namepeace said:

I wouldn't necessarily say MJ's mid-range jater was "better" but he used it more often than Kobe does though.

MuthaFunka said:

Uh... you said he was a better free throw shooter. And I wholeheartedly disagree that he is a better scorer than MJ, because we are using different metrics. The difference is that mine is substantiated with tangible evidence. The numbers prove my case. Jordan has a (much) higher career scoring average and a significantly higher field goal percentage. How does that equate to Kobe being an all-around better scorer?

Moonbeam said:

Uh, he IS. FACT. And you either simply aren't comprehending what context the word "Scorer" is being used here or you just don't care. Whatever it is, it's on you.

MuthaFunka said:

The fact that you are using this to substantiate your argument is what I've questioned. Yeah, so Kobe has a lifetime average of 0.3% higher than MJ. Is that tiny edge really so noteworthy in the comparison?

As for the "scorer" issue, I simply disagree with your metrics of what makes a better scorer. In my book, being a better scorer implies having a higher scoring average and a higher field goal percentage. I would be willing to concede true shooting percentage as a metric as opposed to raw FG% because Kobe takes more 3's, but MJ wins in TS% as well. Michael's statistical advantage in all 3 of these categories demonstrates to me that:

(a) He is a more prolific scorer than Kobe, and
(b) He better knows how to play to his strengths, resulting in more points per shot attempt.

I'll take 10 MJ mid-range jumpers to 10 wild Kobe shots anyday, because MJ's likely to get more points out of the deal.

Moonbeam said:

So because you deem the FACT that it's measure ahead of MJ, you wanna rule it OUT? - Does that REALLY make sense to you? Better yet, would you have ruled it out if it were MJ ahead by that much? I think you wouldn't. Remember, YOU were the one that used the word "dominate" when no one here even said that, so you should check yourself on that one.

But from the tone of your paragraph (your "wild Kobe shots" comment set the tone), it really just seems you have an issue, whether it's valid or not and whether it's hate or not, with Kobe, as do a lot of people, so you're not gonna truly look at this unbiasedly.

And we differ on what context "scorer" is used, obviously. So to continue this with you is futile.

So, cool. Dislike him. Hate him. Be irked by him. Be irritated by him. Your choice. I'm not here to argue the man's personality, I'm here to prove that he deserves to be in the same conversation as MJ. Period.

MuthaFunka said:

Uhhh, no, I wouldn't have brought up a tiny statistical advantage like that. You make out as if it's a real edge. Based on their percentages, it would take both players shooting 1000 free throws for Kobe to make a whopping 3 more than MJ. The fact that you consider this tiny edge worth mentioning showcases how desperate a case it is from a statistical vantage point. I only mentioned that Kobe hardly "dominates" MJ in the free throw department because you matter-of-factly stated that Kobe is a better free throw shooter than MJ as if it bolstered your case.

And by the way, it isn't a "fact" that Kobe is a better free throw shooter. I'm a statistician, and if we assume that Kobe is just an 83.5% shooter like Michael, the probability that he would have made at least 5608 out of his 6689 attempts is 0.223, which no self-respecting statistician would consider significant.

Lastly, I've never pretended to not hate Kobe. I think he's a disgusting human being and I admit to being biased. Unfortunately for you, the statistics aren't, and Kobe doesn't measure up to MJ from a statistical vantage point, no matter what other subjective measure of scoring quality you use.

Moonbeam said:

Remember, YOU used the word "dominate" NOT me. So stop trying to pass it off as such.

And you claim to be a statistician, yet you're trying to tell me the NUMBERS ARE LYING? It's real simple: 83.8% is HIGHER/BETTER than 83.5%. YOU can't determine that it's not just because you "feel like it" or you "don't like Kobe".

And that part you stated that's in bold - That's exactly why I can't take anything of what you're saying as legit. You admitted to it and then you expect to retain ANY credibility? Yeah right! LMAO!

MuthaFunka said:

You may not have used the word "dominate", but you did point out that Kobe was a better free throw shooter than MJ. The point I'm making is that it's a little ridiculous given how close it is.

I am a real statistican. I lecture at the University of New South Wales in statistics. I'm not telling you that the numbers lie. What I'm describing is a principle taught in most inferential statistics courses, where people draw conclusions based on data, which is exactly what we're doing. What I've stated is that Kobe's statistical edge in free throw shooting is not statistically significant. In the eyes of probability, that means that assuming that Kobe also is really an 83.5% shooter (which would be the standard null hypothesis in a test to see if he really is better than 83.5%), the probability that he would make at least 5608 out of 6689 free throws by chance is 0.223. This probability (or p-value) is much too large to be deemed statistically significant, so any statistician would fail to reject the hypothesis that Kobe is really only an 83.5% shooter.

I admit to my anti-Kobe bias. When will you admit to your pro-Kobe bias? You're trying to argue that Kobe is a better scorer than MJ in spite of all the statistical evidence to the contrary, for goodness' sake!

namepeace said:

All 4 players you mention are great. But lets look at the circumstances.

1. Magic had pretty good teammates during his rookie season, also a championship season. So that's not a fair argument to begin with.

2. Bird also had pretty good teammates during his first 2 seasons. He won his first NBA championship in his second career season. So that's not a fair argument.

3. Dr. J was already a classic by winning 2 ABA championships before entering in the NBA. Now this is a fair argument because The Doctor was the cornerstone of the Nets (ABA) & Sixers (NBA) success.

4. Jerry West is THE best argument. Despite his own greatness, he had to wait until close to the end of his career to finally win his only NBA championship. Yes, he had Wilt during the championship run. But Jerry was still THE cornerstone of the Lakers offense, while Wilt was the main leader on defense.

Moonbeam said:

What do you mean I "may not have used the word 'dominate'"? I DIDN'T There's no "may" about it. YOU used it. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

And again, you can try and spin it ANY way you choose but THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE: 83.8 is higher than 83.5. Why? Because in grade school we're taught our numbers. And we ALL know that "8" is HIGHER than "5". You can get "scientific" with it all you want, but the end result is Kobe's FT% is higher than MJ's, not matter how slim the margin.

Am I pro-Kobe? No, I'm pro-TRUTH. I don't have it in me to "hate" on an athlete that I will never know or hang out with. That's just crazy. I can take my personal feelings out of the equation - Too bad you can't.

MuthaFunka said:

Now this was just desperate!

I never said that you said that Kobe dominated MJ in free throw percentage. I just pointed it out that it was a lame thing to bring up, given how close it is.

And I didn't "get all scientific"- I applied a basic statistical procedure. Any statistician would laugh at the notion of Kobe being a superior free throw shooter given how close it is. You are clinging so desperately to that 0.3% advantage, yet you conveniently ignore the statistically significant differences of MJ's higher scoring average, field goal percentage and true shooting percentage. The fact that you consistently are ignoring those numbers illustrates your pro-Kobe bias. And you know what? That's not a bad thing. I doubt anyone can be completely objective when it comes to these things. So if your ability to "keep personal feelings out of the equation" (although that seems suspect) makes you a better person, so be it.

MuthaFunka said:

U can't possibly be serious.

TonyVanDam said:

But Magic won 4 more titles alongside the all-time scoring leader. And 3 of those other 4 were won with another HOFer, Finals MVP, and top-50 all-time player at forward. Bird also played with two HOFers. Erving was dogged by the same criticisms Kobe has now -- can't win an NBA title -- and needed Moses to get him over the top in the Association.

Arguably, only Magic came into a better situation personnel-wise than Kobe Bryant. Bryant was taken by the Lakers when they had signed Shaq AND had:a deep team, which included Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel. They went deep into the playoffs two of Kobe's first 3 seasons (and may have even won the title if the Lakers hadn't fired Del Harris and traded Eddie Jones and Elden Campbell in '99 before the playoffs), and finally got over the top in 2000.

But again, that's not my point. Your criticism of Kobe not being among the GOATs is that he won his titles with Shaq and can't win one without Shaq. Even assuming that stays the same, you're holding him to a standard none of the players I mentioned are held to, because they all won titles playing alongside HOF players, just like he did with Shaq.

And would Shaq have won 3 titles in LA without Kobe?

I'm not a Kobe lover by any large stretch, but I think your standard unfairly singles him out. I still believe he isn't quite in the conversation with the Jordans, Magics, Birds, Wilts, Russells and Jabbars of the league. Time will tell if that happens. But as I see it, he'd be one of the GOATs if he hung up his kicks today to become a professional Aston Martn Jumper.


[Edited 4/15/08 8:37am]

MuthaFunka said:

That's fair; we don't have a completely accurate comparison if 24 doesn't use his. My guess is he'll go to it more over the next few seasons.

namepeace said:

Make it to the NBA Finals? Yes. Winning it? No. Why? Because even within the peak of his career, Shaq has one of THE worst free throw percentages in NBA history among centers.

Historically and fundamentally, the nature of the game is simple: get the ball to the center and the team with the better center is the better team. This is the reason why Jordan will be the GOAT. Of course there are lots of GOATs in the herd, including Kobe, but Jordan is the GOAT and will remain so until another go-to player can dominate the way he did WITHOUT a dominating big man at center. He changed the entire scope of the game! In fact, name one team that didn’t have a dominating (not necessarily the best) big-man at the time that won any championships. All I can think of is the Bad Boys, and for their tactics they deserve asterisks by their titles. Still, they didn’t dominate an entire decade the way Jordan’s Bulls did. Sure, it’s a team sport. BJ, Pippen, Horace, Tony, Kerr, etc. were as good as another supporting cast in the NBA. They played their respective roles well.

Adisa said:

Nice.....

Moonbeam said:

But you brought up "dominate" for no reason. YOU brought up that word. No one else.

LOL! And I love how you KEEP bringing up words like "superior". Again, when you learn to stop trying to put all the "extras" on this, then I will take you seriously. Then again, it's hard to take ANYONE seriusly when they feel Kobe was detrimental to Brian Grant and Kwame Brown's career .

But the FACT remains: Kobe's FT% is HIGHER than MJ's. FACT. YOU'RE the one that's having a hard time understanding numbers. Your hatred for Kobe is making you come up with ridiculous conclusions even when THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE.

Graycap23 said:

Dead serious. I don't have the energy to "hate" someone who has no bearing on my life. It's wasteful energy at best and pure ridiculousness at worst.

namepeace said:

Oh he will, just like MJ smartly did as his knees began to creak from all the high flying.

MuthaFunka said:

Hummmmm
Jordan more titles
Jordan more MVP's
Jordan higher scoring ave by plus 20%
Jordan more Gold medals
Jordan more NCAA's titles
Jordan.....should I continue?

Adisa said:

You're dead-on: The game is won from the paint.

However, MJ never faced a dominant center in the NBA Finals: Vlade Divac/Kevin Duckworth/Mark West/Jim McIlvaine/Greg Ostertag. WEAK. Very weak group of centers.

Now, the ONLY NBA Finals matchup I wish would have happened was: Hakeem's Rockets vs MJ's Bulls. THAT would have ended a ton of speculation on both sides. Honestly, I think Dream's team would have beaten MJ's squad simply because MJ's Bulls either won it in 5 or 6 games (mainly 6 though), and that was against WEAK centers. I don't see anyone stopping Dream while I do see MJ vs Drex causing MJ to extend himself on the defensive end, IF Drex takes the battle personal unlike he did when they faced in the 92 Finals.

Graycap23 said:

As long as you realize that Kobe's in the same conversation as MJ is, you can. But you just admitted you hated Kobe, so, I don't think that's physically possible for you to do .

MuthaFunka said:

lol.....keep dreaming.

Adisa said:

Exactly.

As great as Magic, Bird, Dr. J, & Jerry were in their respected eras, they always had dominated centers (Kareem, Parrish, Moses, Wilt) within their respected championship runs to fall back on for extra support. Kobe has the same respected circumstances (Shaq).

Jordan NEVER had that option in any of his 6 championships runs with the Chicago Bulls at all. But if the Chicago Bulls Organization would have found a dominated center by draft or free agency, Jordan AND Pippen might have potentially tie Bill Russell's record of 11 NBA championship ring!

MuthaFunka said:

My dislike of Kobe has nothing 2 do with it. He is NOT in the same conversation with Mj. Maybe when it's over.....but certainly NOT now. Jordan won 6 titles in a ROW.
6.....(full seasons played, retirement and partial seasons don't count)

Graycap23 said:

LOL! MJ CAN'T be THIS important to you, dawg! I REFUSE to believe he holds THIS much power and command over you! Say it ain't so, playa!

Graycap23 said:

Honestly, dawg - I STOPPED reading right after I read that part in bold. There's no way in hell that you can convince me that you're not using your hatred for Kobe to dictate your basketball-only view of him .

But It's cool. MJ is God for you. You see the game through MJ-colored goggles, so no one will ever be able to discuss this with you as long as you have that point of view.

MuthaFunka said:

MF.....u are on a ROLL. I'm laughing so hard I can hardly breathe.....now stop it.

Graycap23 said:

Dawg, I can ONLY call it how I see it! You know I don't fake the funk!