ok Ice.. i'll try to be serious for a sec.. basically, and i mean BASICALLY.. i think we are just too amazing to be a fluke.. for example..when i see a pregnant woman i think it's just so beautiful..the birth of a child.. love between two people.. i just can't get my head around the possibility that these things just happened.. even the feeling i get sometimes from playing an instrument just fills me up.. i totally see ur point about the things that go wrong..my answer to that..i don't know.. i guess what i'm trying to say is that my "faith" comes from beauty..
a little off track.. i'm currently writing a song called "Jesus was a hippie" .. that's how i see him..cruzin around on a donkey with his long hair.. not like the Benny Hinns of this world, with their private planes and Armani(no idea how to spell that) suits.. guys like that make me cringe..

I'll give a different approach to this topic...

IceNine basically asks: "If God is supposed to be all-loving and all-powerful, then why did he create us in such a manner that we are suseptible to disease, and infinite number of internal physical ailments, as well as painful deaths??...Either He's not all-loving, not all-powerful...or doesn't exist."..

I think the first question that should be asked, though, is this: "Why did God create us in the first place?"...

You answer that question, and you will more easily find the answer to all questions that follow after it...

My problem, I guess, is that Ice's question starts off with the premise that there was no reason for God's creation of us...He just did...within that context, you can indeed find yourself asking why we experience the things we do if God is supposed to be "perfect" and nothing is beyond His abilities...

My thought, though, is this...remember how the argument used by many (including me) asks why God would give us free will, then deny us the opportunities to use it??...Well, to me, the same could be said of love, peace, bliss, pleasure...why would God instill in us these properties, then create a "world" in which we never get to use or experience any of these things??...

Knowledge of something is, once again, vastly different than experiencing it firsthand...Imagine if we were all born with Herculean strength...and that we knew instinctually that we were strong enough to lift or move anything we came in contact with...now imagine a world where the heaviest thing we'd ever come in contact with was a pillow...In a world like that, we don't get to experience the levels of our strength...in a world like that, our Herculean strength become irrelevant, has no value...because we never need to use it...we never are in a situation which calls for us to use it...basically, we are given a characteristic which is useless...but we know we're strong, so that's enough...or is it??...

To me, I'd have to ask why God would create us with the property of Herculean strength, then create a world for us to live in which we never are given the opportunity to use that strength...what sense does that make??...What purpose does it serve to posess this strength if we'll never, ever have the need to use it??...

To me, that would be the sign of a poorly designed creation, to give it something that holds no use or value whatsoever...

So it goes with things such as love...why would God create us with the ability to love...then deny us the opportunity to use and experience that love to its fullest??...You can't truly experience love fully without the existence of hate...so hate, by default, must exist within our world..."God does not show his love, by denying us the opportunity to use and show ours"...

God created within us an amazing level of intelligence, a level I don't think we've even come close to tapping into...well, what good would it do to give us this intelligence, then create a world for us to live in where we never need to use that intelligence??...Yes, I know I'm intelligent...but give me the chance to use that intelligence to overcome some obstacle (even if it's just a debate.. ), and I start to fully experience the level and reality of my intelligence...I understand my level of intelligence better, because I've seen it in use...

To me, in my mind, God has given us in this world everything we need to experience everything we instictually know about ourselves...He's created an "environment" which requires the use of intelligence, love, compassion, empathy, strength (both physical and emotional)...and on and on...He wants us to fully understand the power within all these traits, what they--and we--are capable of...and everytime we overcome some obstacle, some supposed "flaw", we collectively marvel at what we're able to achieve as humans...

Yet we also act like little kids, the human race stuck in the "terrible two's"..lol...in earthly terms, the human race has been around for thousands, millions and possibly even billions of years, depending upon who and what you believe...but in "God-like" terms, that's nothing...remember, God is suppose do have always existed...so to Him, we're like 12 year olds...lol...and, like most budding teenagers, we think we know everything there is to know...we rebel against our "parent figures"...we deem their "rules" to be arbitrary, to make no sense...as a human race, we probahly are reacting to God much as a teenager would react to their parents...give us another million years, and we'll be off to "college", and better able to understand ourselves and our world...another million years after that, and we'll be fully grown adults, laughing at the stupidity of our "teenage" years when we thought we knew all there was to know...

Anyway, long and off-topic a bit..lol...but just some more food for thought...(plus it keeps me from having to post again for a few weeks... )

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Man, I do see the daily destruction of lives. People using illicit drugs, men abusing their wives, wives cheating on their husbands, children and teenagers rebelling against their parents and destroying property, homes, and families, corporations bonding innocent citizens to acheive evil goals, police brutality, police putting drugs on the streets with the help of the government, people dying of AIDS, people knowingly and willingly joining the armed services to fight war...and for what?

My parents are both very good people at heart. But the system destroys their physical strength daily as well. Because of the major metropolitan city life, they have been placed in debt all of their lives, and struggle to stay afloat at near 50 years old.

I know the struggle.

I know that the good will overcome.

Please do not assume that anyone who joins the military does so in order to fight war. Some join because of the 'war' they grew up in.

ItalianToy said:

Your question had absolutely nothing to do with the topic so everyone is ignoring it as they should.

I'll give a different approach to this topic...

IceNine basically asks: "If God is supposed to be all-loving and all-powerful, then why did he create us in such a manner that we are suseptible to disease, and infinite number of internal physical ailments, as well as painful deaths??...Either He's not all-loving, not all-powerful...or doesn't exist."..

I think the first question that should be asked, though, is this: "Why did God create us in the first place?"...

You answer that question, and you will more easily find the answer to all questions that follow after it...

My problem, I guess, is that Ice's question starts off with the premise that there was no reason for God's creation of us...He just did...within that context, you can indeed find yourself asking why we experience the things we do if God is supposed to be "perfect" and nothing is beyond His abilities...

My thought, though, is this...remember how the argument used by many (including me) asks why God would give us free will, then deny us the opportunities to use it??...Well, to me, the same could be said of love, peace, bliss, pleasure...why would God instill in us these properties, then create a "world" in which we never get to use or experience any of these things??...

Knowledge of something is, once again, vastly different than experiencing it firsthand...Imagine if we were all born with Herculean strength...and that we knew instinctually that we were strong enough to lift or move anything we came in contact with...now imagine a world where the heaviest thing we'd ever come in contact with was a pillow...In a world like that, we don't get to experience the levels of our strength...in a world like that, our Herculean strength become irrelevant, has no value...because we never need to use it...we never are in a situation which calls for us to use it...basically, we are given a characteristic which is useless...but we know we're strong, so that's enough...or is it??...

To me, I'd have to ask why God would create us with the property of Herculean strength, then create a world for us to live in which we never are given the opportunity to use that strength...what sense does that make??...What purpose does it serve to posess this strength if we'll never, ever have the need to use it??...

To me, that would be the sign of a poorly designed creation, to give it something that holds no use or value whatsoever...

So it goes with things such as love...why would God create us with the ability to love...then deny us the opportunity to use and experience that love to its fullest??...You can't truly experience love fully without the existence of hate...so hate, by default, must exist within our world..."God does not show his love, by denying us the opportunity to use and show ours"...

God created within us an amazing level of intelligence, a level I don't think we've even come close to tapping into...well, what good would it do to give us this intelligence, then create a world for us to live in where we never need to use that intelligence??...Yes, I know I'm intelligent...but give me the chance to use that intelligence to overcome some obstacle (even if it's just a debate.. ), and I start to fully experience the level and reality of my intelligence...I understand my level of intelligence better, because I've seen it in use...

To me, in my mind, God has given us in this world everything we need to experience everything we instictually know about ourselves...He's created an "environment" which requires the use of intelligence, love, compassion, empathy, strength (both physical and emotional)...and on and on...He wants us to fully understand the power within all these traits, what they--and we--are capable of...and everytime we overcome some obstacle, some supposed "flaw", we collectively marvel at what we're able to achieve as humans...

Yet we also act like little kids, the human race stuck in the "terrible two's"..lol...in earthly terms, the human race has been around for thousands, millions and possibly even billions of years, depending upon who and what you believe...but in "God-like" terms, that's nothing...remember, God is suppose do have always existed...so to Him, we're like 12 year olds...lol...and, like most budding teenagers, we think we know everything there is to know...we rebel against our "parent figures"...we deem their "rules" to be arbitrary, to make no sense...as a human race, we probahly are reacting to God much as a teenager would react to their parents...give us another million years, and we'll be off to "college", and better able to understand ourselves and our world...another million years after that, and we'll be fully grown adults, laughing at the stupidity of our "teenage" years when we thought we knew all there was to know...

Anyway, long and off-topic a bit..lol...but just some more food for thought...(plus it keeps me from having to post again for a few weeks... )

IceNine said:

Does it?

Or do you not know the answer?

ItalianToy said:

Your question is neither clever nor difficult, but it really does have nothing to do with the topic, therefore I am not answering it... maybe you should look into starting a topic if you want to talk about that.

IceNine said:

If it's not difficult, then answer it. After all it is an argument often used against the creation of the world by God.

I it when you counter people's accusations by pointing out their own shortcoming..never seen people clam up so quickly...lol.

Theists happily affirm it; skeptics begrudgingly concede it.

It is simple logic.

Everything designed has a designer.

Design, at least in part, has to do with the arrangement of individual components within an object so as to accomplish a functional or artistic purpose.

An automobile contains design because its many units, engineered and fitted together, result in a machine that facilitates transportation.

A beautiful portrait evinces design when paints of various colors are combined, by brush or knife upon canvas, so as to effect an aesthetic response.

Rational individuals instinctively recognize the presence of design—for which there are multiplied thousands of examples within the Universe that we inhabit.

Adding to the force of this argument is the principle known as a fortiori reasoning.

If something is said to follow in an a fortiori fashion, it means that the conclusion can be reached with an even greater logical necessity than another conclusion already accepted.

“If a benevolent God does exist, why does He allow these things to happen?”

The implication of their question is clear.

Since these things do happen, God must not exist.

After all, you reason, no truly benevolent God would allow such things to occur. Since they do occur, the God depicted within the pages of the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures must not exist.

Such a charge, however, ignores the reason(s) for human suffering, and the potential intrinsic value that can be gained from such suffering.

If god does not want to give us a perfect world because we wont be able to "extend" ourselves, so to speak, then what is the point of heaven?

I take it that heaven is supposed to be a perfect place where all the good people live in bliss for eternity. By your reckoning it must be a mighty boring place without all these trials to test us.

It seems a very odd thing to do. Why cant we live in bliss from the start? Are we here for gods amusement?

If life is all about experience and how we deal with it what does this mean to a dieing child who has no chance? The starving, dirt poor people of the world who have no joy and no opportunity?

Saying that god created everything is an easy solution to your not being able to understand the causes of things and is an obstacle to intellectual development, as you have "solved" the problem without knowing anything at all.

IceNine said:

I have to comment on this, because in all honesty it's highly insulting...equating a belief in God with anyone's level of intelligence only speaks of the arrogance we humans have concerning our intelligence, in my opinion...

Science can only say "how"...it can never say "why"...and since it can't explain the "why", it assumes there is no "why" to answer...We, as humans, tend to believe that if we can understand something, then that eliminates a need of a God or Creator or Designer of any kind...I understand how my car works, so that now means that my car was not created or designed??...logically, analytically, and just in the context of common sense, that makes abso-stinkin-lutely no sense whatsoever...lol

I am saying that saying that god created everything and not looking for empirical evidence or scientific proofs is an obstacle to intellectual development. This means that blind belief without research will not further the cause of those who wish to prove that god exists.

Science has a better chance of saying both how and why than theology. Theology is a mental pursuit, whereas science is fact-based and searches for empirical evidence to support its claims.

Knowing how your car works has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand... we KNOW that the car was made by a car maker and we can OBSERVE the car being made and designed, therefore the car example is empty and meaningless. We cannot observe the universe being created and we cannot see it being designed, therefore any implication that there must have been an intelligent creator is pointless, as it is impossible to provide any evidence of the validity of claims the existence of this creator. With this in mind, the example of the car is not even a logical rebuttal.

IceNine said:

I, personally, don't think it's humanly possible to believe in God and not desire research or look for "proof"...actually, I tend to think that about a belief in anything, not just God...it's in our nature to understand all that we observe, witness, and experience...the reason the art of science even exists to begin with is not because the world had just enough non-believers to get the ball rolling...lol..it's because it's in our nature to do so...

I think that humans, as a rule, desire to know, but I do not believe that most believers try to approach the subject with reason or intellect.

"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason and even kill it, else one will not get into the kingdom of heaven." - Martin Luther

I also feel that pinning our existence on a supreme being is as irrational as you believe that it is to not believe in a supreme being. Is it more rational to believe that things just are or that there is some strange, mythical being that created things.

I believe that the idea of god is born out of humankind's inability to grasp the idea of the birth of the universe. Humans want to know who created the universe and say that god must have done it... well, who created god? If something must be without cause, it may as well be the universe as god.

As far as non-believers and science moving forward goes, religion has been a VERY big obstacle to science throughout history and has never helped the cause of science.

I also think it's possible to find "evidence" and "knowledge" of God without going the earthly scientific route...sometimes there's something more interior that rings truer to us which is vastly more powerful to us individually than any exterior evidence or "facts"...besides, when we say "prove to me that something exists or is real", we are in effect stating that no proof exists right now...we've already stacked the deck, so to speak, and have created our own reality that indeed no proof exists...if you walk outside on a bright, sunny morning, and say to me "prove that the sun exists and is shining", all I can do is point up to the sun, and say "look.."...but if I have to do that, it means that you don't consider the same exact experience and "evidence" that I'm experiencing is enough "proof"...so it really becomes a question that can not and will not be answered...

Interior knowledge is necessarily subjective and can never be objective due to the very fact that it is personal and internal. Science cannot be subjective and must always be objective in its goals and aims.

Sure, "interior evidence" will have more of an impact on people than "exterior evidence" because it is of a personal and subjective nature, therefore it is resonates strongly, as it is born out of internal wish fulfillment, whereas "exterior evidence" must be processed through the eyes of reason.

As far as the sun is concerned, we would not see it within 8 minutes of its burning out, so we can be pretty certain that it still exists. We are also talking about an observable phenomenon or object whereas god is not observable, testable or provable. We can prove that the sun exists but we cannot prove anything about god. Furthermore, internal experiences are nothing more than electro-chemical messages bouncing around the brain. The delusions of a schizophrenic are COMPLETELY real to him.

"How", yes..."Why", not a chance...you can't give a fact-based answer as to "why" the universe was created...

Correct! There is no reason "why" the universe was created. there also need be no reason for the universe's existence.

Actually, it's very logical...how many times have we, as humans, stumbled upon some stone shaped a bit like an arrow...how many times have we wondered who "created" something like Stonehenge, and "why" they did...and "how", for that matter...why is it that we don't think Stonehenge just "happened" accidentally, that the stones somehow fell into that exact pattern, and in that exact way??...Afterall, we didn't witness it being created, so what do we know??...The reason we don't, is because we can detect specific evidence of purposeful and intelligent thought behind it's structure and design...so, in our minds, it could not have just been rocks "falling" into place like that...whether or not we could witness it being created is irrelevant...

We only think that these things must have been created because we have seen men create them. There are naturally ocurring geometric shapes that have no need of being carved as well. In the case of Stonehenge, there are other monuments of a similar nature in the world and anthropologists have discovered many things about the uses and origins of them. I don't think that any scientist has ever believed that Stonehenge was created by god.

The real reason we don't take that same viewpoint with the universe, is because we humans can't create a universe...we feel we need to be able to do or create something before we can allow for anything else to be created...we can't create a brand spakin' new universe, so we assume that the one we reside in could not have been created, either...which speaks back to the arrogance we humans tend to have about these things...

We certainly cannot create a universe and that is why people believe in god. Since we cannot conceive of the creation of the universe, we pin it on a supreme being that is so much more powerful than us who can do anything imaginable. This is simply an unreasonable assumption in my mind. I think that arrogant is a demeaning term to use in relation to people who don't believe in god or creation. Those of us who do not believe in god are not arrogant, we are simply not mystics and like to see real evidence of phenomena and will not blindly believe things without some solid evidence.

Wellbeyond,

That reminds me of an old analogy.

SNIP

How hard is this to believe?

yamomma said:

My argument is that there is no good reason for suffering... my thinking is very much like that of Buddhists.

IceNine said:

But unlike you, Buddhists don't blame God for suffering. They blame attachment to the physical.

I, personally, don't think it's humanly possible to believe in God and not desire research or look for "proof"...actually, I tend to think that about a belief in anything, not just God...it's in our nature to understand all that we observe, witness, and experience...the reason the art of science even exists to begin with is not because the world had just enough non-believers to get the ball rolling...lol..it's because it's in our nature to do so...