Graycap23 said:

What has MJ done without Pippen?

MuthaFunka said:

Hummm.....Jordan was the KEY 2 those teams. Shaq was the KEY 2 the Lakers titles. I've never heard ANYONE say the Scottie was the key 2 the Bulls titles.

Graycap23 said:

So since Pip wasn't a "key" to those titles....where are MJ's titles BEFORE and AFTER Pip?

MuthaFunka said:

In the title games when Scottie decided NOT 2 show up, MJ ALWAYS took up the slack. A L W A Y S

Scottie is the man so don't get it confused, but Mj was the MAN on that team.
Otherwise, the Bulls would have won when Mj was retired.

Graycap23 said:

C'mon, dawg! You can't use a FEW GAMES to prove that weak point! They wouldn't even BE in the Finals without Pip's contribution and presence, and YOU know this more than ANYBODY.

MuthaFunka said:

I'm in no way, shape or form suggesting that they would have. Mj and Scottie were a 1-2 punch. But 4 u 2 equate Kobe with MJ is a stretch 2 say the least. It seems that u think Mj was a creation of the media. Is that true?

MuthaFunka said:

.....and Scottie never won a NBA championship without MJ.

As for as the Kobe/Shaq controversy, Shaq has won one NBA championship WITHOUT Kobe. Dwayne Wade doing most of the hard work in the Finals is beside the point. The bottom line at the moment is that Shaq proved his point that he can be successful without Kobe.

And now Kobe still needs to prove that he can be successful without Shaq.
[Edited 4/14/08 10:30am]

Graycap23 said:

Seriously, how is it a "stretch"? No one in the game is closer to MJ than Kobe. Kobe's a better overall scorer than MJ was because Kobe has a better jater and 3pt shot. He can score from everywhere like MJ could. So, again, how is it a stretch equating Kobe to MJ. I just don't get it except there are die-hard MJ fans that don't EVER want to give up any props to any player than threatens MJ's legacy.

Is MJ's success media-driven? No. Is the media behind the notion that no one will ever come close to MJ. Hell fucking yes.

TonyVanDam said:

And MJ hasn't proven he could win without Scottie. Right? That's why you can't hold Kobe to standards that MJ hasn't and can't ever do.

MuthaFunka said:

Actually, the media's biggest crime was calling Kobe the heir to MJ's throne. Right there is the real problem and it's isn't Kobe fault at all.

Sport media has done this so many times with Penny Hardaway (remember him?), Grant Hill (before his injuries), Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, Dwayne Wade, and Lebron James. And for once, I wish the media would knock it off with all of this foolish. There is no such thing as "The Next Jordan".

At least Kobe has the right idea for his own basketball history. He doesn't want to be the next MJ. He wants to get the media to forget about MJ for a change.

TonyVanDam said:

MF -- See Reply No. 163. What I originally said is a testament to Jordan's greatness, not testimony AGAINST Kobe's greatness. There are a slew of HOF players, GOAT players, who didn't do it like Jordan. And, pending a final verdict, Kobe's in that class right now.

It's 23 and everybody else.

TVD -- Kobe's been to over ten All-Star Games, he's All-NBA many times over, he's a prolific scorer and lock-down defender, and he wears 3 NBA rings, with an increasingly viable shot at more.

How could he not be one of the GOATs NOW? There are some very, very valid criticisms of him as a teammate and he's had a few ignominious moments on and off the court (basketball-related), but no one can question his place among the greats. He's in the top 50 of all time, easy (and conservatively in the top half of THAT elite group), and a first-ballot HOF lock. The evidence doesn't lie.

The opinion that Kobe is growing in greatnesss and Jordan is still the greatest is not an either-or thing, it's a both-and thing.
[Edited 4/14/08 11:29am]

TonyVanDam said:

Good points, with one caveat: Kobe has never dismissed the Jordan comparison out of hand. In fact, he's embraced it. He wants to be greater than Jordan. Just like Jordan wanted to be greater than Larry and Magic and Dr. J. Thus, Kobe knows that if he can show himself to be greater than Jordan, he's the undisputed No. 1.

Jordan accomplished his goal.

Time will tell if Kobe accomplishes his.

MuthaFunka said:

Fair enough, except that Kobe always had a better ride in the NBA than Michael ever did.

Michael's rookie season, 1984 = no good teammates on the Chicago Bulls roster at all. Crappy situation from day 1. Would take 7 years to win 1st championships with better teammates.
Head Coach at time of championship run: Phil Jackson

Kobe's rookie season, 1996 = his teammates Shaq, Nick Van Exel, & Eddie Jones were already on the Los Angeles Lakers roster. Pretty good situation from day 1. Would take 4 years to win 1st championship with better teammates.
Head Coach at time of championship run: Phil Jackson

For this reason alone, it's hard for die-hard Jordan supporters to give Kobe his proper respect at times. MJ had to go through the NBA experience from the ground up. Kobe never had it as difficult.

namepeace said:

3 rings Kobe won with Shaq. I was very specific with my argument.

MuthaFunka said:

Jordan: Multiple MVP's, Multiple All -NBA defensive teams, 6 MVP in the Finals, shot 50.2% for a CAREER in a Bulls uniform. Career scoring ave over 30. GREAT defensive player.....

Kobe? Sometimes defensive player, does NOT shoot 50%, no MVP's, and a selfish team player.

Remember that game where Kobe refused 2 shoot? That was embarrassing.

Graycap23 said:

I like how you just tried to limit Kobe's career to a "few things"! So let me set the record straight on Kobe:



And Kobe's done it vs better/more athletic SG/SF than MJ did. MJ got to beat up on 6'3 SG for a lot of his career. You CAN'T deny and front about that, dawg.

Also, Kobe's at 25pts/Game Career Average and 45% FG Career Average. So again, how is it a STRETCH? And again - It's only unless you just don't like the dude for being the CLOSEST to MJ.

MuthaFunka said:

U do realize if I posted Jordan's list it would add at least 2 pages 2 this thread.....

Graycap23 said:

Yeah - Once YOU DOUBLE-SPACED it out!

MuthaFunka said:

If Kobe wins another title I might give him some dap....but until then, I can't stand the guy.

Graycap23 said:

And see, we coulda avoided AT LEAST 5 pages if you had just come clean that you just don't like the dude!

MuthaFunka said:

U know I did not like Kobe. Hell, Kobe knows I don't like him.

TonyVanDam said:

But by that reasoning . . .

Magic isn't great because he won 5 rings with Kareem.

Bird isn't great because he won 3 with Parrish and McHale.

Dr. J isn't great because he won 1 with Malone.

Jerry West isn't great because he won 1 with Wilt.

And yes, Jordan wasn't great because he won 6 with Pippen.

Your "specific" argument applies a standard that would make few of the undeniably GOAT players NOT GOATs. Every one of those players I mentioned wwon atitle with at least 1 other HOFer.

Kobe isn't my favorite Laker or favorite player of all time; I've had or have my own beefs with him.

But his individual talents and accolades validates him as among the GOATs. And the Lakers wouldn't have been as successful without him on those teams, and that cannot be denied. He has blemishes on his resume, but so do MANY HOF players.
[Edited 4/14/08 13:47pm]

MuthaFunka said:

Kobe: 45.3% Field Goal shooter for his career

Kobe's best season shooting: 46.9%

Michael: 49.7% Field Goal shooter for his career

Michael had 10 seasons where his field goal percentage was higher than Kobe's best.

Now, Kobe can make some circus shots, for sure, but to say that he's a better overall scorer than MJ when he clearly is a poorer shooter (or takes poorer shots, I'll leave that open for debate) is off the mark.

By the way, I'm not some blind MJ fan. If I made a list of my top 50 players, I doubt he would appear. But I recognize him for what he is/was- one of the greatest, if not the greatest player of all time.

Graycap23 said:

Naw, I knew it - I was just waiting for you to come clean and admit it publicly!

Moonbeam said:

Co-sign. BTW, Jordan was a career 50.2% shooter with the Bulls. He dropped below 50% his last 2 seasons playing 2 the Widzards.

Graycap23 said:

MJ was a much more efficient scorer than Kobe.

The truth is, I should HATE Michael. I rooted against the Bulls during 5 of 6 of their Finals appearances, because my favorite teams are Portland, Utah, and Seattle, and I like Phoenix too. On a similar token, I shouldn't hate Kobe, because I'm not really a Pacers fan, and I can't stand the Nets. But my appreciation for the game and its players extends beyond my own rooting biases, and because of that, I can acknowledge the greatest that was MJ and root for him.

Moonbeam said:

No, "Scorer" meaning "Having the ability to score from anywhere on the floor". Kobe's a better 3pt shooter than MJ and a better Free Thrower as well.

MuthaFunka said:

That doesn't make him a better scorer. And his career free throw percentage of 83.8% hardly dominates Jordan's 83.5%. Jordan had higher scoring averages with significantly higher field goal percentages.

MuthaFunka said:

Jordan had a better "bread and butter" midrange jumper, which led to higher shooting percentages.

Moonbeam said:

Uh, yes - it DOES make him a better all around scorer. And who said Kobe's free throw percentage "dominates" MJ's? Where'd you get that from? Why resort to making up shit now? Just keep it real and everything will be just fine.