare Shaq and Wilt is assinine. This is do to the level of their ability and finese in the game.


As a Lakers fan, believe me, I have love for Big. But I think as Big got Bigger, his productivity waned. That's a factor in my original statement.
[Edited 4/8/08 21:08pm]
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Reply #91 posted 04/08/08 11:05pm

MuthaFunka

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Moonbeam said:

Kobe is NOT one of the greatest of all time, in my opinion. His selfish ass can score all of those points, but look at what it does to his team. That 53-point game recently was a HOME LOSS to the MEMPHIS GRIZZLIES (the worst road team up to that point). He'll never win another championship until he realizes that he doesn't pea eau d'cologne and consistently involves his teammates.


The same exact thing was constantly said about MJ when he didn't have a team around him, so it's uber-hypocritical for people to try and say it about Kobe. And then I laugh at people that say he needs to get his teammates involved. Well, have you seen his teammates BEFORE Gasol arrived and Bynum improved? Again, the same thing they said about MJ until Pippen and Horace came around.
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Reply #92 posted 04/08/08 11:06pm

MuthaFunka

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Graycap23 said:

Moonbeam said:



I'm not convinced. We'll see how the playoffs shape up.

Kobe's ONLY concern is being ranked ahead of Mj.


The exact same as MJ's concern of being ranked ahead of Magic and Bird. cool
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Reply #93 posted 04/08/08 11:58pm

Moonbeam

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MuthaFunka said:

Moonbeam said:

Kobe is NOT one of the greatest of all time, in my opinion. His selfish ass can score all of those points, but look at what it does to his team. That 53-point game recently was a HOME LOSS to the MEMPHIS GRIZZLIES (the worst road team up to that point). He'll never win another championship until he realizes that he doesn't pea eau d'cologne and consistently involves his teammates.


The same exact thing was constantly said about MJ when he didn't have a team around him, so it's uber-hypocritical for people to try and say it about Kobe. And then I laugh at people that say he needs to get his teammates involved. Well, have you seen his teammates BEFORE Gasol arrived and Bynum improved? Again, the same thing they said about MJ until Pippen and Horace came around.


That's utter bullshit. Kobe HAD a team around him in LA, but he wasn't satisfied unless he could be the main attraction. I still believe he drove Shaq out of town, and after he made the team bend over backwards for him, he nearly signed with the Clippers.

As for Jordan, Pippen and Grant were around for the 87-88 season- they didn't win until the 90-91 season because Jordan needed to learn how to utilize his talent in a way that most benefitted the team. Kobe utilizes his talent in a way that most benefits HIM.
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Reply #94 posted 04/09/08 2:37am

MsLegs

MuthaFunka said:

Graycap23 said:


Kobe's ONLY concern is being ranked ahead of Mj.


The exact same as MJ's concern of being ranked ahead of Magic and Bird. cool

nod Precisely.
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Reply #95 posted 04/09/08 4:28am

Graycap23

MsLegs said:

MuthaFunka said:



The exact same as MJ's concern of being ranked ahead of Magic and Bird. cool

nod Precisely.

Hummm.....last I checked. Jordan was better player and a bigger WINNER than both of those guys. Better defensively.....better offensively.
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Reply #96 posted 04/09/08 5:47am

AlexdeParis

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I'll just jump in and say this is my all-time favorite moment in basketball (other than seeing Zo when a title, of course):



I was running late for an appointment and I was just about to walk out of the house. Something made me stay for a split second longer and I got to see that amazing comeback! woot!

Reggie was always a love-him-or-hate-him player. I'm not a Pacers fan, but I've always loved Miller. The way he taunted Spike Lee and called out John Starks for choking in the interview... lol
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Reply #97 posted 04/09/08 8:09am

namepeace

Graycap23 said:

MsLegs said:


nod Precisely.

Hummm.....last I checked. Jordan was better player and a bigger WINNER than both of those guys. Better defensively.....better offensively.


'Cap, when MJ started in the league, Magic had already won 2 and Bird 2. By the time he won his first title, they had 8 between them. MJ used that as motivation to go on his run. Why do you think he threw up 6 fingers so joyfully upon winning in 1998? Because there'd be no question (if there was one by that time) that he was the best of his generation (and the GOAT) after winning more than Magic.
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Reply #98 posted 04/09/08 8:11am

namepeace

MuthaFunka said:

Moonbeam said:

Kobe is NOT one of the greatest of all time, in my opinion. His selfish ass can score all of those points, but look at what it does to his team. That 53-point game recently was a HOME LOSS to the MEMPHIS GRIZZLIES (the worst road team up to that point). He'll never win another championship until he realizes that he doesn't pea eau d'cologne and consistently involves his teammates.


The same exact thing was constantly said about MJ when he didn't have a team around him, so it's uber-hypocritical for people to try and say it about Kobe. And then I laugh at people that say he needs to get his teammates involved. Well, have you seen his teammates BEFORE Gasol arrived and Bynum improved? Again, the same thing they said about MJ until Pippen and Horace came around.


One thing I'll add, M-Funk . . . each of Kobe's teammates improved remarkably from '07 to '08. Vlad Rad, Farmar, Vujacic and Turiaf. Walton might be the only one in the rotation who regressed.
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Reply #99 posted 04/09/08 8:23am

Graycap23

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:


Hummm.....last I checked. Jordan was better player and a bigger WINNER than both of those guys. Better defensively.....better offensively.


'Cap, when MJ started in the league, Magic had already won 2 and Bird 2. By the time he won his first title, they had 8 between them. MJ used that as motivation to go on his run. Why do you think he threw up 6 fingers so joyfully upon winning in 1998? Because there'd be no question (if there was one by that time) that he was the best of his generation (and the GOAT) after winning more than Magic.

I know.....imagine how many titles Jordan would have if he played with the same type of teammates Bird and magic played with.
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Reply #100 posted 04/09/08 9:04am

Graycap23

Moonbeam said:



That's utter bullshit. Kobe HAD a team around him in LA, but he wasn't satisfied unless he could be the main attraction. I still believe he drove Shaq out of town, and after he made the team bend over backwards for him, he nearly signed with the Clippers.

As for Jordan, Pippen and Grant were around for the 87-88 season- they didn't win until the 90-91 season because Jordan needed to learn how to utilize his talent in a way that most benefitted the team. Kobe utilizes his talent in a way that most benefits HIM.

100% Correct.
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Reply #101 posted 04/09/08 9:30am

MuthaFunka

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Moonbeam said:

MuthaFunka said:



The same exact thing was constantly said about MJ when he didn't have a team around him, so it's uber-hypocritical for people to try and say it about Kobe. And then I laugh at people that say he needs to get his teammates involved. Well, have you seen his teammates BEFORE Gasol arrived and Bynum improved? Again, the same thing they said about MJ until Pippen and Horace came around.


That's utter bullshit. Kobe HAD a team around him in LA, but he wasn't satisfied unless he could be the main attraction. I still believe he drove Shaq out of town, and after he made the team bend over backwards for him, he nearly signed with the Clippers.

As for Jordan, Pippen and Grant were around for the 87-88 season- they didn't win until the 90-91 season because Jordan needed to learn how to utilize his talent in a way that most benefitted the team. Kobe utilizes his talent in a way that most benefits HIM.


See, that's why I'm here - to clear things up for those that just speculate and believe what they see from the media. Kobe was 1 PART of the cause from a 4 part crew that ended that title juggernaut:

1 - Kobe: He wanted to be the man and didn't like the constraints of the triangle that held him back.

2 - Shaq: He couldn't handle someone else in the limelight with him (Penny before Kobe) and he's one of the most jealous players in the history of the game who also has the 2nd biggest ego ever (behind Wilt) - all which add up to a volatile mix when he feels slighted.

3 - Phil Jackson: He would call Kobe out with his head games he'd play, even once accusing Kobe of purposelly throwing a HIGH SCHOOL game just so he could win it at the end of the game.

4 - Jerry Buss: He wanted the old 80s style of play that won 5 titles and he didn't like the plodding triangle, so someone had to go - Phil & Shaq.

So, to blame it on JUST Kobe is weak and petty, and uneducated on the variables that led to that breakup.

Pippen and Grant didn't man-up their games until the early 90s and they were finally able to get past the Pistons, but before that, MJ got the exact same criticism as Kobe got. The only difference - People dislike Kobe MAINLY because of his resemblence (game-wise and mannerisms) to the beloved MJ, who could do no wrong no matter what.
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Reply #102 posted 04/09/08 9:32am

MuthaFunka

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Graycap23 said:

MsLegs said:


nod Precisely.

Hummm.....last I checked. Jordan was better player and a bigger WINNER than both of those guys. Better defensively.....better offensively.


But that wasn't the point. The point was that MJ had the same drive to be better than Larry and Maj that Kobe has to be better than MJ. Don't let those MJ-colored glasses cloud what you know and see, playa. cool
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Reply #103 posted 04/09/08 9:32am

MuthaFunka

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namepeace said:

MuthaFunka said:



The same exact thing was constantly said about MJ when he didn't have a team around him, so it's uber-hypocritical for people to try and say it about Kobe. And then I laugh at people that say he needs to get his teammates involved. Well, have you seen his teammates BEFORE Gasol arrived and Bynum improved? Again, the same thing they said about MJ until Pippen and Horace came around.


One thing I'll add, M-Funk . . . each of Kobe's teammates improved remarkably from '07 to '08. Vlad Rad, Farmar, Vujacic and Turiaf. Walton might be the only one in the rotation who regressed.


Agreed.
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Reply #104 posted 04/09/08 10:41am

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:

Graycap23 said:


Hummm.....last I checked. Jordan was better player and a bigger WINNER than both of those guys. Better defensively.....better offensively.


But that wasn't the point. The point was that MJ had the same drive to be better than Larry and Maj that Kobe has to be better than MJ. Don't let those MJ-colored glasses cloud what you know and see, playa. cool

I would agree with u if I believed that is what drives Kobe but it is NOT. Kobe had a TEAM that could have contended 4 titles 4 a while. What did he do? Blow it up.
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Reply #105 posted 04/09/08 11:54am

MuthaFunka

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Graycap23 said:

MuthaFunka said:



But that wasn't the point. The point was that MJ had the same drive to be better than Larry and Maj that Kobe has to be better than MJ. Don't let those MJ-colored glasses cloud what you know and see, playa. cool

I would agree with u if I believed that is what drives Kobe but it is NOT. Kobe had a TEAM that could have contended 4 titles 4 a while. What did he do? Blow it up.


Nope. It wasn't just Kobe. As I posted earlier:

See, that's why I'm here - to clear things up for those that just speculate and believe what they see from the media. Kobe was 1 PART of the cause from a 4 part crew that ended that title juggernaut:

1 - Kobe: He wanted to be the man and didn't like the constraints of the triangle that held him back.

2 - Shaq: He couldn't handle someone else in the limelight with him (Penny before Kobe) and he's one of the most jealous players in the history of the game who also has the 2nd biggest ego ever (behind Wilt) - all which add up to a volatile mix when he feels slighted.

3 - Phil Jackson: He would call Kobe out with his head games he'd play, even once accusing Kobe of purposelly throwing a HIGH SCHOOL game just so he could win it at the end of the game.

4 - Jerry Buss: He wanted the old 80s style of play that won 5 titles and he didn't like the plodding triangle, so someone had to go - Phil & Shaq.
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Reply #106 posted 04/09/08 11:57am

namepeace

Graycap23 said:

namepeace said:



'Cap, when MJ started in the league, Magic had already won 2 and Bird 2. By the time he won his first title, they had 8 between them. MJ used that as motivation to go on his run. Why do you think he threw up 6 fingers so joyfully upon winning in 1998? Because there'd be no question (if there was one by that time) that he was the best of his generation (and the GOAT) after winning more than Magic.

I know.....imagine how many titles Jordan would have if he played with the same type of teammates Bird and magic played with.


That would have been illegal.

He might have won more titles than Bird and Magic COMBINED had 1) he not retired early, and 2) the Bulls' FO didn't get "strange with the change" after the '98 season.
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Reply #107 posted 04/09/08 12:02pm

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:[quote]

Graycap23 said:



Nope. It wasn't just Kobe. As I posted earlier:

See, that's why I'm here - to clear things up for those that just speculate and believe what they see from the media. Kobe was 1 PART of the cause from a 4 part crew that ended that title juggernaut:

1 - Kobe: He wanted to be the man and didn't like the constraints of the triangle that held him back.

2 - Shaq: He couldn't handle someone else in the limelight with him (Penny before Kobe) and he's one of the most jealous players in the history of the game who also has the 2nd biggest ego ever (behind Wilt) - all which add up to a volatile mix when he feels slighted.

3 - Phil Jackson: He would call Kobe out with his head games he'd play, even once accusing Kobe of purposelly throwing a HIGH SCHOOL game just so he could win it at the end of the game.

4 - Jerry Buss: He wanted the old 80s style of play that won 5 titles and he didn't like the plodding triangle, so someone had to go - Phil & Shaq.

I don't disagree with any of that.....but if Kobe wanted that team 2 stay together, it WOULD have. My sources come a lot closer than from the media.
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Reply #108 posted 04/09/08 12:03pm

Graycap23

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:


I know.....imagine how many titles Jordan would have if he played with the same type of teammates Bird and magic played with.


That would have been illegal.

He might have won more titles than Bird and Magic COMBINED had 1) he not retired early, and 2) the Bulls' FO didn't get "strange with the change" after the '98 season.

Even being a fan of the Bulls.....that might have become very stale 4 the league. I would have been happy though. lol
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Reply #109 posted 04/09/08 12:07pm

namepeace

Graycap23 said:

namepeace said:



That would have been illegal.

He might have won more titles than Bird and Magic COMBINED had 1) he not retired early, and 2) the Bulls' FO didn't get "strange with the change" after the '98 season.

Even being a fan of the Bulls.....that might have become very stale 4 the league. I would have been happy though. lol


I think it did stagnate the league, because there was no dominant counterpoint to the Bulls. There were some very, very good Western teams in the 90's, but no one with a true closer to counter (not match, which was impossible) MJ.

J, Bird and Magic always had each other to worry about. MJ was always trying the break through, and finally did when those stars and their teams got too old or retired.

He was a wonder to watch, though.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

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Reply #110 posted 04/09/08 12:10pm

Graycap23

namepeace said:


He was a wonder to watch, though.


No doubt. Good thing I have all of DVD's of those years. It's the ONLY way I'll get 2 see the Bulls winning any time soon.
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Reply #111 posted 04/09/08 12:13pm

namepeace

Graycap23 said:

namepeace said:


He was a wonder to watch, though.


No doubt. Good thing I have all of DVD's of those years. It's the ONLY way I'll get 2 see the Bulls winning any time soon.


I have that Bulls set and the Lakers' set as well.
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Reply #112 posted 04/09/08 12:14pm

Graycap23

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:



No doubt. Good thing I have all of DVD's of those years. It's the ONLY way I'll get 2 see the Bulls winning any time soon.


I have that Bulls set and the Lakers' set as well.

I need 2 pick up that Laker set.....and the 1985 Bears set. It's the ONLY way 4 me 2 see the Chicago teams winning. They STINK in real life.
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Reply #113 posted 04/09/08 12:21pm

namepeace

Graycap23 said:

MuthaFunka said:

Kobe was 1 PART of the cause from a 4 part crew that ended that title juggernaut:

1 - Kobe: He wanted to be the man and didn't like the constraints of the triangle that held him back.

2 - Shaq: He couldn't handle someone else in the limelight with him (Penny before Kobe) and he's one of the most jealous players in the history of the game who also has the 2nd biggest ego ever (behind Wilt) - all which add up to a volatile mix when he feels slighted.

3 - Phil Jackson: He would call Kobe out with his head games he'd play, even once accusing Kobe of purposelly throwing a HIGH SCHOOL game just so he could win it at the end of the game.

4 - Jerry Buss: He wanted the old 80s style of play that won 5 titles and he didn't like the plodding triangle, so someone had to go - Phil & Shaq.


I don't disagree with any of that.....but if Kobe wanted that team 2 stay together, it WOULD have. My sources come a lot closer than from the media.


You're both right.

I put it all on Kobe at one time. But research indicates that a lot of folks shared blame. M-Funka's estimations on point. But 'Cap, what you said is ALSO true. I think the drama revolved around Kobe's impending free agency, and Kobe could have kept it together.

Last summer, though, Kobe said that he would have talked with Shaq more if he had to do it all over again. And Shaq softened on Kobe as well. Phil's adjusted his Kobe approach, and Buss seems to take his stars' comments less personally. Everyone learned and moved on.

The fall of the Bling Dynasty will be a blot on Bryant's resume, but he shouldn't bear the full weight of that cross.

twocents
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Reply #114 posted 04/09/08 12:25pm

Graycap23

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:



I don't disagree with any of that.....but if Kobe wanted that team 2 stay together, it WOULD have. My sources come a lot closer than from the media.


You're both right.

I put it all on Kobe at one time. But research indicates that a lot of folks shared blame. M-Funka's estimations on point. But 'Cap, what you said is ALSO true. I think the drama revolved around Kobe's impending free agency, and Kobe could have kept it together.

Last summer, though, Kobe said that he would have talked with Shaq more if he had to do it all over again. And Shaq softened on Kobe as well. Phil's adjusted his Kobe approach, and Buss seems to take his stars' comments less personally. Everyone learned and moved on.

The fall of the Bling Dynasty will be a blot on Bryant's resume, but he shouldn't bear the full weight of that cross.

twocents

All true.....but believe me, Kobe was the MAIN character in this tragic turn of events. Ego is a KILLER. It seems everyone's EGO got in the way, but it still took a KEY figure 2 shatter the house of cards.
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Reply #115 posted 04/09/08 12:25pm

MuthaFunka

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Graycap23 said:

MuthaFunka said:


I don't disagree with any of that.....but if Kobe wanted that team 2 stay together, it WOULD have. My sources come a lot closer than from the media.


It wasn't up to Kobe though, because Shaq was gonna opt out because the 2 couldn't co-exist. Now, had the both of them got together and came to a compromise, then maybe - But Buss still wanted an uptempo style of game and was growing weary of the triangle. Trust and believe, my 3 sources are almost from the horses' mouths with those 4 parties involved.
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Reply #116 posted 04/09/08 12:26pm

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:

Trust and believe, my 3 sources are almost from the horses' mouths with those 4 parties involved.

I hear ya. Mine 2.
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Reply #117 posted 04/09/08 12:27pm

MuthaFunka

avatar

namepeace said:

Graycap23 said:



I don't disagree with any of that.....but if Kobe wanted that team 2 stay together, it WOULD have. My sources come a lot closer than from the media.


You're both right.

I put it all on Kobe at one time. But research indicates that a lot of folks shared blame. M-Funka's estimations on point. But 'Cap, what you said is ALSO true. I think the drama revolved around Kobe's impending free agency, and Kobe could have kept it together.

Last summer, though, Kobe said that he would have talked with Shaq more if he had to do it all over again. And Shaq softened on Kobe as well. Phil's adjusted his Kobe approach, and Buss seems to take his stars' comments less personally. Everyone learned and moved on.

The fall of the Bling Dynasty will be a blot on Bryant's resume, but he shouldn't bear the full weight of that cross.

twocents


Bingo. Had both Kobe and Shaq been more adult and mature about all of this, then Buss's want for an uptempo style of play wouldn't have mattered as long as they were winning titles.
[Edited 4/9/08 12:28pm]
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Reply #118 posted 04/09/08 12:35pm

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:

namepeace said:



You're both right.

I put it all on Kobe at one time. But research indicates that a lot of folks shared blame. M-Funka's estimations on point. But 'Cap, what you said is ALSO true. I think the drama revolved around Kobe's impending free agency, and Kobe could have kept it together.

Last summer, though, Kobe said that he would have talked with Shaq more if he had to do it all over again. And Shaq softened on Kobe as well. Phil's adjusted his Kobe approach, and Buss seems to take his stars' comments less personally. Everyone learned and moved on.

The fall of the Bling Dynasty will be a blot on Bryant's resume, but he shouldn't bear the full weight of that cross.

twocents


Bingo. Had both Kobe and Shaq been more adult and mature about all of this, then Buss's want for an uptempo style of play wouldn't have mattered as long as they were winning titles.
[Edited 4/9/08 12:28pm]

Damn shame they broke that team up. Didn't they (the team) learn anything from the Bulls breaking up a championship team?
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Reply #119 posted 04/09/08 1:21pm

namepeace

Graycap23 said:

MuthaFunka said:


Bingo. Had both Kobe and Shaq been more adult and mature about all of this, then Buss's want for an uptempo style of play wouldn't have mattered as long as they were winning titles.


Damn shame they broke that team up. Didn't they (the team) learn anything from the Bulls breaking up a championship team?


I always envisioned a scenario like the Lakers had in the 80's, when Kareem was the first option and the "Cap" until Magic was asked (by Riley before the '86-'87 season) to become the team leader and Cap ceded that to him (generally).

I always thought that the early 00's would belong to Shaq and the late 00's to Kobe, and they'd win at least 6 O'Briens and split a few MVP's apiece. Sadly, neither of them recognized what they had in each other.

They were arguably the best inside-outside duo in the history of professional basketball. All they needed was a decent supporting cast and they'd have run the decade. But they each cost the team: Shaq in '02-'03, and Kobe in '03-'04.
They each had a role to play in the breakup.

And this is coming from a die-hard Laker fan and rehabilitated Anti-Kobe guy.
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