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PrintableFreeChild said: University of Arizona scientist David Jablonski concludes that 'for many plants and animals, extinction was abrupt and somehow special. Mass extinctions are not merely the cumulative effects of gradual dyings. Something unusual happened.' Their arrival was also abrupt. Scientific American observes: "The sudden appearance of both suborders of the pterosaurs without any obvious antecedents is fairly typical of the fossil record." That is also the case with dinosaurs. Their relatively sudden appearance and disappearance contradicts the commonly accepted view of slow evolution.
Why can't people accept what I like to call "Divine Evolution" that God created life with the ability to evolve. I will never believe that man came from monkeys, and as more and more discoveries are made in the archaeological world, that whole idea is being questioned more and more. We, as a species have undoubtedly changed much, however, we have always been man and not apes. ( I know on a biological classification we are in the higher order of apes, but you know what I mean) -------------------------------------------------
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Oh and WB, I love you man... -------------------------------------------------
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IstenSzek said: Hey Ice.
I read the discussion you had yesterday and I also gave the question posed some thought. However, I don't think I'll get into this one since I find that I contradict myself once I start on this topic. There's too many angles from which to approach it. Each of them as viable as the next, no matter how contrary they all are or appear to be. All I can say is that I keep telling myself that any logical thinking person can not believe in God. Yet, whenever I do, I get goosebumps all over my body and in starting to contemplate this "all" which we shall call God for now, I usually start to feel very lightheaded as if I've just smoked 60 cigarettes in half an hour. My mind isn't build for handeling thoughts of god. So I'll just go for what *feels* ok on this one. Really??? 60 cigarettes in half an hour? literally smoked that many? That has to be an exaggeration? U must be rich!!!
Melody So...how's everybody doing?  | |
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FreeChild said: BorisFishpaw said: Here's another related question..
If the cycle of life and death, and all the disease and frailties of the human body are the consequence of original sin (and resultant expulsion from the garden of eden). Then why are the animals of the world also subject to the same shortcomings? I suppose what I'm asking is; if the reason things aren't perfect is because the human race disobeyed God's laws and fell from grace. Then what did Tigers, Monkeys & birds etc. do to deserve the same fate? Did the rest of the animal kingdom go and eat the apples from the tree of knowledge too? Hmmm that's funny I don't remember mentioning the tree of knowledge??? I did. 2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740 | |
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feltbluish said: FreeChild said: University of Arizona scientist David Jablonski concludes that 'for many plants and animals, extinction was abrupt and somehow special. Mass extinctions are not merely the cumulative effects of gradual dyings. Something unusual happened.' Their arrival was also abrupt. Scientific American observes: "The sudden appearance of both suborders of the pterosaurs without any obvious antecedents is fairly typical of the fossil record." That is also the case with dinosaurs. Their relatively sudden appearance and disappearance contradicts the commonly accepted view of slow evolution.
Why can't people accept what I like to call "Divine Evolution" that God created life with the ability to evolve. I will never believe that man came from monkeys, and as more and more discoveries are made in the archaeological world, that whole idea is being questioned more and more. We, as a species have undoubtedly changed much, however, we have always been man and not apes. ( I know on a biological classification we are in the higher order of apes, but you know what I mean) Feltbluish! You are not going to believe this but that is EXACTLY what I used to think. Then I decided to see what God had to say about it. Based on a study of the scripture, I decided I was wrong. That's just my observation... _______________________________________________
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because he had no intentions on us living 4ever. maybe he design us like a battery sooner or later your time is up 4 one reason or another. icenine if u dont believe and there is a god u are up shit creek. if u believe and there is no god u lose nothing. besides give it a try and jesus will come into your heart and make u feel like u have never felt b4. cant knock it until u try it. dont say u did at an early age. try it now with all your wisdom and heart. stickman | |
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feltbluish said: BorisFishpaw said: Here's another related question..
If the cycle of life and death, and all the disease and frailties of the human body are the consequence of original sin (and resultant expulsion from the garden of eden). Then why are the animals of the world also subject to the same shortcomings? I suppose what I'm asking is; if the reason things aren't perfect is because the human race disobeyed God's laws and fell from grace. Then what did Tigers, Monkeys & birds etc. do to deserve the same fate? Did the rest of the animal kingdom go and eat the apples from the tree of knowledge too? its cuz animals and tigers are stupider that people are...  Actually Felt, you are right. Animals were not made to live forever. They are a lower form of life. God created them for a purpose...but not the same purpose that he made man. Animals do not seek answers as to why they are here,
Or contemplate the existence of God. They don't even question why they have to die. On earth, man is God's highest creation. So...how's everybody doing? | |
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joelmarable said: because he had no intentions on us living 4ever. maybe he design us like a battery sooner or later your time is up 4 one reason or another. icenine if u dont believe and there is a god u are up shit creek. if u believe and there is no god u lose nothing. besides give it a try and jesus will come into your heart and make u feel like u have never felt b4. cant knock it until u try it. dont say u did at an early age. try it now with all your wisdom and heart.
If god will damn you to an eternity of hellfire for living a good life, not harming others and being compassionate without believing in god, then I have no desire to be affiliated with that god in heaven or otherwise. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said: Easy for you to say. You aren't witnessing the daily destruction of lives. In the end I know that we will survive but I still can't help but feel hopeless at times over the whole situation.
Man, I do see the daily destruction of lives. People using illicit drugs, men abusing their wives, wives cheating on their husbands, children and teenagers rebelling against their parents and destroying property, homes, and families, corporations bonding innocent citizens to acheive evil goals, police brutality, police putting drugs on the streets with the help of the government, people dying of AIDS, people knowingly and willingly joining the armed services to fight war...and for what? My parents are both very good people at heart. But the system destroys their physical strength daily as well. Because of the major metropolitan city life, they have been placed in debt all of their lives, and struggle to stay afloat at near 50 years old. I know the struggle. I know that the good will overcome. | |
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IceNine said: If god will damn you to an eternity of hellfire for living a good life, not harming others and being compassionate without believing in god, then I have no desire to be affiliated with that god in heaven or otherwise. Hey Ice, not all who believe in God believe those who choose not to try to know him are damned to hellfire. -------------------------------------------------
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JDODSON said: SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said: Easy for you to say. You aren't witnessing the daily destruction of lives. In the end I know that we will survive but I still can't help but feel hopeless at times over the whole situation.
Man, I do see the daily destruction of lives. People using illicit drugs, men abusing their wives, wives cheating on their husbands, children and teenagers rebelling against their parents and destroying property, homes, and families, corporations bonding innocent citizens to acheive evil goals, police brutality, police putting drugs on the streets with the help of the government, people dying of AIDS, people knowingly and willingly joining the armed services to fight war...and for what? Are you stating this from DIRECT personal experience or are you talking in General. It's a hugely different story watching this shit on the news and living it. [This message was edited Wed Oct 23 14:45:20 PDT 2002 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy] 2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740 | |
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SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said: Are you stating this from DIRECT personal experience or are you talking in General. It's a hugely different story watching this shit on the news and living it.
[This message was edited Wed Oct 23 14:45:20 PDT 2002 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy] Someone in my family or close to me experiences or has experienced all of those things I mentioned, and have also been victim of hate crime, because my uncle was assaulted and crippled in 1980 while bouncing at a gay bar in San Francisco. He was attacked because of hate. There are so many trials I have been witness to. | |
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JDODSON said: SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said: Are you stating this from DIRECT personal experience or are you talking in General. It's a hugely different story watching this shit on the news and living it.
[This message was edited Wed Oct 23 14:45:20 PDT 2002 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy] Someone in my family or close to me experiences or has experienced all of those things I mentioned, and have also been victim of hate crime, because my uncle was assaulted and crippled in 1980 while bouncing at a gay bar in San Francisco. He was attacked because of hate. There are so many trials I have been witness to. Good. Right about now I'm not in the mood for preaching. 2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740 | |
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I'm as atheist as they come, but 4 the sake of the argument, i'd like 2 play the devil's (or should i say god's) advocate.
Some questions (4 icenice&others): 1) long time ago i read this easy-reader book about this dude descartes, who wrote this line 'cogito, ergo sum'. I blieve he meant that, only bcause we r concious of our xistence, we do really xist (or something 2 that xtent). Anyweez, we have a level of consiousness that (most) animals have no id of. Wouldn't it b thinkable that a higher level of conciousness xists, mayb independant of any physical object, a level of conciousness we, as humans, cannot grasp? And if this is thinkable, is it wise 2 rule out the posibility of anything god-like 2 xist? 2) damn, ran out of semi-intelligent questions, gimme a minute... "It's better 2 B hated 4 what U R than 2 B loved 4 what U R not."
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forgive me if i am repeating something that had already been said but i have a lot of homework and can not read every single post on this great thread. The best answer anyone can give you, that is an honest answer is:
No, i can not explain why God chose to do something the way He chose to do so. That is the whole point of FAITH...if you knew the solid answer to every spiritual question you would not have faith, you would have knowledge. Knowledge is a very important thing and with it you can develop stronger Faith...but do not confuse knowledge with faith. I was at one time an atheist and completely understand where all this doubt comes from...read The Bible, and really open your mind and soul to it...as silly as you may think it is, ask this God that you don't believe in to show himself through the written Word and you may be surprised at the outcome...but you really have to want answers and you have to be ready to except that the answer you get may not be what you have been believing...it may not be what you want to "hear"...if you are not even open to the possibility than your search for answers will always be in vain. peace. [This message was edited Wed Oct 23 15:36:46 PDT 2002 by imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty] | |
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IceNine said: Heavenly said: IceNine said: In short, if a god did create life, it did a very poor design job... in my opinion. God didn't have computers back then, nor pen and paper, so it was more difficult designing things than today. I am taking that as a joke... and as such it is a good one! that's the way it was supposed to be taken
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I don't see the existence of pain, disease, etc. as God being "cruel" at all. It could be said that all of our pain and suffering serve to temper us, make us stronger. Sure, God could create us with strength from the get-go, but then we wouldn't appreciate what we had (which may be what occurred if the story of Lucifer's fall is literal).
All the pain we feel in this life makes us stronger, better people (if we make the right choices, and that's where Wellbeyond's point about free will comes into it). Sure, there is pain and suffering, and life can often times be a real bitch. If you think about it though, you will also see that life is filled with many wonderful experiences. In order to truly appreciate them, you have to have been through some bad crap. Maybe that is why God gave us the choice to begin with, and allowed us to be tempted into it. To really understand what I mean, I will use the example of a Butterfly. If you "help" a butterfly out of its coccoon, it will not properly strengthen its body, and will die. If you allow the butterfly to endure the struggle of coming out of the chrysalis, then it will have the strength it needs to take to the skies. I think this is very similar to how God operates. Sometimes, he must let us struggle and suffer, even if he doesn't want us to feel pain. Ultimately, we will not only have a better appreciation for our lives, but we will have a sense of accomplishment as well. It is all a part of our evolution (and yes, evolution is inherent is God's design). God has a goal for the human race, as well as the other animals of the world As for all the other animals feeling pain, when they were just put here to "serve" man, I think it goes a little deeper. If you really read what the Bible says on this point, man was put in charge of the Earth. While all the animals are his to use, that doesn't mean that he should abuse them. Just as a parent entrusting a precious gift to a child hopes that said child will take care of the gift, so is God with the earth and the animals. Sure, we are in charge, but that doesn't mean we should just do whatever we want with them (in other words, just because you can do a thing, doesn't mean you should). I think God has entrusted the well being of nature to us, in the hopes that one day we will evolve to a point where we will truly guard it as a precious gift. We have a long way to go, but I do think man will eventually get the point. The people who learn to love nature, and all of its myriad joys, will be the ones to inherit God's kingdom. God gave us a planet to do with as we will, but in the hopes that we would put it to good use. That we would love it and treasure it. That we would love the animals upon it, and do what we could to make their lives be filled with joy as well. Now, some will simply say that animals are "lower", and thus not in need of any compassion. Bollocks, I say! God is above man, yet he still deemed to take care of his creations. Some would also argue that man has a soul, while animals do not. To this, I answer that animals may not have a highly evolved soul, but they still possess the spark of life granted by God, therefore possessing at least an un-evolved spirit. This spirit is not subject to the same laws of redemption as man, since they are sinless in the eyes of God. Now, for man to abuse an animal, which does feel pain, and does have a spirit created by God, makes the man guilty of a heinous crime: being a bully. I believe God wants us to move beyond this behaviour, and become something better. Okay, I've rambled enough for now. I'll check back tomorrow to see if this is even remotely coherent. Peace, y'all! 
Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9) | |
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SpcMs said: I'm as atheist as they come, but 4 the sake of the argument, i'd like 2 play the devil's (or should i say god's) advocate.
Some questions (4 icenice&others): 1) long time ago i read this easy-reader book about this dude descartes, who wrote this line 'cogito, ergo sum'. I blieve he meant that, only bcause we r concious of our xistence, we do really xist (or something 2 that xtent). Anyweez, we have a level of consiousness that (most) animals have no id of. Wouldn't it b thinkable that a higher level of conciousness xists, mayb independant of any physical object, a level of conciousness we, as humans, cannot grasp? And if this is thinkable, is it wise 2 rule out the posibility of anything god-like 2 xist? 2) damn, ran out of semi-intelligent questions, gimme a minute... I don't rule out the possibility of something akin to an underlying mathematical formula that ties all things together, but I do rule out the possibility of a loving, caring god who watches over and loves his creations. The popular conception of god seems to be a product of people's psychological need for a protector, defender and someone to love them. Many people really do need that sort of god and I do not think that it is wrong for them to believe what makes them happy, but I certainly cannot believe in it. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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how could u light a crack pipe if u didn't have thumbs.. duuuh
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IceNine said: Hello, ladies and gentlemen... and hermaphrodites.
This is a question that I posed on a topic by LittleRedCorvette yesterday. WellBeyond and I had a great discussion about the following question yesterday... it morphed into different areas as well, and it was great. I would love to hear from some other people on this... WB and I had a really good discussion. --- Let me pose a question to those of you who believe that humans and animals were "designed" and "created" by a god. I am going to make this terribly simplistic, so forgive me: If a god created people, etc., why would this god go to the trouble of creating humans/animals with so many various parts, each of which can malfunction or be attacked by disease? If you were all-powerful, you could take a lump of clay and animate it with life... there is absolutely NO need for all the intricate internal workings of life if a god created life and as they say, the simplest and most elegant solution is the best solution. Wouldn't it be easier for a god to animate an object that has no internal workings? AND... since this creature is god, the laws of physics should bend to its will, therefore it could make a lump of marble walk, talk and live. Can you explain why an all-powerful god would create something with so many parts that can and will fail? AND... why is it that this same god who created all these unnecessary parts will allow small children to die of cancer that is attacking all of these parts that he has created when he did not have to use parts at all. In short, if a god did create life, it did a very poor design job... in my opinion. Sure we'll explain it when you explain the "Big Bang" theory. 
Such a technical theory, isn't it? Big Bang!! Hmm...  | |
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u know i heard that God doesn't believe in atheists... and he still hasn't made up his mind about agnostics..
[This message was edited Wed Oct 23 17:19:53 PDT 2002 by MrBliss] | |
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MrBliss said: u know i heard that God doesn't believe in atheists... and he still hasn't made up his mind about agnostics..
Nice one! I like it... "To you, I'm an atheist... to god, I'm the loyal opposition." - Woody Allen SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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. [This message was edited Wed Oct 23 17:34:32 PDT 2002 by Aerogram] | |
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Aerogram said: How about a whole questionnaire?
That should be a fresh, new topic... great stuff, Aerogram. As usual... [This message was edited Wed Oct 23 17:39:48 PDT 2002 by IceNine] SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine said: That should be a fresh, new topic... great stuff, Aerogram. As usual... Say no more. You may edit your post to erase it. | |
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IceNine said: joelmarable said: because he had no intentions on us living 4ever. maybe he design us like a battery sooner or later your time is up 4 one reason or another. icenine if u dont believe and there is a god u are up shit creek. if u believe and there is no god u lose nothing. besides give it a try and jesus will come into your heart and make u feel like u have never felt b4. cant knock it until u try it. dont say u did at an early age. try it now with all your wisdom and heart.
If god will damn you to an eternity of hellfire for living a good life, not harming others and being compassionate without believing in god, then I have no desire to be affiliated with that god in heaven or otherwise. Exactly! Is god only in it for the recognition and thanks? When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. | |
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IceNine said: In short, if a god did create life, it did a very poor design job... in my opinion.
yes i agree.. i think he should have made my penis much larger! | |
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waiting for someone to answer my question... | |
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ItalianToy said: waiting for someone to answer my question...
Your question had absolutely nothing to do with the topic so everyone is ignoring it as they should. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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ok Ice.. i'll try to be serious for a sec.. basically, and i mean BASICALLY.. i think we are just too amazing to be a fluke.. for example..when i see a pregnant woman i think it's just so beautiful..the birth of a child.. love between two people.. i just can't get my head around the possibility that these things just happened.. even the feeling i get sometimes from playing an instrument just fills me up.. i totally see ur point about the things that go wrong..my answer to that..i don't know.. i guess what i'm trying to say is that my "faith" comes from beauty..
a little off track.. i'm currently writing a song called "Jesus was a hippie" .. that's how i see him..cruzin around on a donkey with his long hair.. not like the Benny Hinns of this world, with their private planes and Armani(no idea how to spell that) suits.. guys like that make me cringe.. | |
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