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PrintableHeavenly said: IceNine said: In short, if a god did create life, it did a very poor design job... in my opinion. God didn't have computers back then, nor pen and paper, so it was more difficult designing things than today. I am taking that as a joke... and as such it is a good one!  SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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I don't have my Bible with me (at work), but according to Christianity, after the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, God basically said, now your bodies will die. You will have to earn your way "by the sweat of your brow." Woman will have pain in childbirth and her desires shall be for her husband. So it all stems from that first sin. | |
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dustysgirl said: I don't have my Bible with me (at work), but according to Christianity, after the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, God basically said, now your bodies will die. You will have to earn your way "by the sweat of your brow." Woman will have pain in childbirth and her desires shall be for her husband. So it all stems from that first sin.
But, why would a supreme being be so cruel? God made man and damned him for being human. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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And I completely understand and respect Ice's (and other atheists) views and challenges to the strength of God who, if you believe in all 3 Omni aspects, has the power to control EVERYTHING, especially things that are bad. I think it's totally healthy to think about these questions, to ask them and debate them. I believe it's uhealthy to blindly follow what you believe without the ability to challenge your faith when valid doubts arise. 2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740 | |
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IceNine said: dustysgirl said: I don't have my Bible with me (at work), but according to Christianity, after the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, God basically said, now your bodies will die. You will have to earn your way "by the sweat of your brow." Woman will have pain in childbirth and her desires shall be for her husband. So it all stems from that first sin.
But, why would a supreme being be so cruel? God made man and damned him for being human. And this is a valid point! 2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740 | |
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SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said: IceNine said: dustysgirl said: I don't have my Bible with me (at work), but according to Christianity, after the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, God basically said, now your bodies will die. You will have to earn your way "by the sweat of your brow." Woman will have pain in childbirth and her desires shall be for her husband. So it all stems from that first sin.
But, why would a supreme being be so cruel? God made man and damned him for being human. And this is a valid point! And then he threw all the animals and plants out of the garden of eden just for the hell of it too. | |
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IceNine said: dustysgirl said: I don't have my Bible with me (at work), but according to Christianity, after the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, God basically said, now your bodies will die. You will have to earn your way "by the sweat of your brow." Woman will have pain in childbirth and her desires shall be for her husband. So it all stems from that first sin.
But, why would a supreme being be so cruel? God made man and damned him for being human. Our bodies grow old and die so that there is more room on the planet! Also, I think that there is no universaly accepted interpretation of the bible Icenine. It is all open to conjecture!  | |
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? [This message was edited Sat Mar 1 3:07:19 PST 2003 by IstenSzek] and true love lives on lollipops and crisps | |
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IstenSzek said: IceNine said: But, why would a supreme being be so cruel? God made man and damned him for being human. If God pulled the break on man everytime he does wrong, the earth would already have exploded a hundred years ago. Think about it, without man killing millions and millions of his own species through the ages, we would now be stuck on this planet with aprox 3 billion people extra. Without the horrendous acts man imposes on himself and his kind, the earth would be even worse off. We would be eating each other's children for space if we'd been all love and hapiness since creation. at the current rate of population increase, this will probably still happen. | |
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Pain is an inescapable fact of life. Physical pain arises from injury and illness. Psychological pain accompanies many experiences from loss to betrayal. Although we know we can't escape it, we often wish that we could live without pain. As the Peanuts character Linus once said, "Pain hurts!"
Yet we need to realize that pain is an integral part of God's design. It is not in itself an evil thing, unpleasant though it may be. It plays a significant role in protecting us, educating us, and motivating us to progress. The presence of pain in the world is not a sign that there is no loving God, nor is it a sign of a "fallen creation." Paradoxical as it may seem, it is a sign of God's infinite love for us. Consider how physical pain serves our well-being. Pain is the first signal that we're injuring ourselves, prompting us to stop what we're doing or to focus attention on what's happening. More serious injury might thus be prevented. Pain tells us when we're suffering an illness, so that we can care for ourselves or seek help. Pain also teaches us about dangerous acts, such as touching hot objects, so that we will learn to protect ourselves from harm. Note that in the physical realm we don't necessarily come to hate that which causes us pain. Fire, for example, can cause some of the most severe pain, but we don't count fire as an enemy. Rather, we count it as a force to be respected. We've learned to harness fire and to handle it with appropriate care so that it doesn't harm us. Pain and advancement are closely linked. Pain also has another aspect: it can be a sign of effort and progress. The athlete knows that she will suffer some measure of pain when she pushes her limits, but she also knows that unless she does so, she won't progress. There is a spiritual lesson to be learned from this physical fact Consider what pain we are willing to endure for the sake of those we love. If I am unwilling to accept some measure of pain for someone else, isn't that a sign that I care more for myself than for that other person? If I am unwilling to accept some measure of pain for the sake of God, isn't that a sign that I value myself more than I value God? Of course, accepting pain isn't always simple and straightforward, because we do tend to abhor it, but it is in the attempt to overcome our aversion to pain that our love is proven We sometimes berate God or even deny His existence because life isn't all sunshine and roses. We think that if a loving God actually existed, He would have created a world in which there was no pain, no suffering, no possibility for evil. But that is not at all the case. Only our self-centeredness leads us to think that way. God asks us to detach ourselves from the things we desire and center ourselves in Him so that we might grow spiritually. Pain is one of the mechanisms He has created to help us in that endeavor. -------------------------------------------------
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feltbluish said: Pain is an inescapable fact of life. Physical pain arises from injury and illness. Psychological pain accompanies many experiences from loss to betrayal. Although we know we can't escape it, we often wish that we could live without pain. As the Peanuts character Linus once said, "Pain hurts!"
Yet we need to realize that pain is an integral part of God's design. It is not in itself an evil thing, unpleasant though it may be. It plays a significant role in protecting us, educating us, and motivating us to progress. The presence of pain in the world is not a sign that there is no loving God, nor is it a sign of a "fallen creation." Paradoxical as it may seem, it is a sign of God's infinite love for us. Consider how physical pain serves our well-being. Pain is the first signal that we're injuring ourselves, prompting us to stop what we're doing or to focus attention on what's happening. More serious injury might thus be prevented. Pain tells us when we're suffering an illness, so that we can care for ourselves or seek help. Pain also teaches us about dangerous acts, such as touching hot objects, so that we will learn to protect ourselves from harm. Note that in the physical realm we don't necessarily come to hate that which causes us pain. Fire, for example, can cause some of the most severe pain, but we don't count fire as an enemy. Rather, we count it as a force to be respected. We've learned to harness fire and to handle it with appropriate care so that it doesn't harm us. Pain and advancement are closely linked. Pain also has another aspect: it can be a sign of effort and progress. The athlete knows that she will suffer some measure of pain when she pushes her limits, but she also knows that unless she does so, she won't progress. There is a spiritual lesson to be learned from this physical fact Consider what pain we are willing to endure for the sake of those we love. If I am unwilling to accept some measure of pain for someone else, isn't that a sign that I care more for myself than for that other person? If I am unwilling to accept some measure of pain for the sake of God, isn't that a sign that I value myself more than I value God? Of course, accepting pain isn't always simple and straightforward, because we do tend to abhor it, but it is in the attempt to overcome our aversion to pain that our love is proven We sometimes berate God or even deny His existence because life isn't all sunshine and roses. We think that if a loving God actually existed, He would have created a world in which there was no pain, no suffering, no possibility for evil. But that is not at all the case. Only our self-centeredness leads us to think that way. God asks us to detach ourselves from the things we desire and center ourselves in Him so that we might grow spiritually. Pain is one of the mechanisms He has created to help us in that endeavor. There is NOTHING self-centered about expecting or wanting a world without pain, suffering or the possibility for evil to flourish. On a personal level I'm speaking specifically about the fact that the father of my sister's kids is a crazy maniac who has been terrorizing my family for the last 10 years. I struggle very much with the fact that this person is wrecking a bunch of lives. This situation challenges all faith as I slowly watch my mother growing older without any hope for escaping this situation. I watch my sister in total bondage to a freak that she can't escape because she's got 3 kids and no resources to change things. I do wonder WHY this is allowed to happen to people who believe in God. 2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740 | |
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feltbluish said: Pain is an inescapable fact of life. Physical pain arises from injury and illness. Psychological pain accompanies many experiences from loss to betrayal. Although we know we can't escape it, we often wish that we could live without pain. As the Peanuts character Linus once said, "Pain hurts!"
Yet we need to realize that pain is an integral part of God's design. It is not in itself an evil thing, unpleasant though it may be. It plays a significant role in protecting us, educating us, and motivating us to progress. The presence of pain in the world is not a sign that there is no loving God, nor is it a sign of a "fallen creation." Paradoxical as it may seem, it is a sign of God's infinite love for us. Consider how physical pain serves our well-being. Pain is the first signal that we're injuring ourselves, prompting us to stop what we're doing or to focus attention on what's happening. More serious injury might thus be prevented. Pain tells us when we're suffering an illness, so that we can care for ourselves or seek help. Pain also teaches us about dangerous acts, such as touching hot objects, so that we will learn to protect ourselves from harm. Note that in the physical realm we don't necessarily come to hate that which causes us pain. Fire, for example, can cause some of the most severe pain, but we don't count fire as an enemy. Rather, we count it as a force to be respected. We've learned to harness fire and to handle it with appropriate care so that it doesn't harm us. Pain and advancement are closely linked. Pain also has another aspect: it can be a sign of effort and progress. The athlete knows that she will suffer some measure of pain when she pushes her limits, but she also knows that unless she does so, she won't progress. There is a spiritual lesson to be learned from this physical fact Consider what pain we are willing to endure for the sake of those we love. If I am unwilling to accept some measure of pain for someone else, isn't that a sign that I care more for myself than for that other person? If I am unwilling to accept some measure of pain for the sake of God, isn't that a sign that I value myself more than I value God? Of course, accepting pain isn't always simple and straightforward, because we do tend to abhor it, but it is in the attempt to overcome our aversion to pain that our love is proven We sometimes berate God or even deny His existence because life isn't all sunshine and roses. We think that if a loving God actually existed, He would have created a world in which there was no pain, no suffering, no possibility for evil. But that is not at all the case. Only our self-centeredness leads us to think that way. God asks us to detach ourselves from the things we desire and center ourselves in Him so that we might grow spiritually. Pain is one of the mechanisms He has created to help us in that endeavor. Physical pain is felt by all organisms with nervous systems and god allegedly is not concerned with the enrichment of anything other than humans, according to the bible. If god only provided animals for the use of humans, why would he make them feel pain when humans slaughter them? Since god created animals for humans to use and eat, don't you think that it was a little cruel to allow them to feel pain and to suffer? SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine said: If you were all-powerful, you could take a lump of clay and animate it with life... there is absolutely NO need for all the intricate internal workings of life if a god created life and as they say, the simplest and most elegant solution is the best solution. Wouldn't it be easier for a god to animate an object that has no internal workings? AND... since this creature is god, the laws of physics should bend to its will, therefore it could make a lump of marble walk, talk and live. You are presupposing many things here, Icenine. For example, what may seem very complex, or less elegant to you, might be equally simple or elegant to God. Furthermore, just because (or if) God has created human and animal life in these forms does not mean to say that God has not or will not do exactly what you have suggested as well. The idea that something is easier or harder for an all-powerful being lacks logic, because - if the being is all-powerful - degrees of difficulty or complexity do not necessarily apply. (Incidentally, you also suggest in your question that god is considered a 'creature', which implies that god was created - that may or may not be the case). Can you explain why an all-powerful god would create something with so many parts that can and will fail? I don't have the answer, but then again, that doesn't mean to say there isn't at least one reason that God has for doing this. For example, there are known to be good reasons why human beings have body parts which are currently useless, but these played a part in their evolution. There is reason to believe that, in time, such parts may atrophy to the point of extinction if humans continue to evolve. You're just being a bit impatient in the grand scheme of things, perhaps  AND... why is it that this same god who created all these unnecessary parts will allow small children to die of cancer that is attacking all of these parts that he has created when he did not have to use parts at all. I think the 'unnecessary body part' element of this question is probably less relevant. The question is really - regardless of how people suffer - why does God allow people to suffer, because it all seems to fall short of the design perfection we would expect of an all-powerful creator. Again, I do not pretend to have the answer(s), but it does not mean that God does not have at least one reason for allowing this. Any suggestion on my part would be sheer speculation.In short, if a god did create life, it did a very poor design job... in my opinion. Yes - but as you say - that's your opinion from your perspective of sheer imperfection. Remember, you have already stated that human design is (from your own perspective) less than perfect. It's a tough one to own up to, but maybe one of your imperfections may be that you will not understand why and how God works during your life. It's a bummer, isn't it? But that's God for you.ALT+PLS+RTN: Pure as a pane of ice. It's a gift. |
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IceNine said: If a god created people, etc., why would this god go to the trouble of creating humans/animals with so many various parts, each of which can malfunction or be attacked by disease?
Imagine if you didn't have to eat...you'd miss out on great food,
In short, if a god did create life, it did a very poor design job... in my opinion. Imagine if you needed no sleep...you'd miss out on great dreams. Imagine if you needed no shelter...you'd miss out on a great pad. If you couldn't get disease or die...there would be no challenge in life. You'd have no reason to entertain a career or any struggle or achievement--after all, you can't die, it makes no difference. Is your ideal world one which no one worries about anything, experiences any pain, and yet we simply have fun all day (and night, as there is no sleep) for all eternity? No challenges, no risk, no excitement? What is the standard of perfection here? What would you prefer over this "flawed" existence? Me, I think human life is very interesting. I often wonder if we weren't all immortal once upon a time, but temporarily let go of such "perfection" in order to play in the great game! Or not...but really, what's so bad about life? Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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teller said: IceNine said: If a god created people, etc., why would this god go to the trouble of creating humans/animals with so many various parts, each of which can malfunction or be attacked by disease?
Imagine if you didn't have to eat...you'd miss out on great food,
In short, if a god did create life, it did a very poor design job... in my opinion. Imagine if you needed no sleep...you'd miss out on great dreams. Imagine if you needed no shelter...you'd miss out on a great pad. If you couldn't get disease or die...there would be no challenge in life. You'd have no reason to entertain a career or any struggle or achievement--after all, you can't die, it makes no difference. Is your ideal world one which no one worries about anything, experiences any pain, and yet we simply have fun all day (and night, as there is no sleep) for all eternity? No challenges, no risk, no excitement? What is the standard of perfection here? What would you prefer over this "flawed" existence? Me, I think human life is very interesting. I often wonder if we weren't all immortal once upon a time, but temporarily let go of such "perfection" in order to play in the great game! Or not...but really, what's so bad about life? There is the big problem... there is no objective definition of perfection. I would prefer nothing over this flawed existence, as I am a part of nature and nature just is. I am of the opinion that there is no god to save us, punish our enemies or nullify the laws of nature or physics on our behalf and I wouldn't have it any other way. There is nothing so bad about life, as it just is. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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I'll give a different approach to this topic...
IceNine basically asks: "If God is supposed to be all-loving and all-powerful, then why did he create us in such a manner that we are suseptible to disease, and infinite number of internal physical ailments, as well as painful deaths??...Either He's not all-loving, not all-powerful...or doesn't exist.".. I think the first question that should be asked, though, is this: "Why did God create us in the first place?"... You answer that question, and you will more easily find the answer to all questions that follow after it... My problem, I guess, is that Ice's question starts off with the premise that there was no reason for God's creation of us...He just did...within that context, you can indeed find yourself asking why we experience the things we do if God is supposed to be "perfect" and nothing is beyond His abilities... My thought, though, is this...remember how the argument used by many (including me) asks why God would give us free will, then deny us the opportunities to use it??...Well, to me, the same could be said of love, peace, bliss, pleasure...why would God instill in us these properties, then create a "world" in which we never get to use or experience any of these things??... Knowledge of something is, once again, vastly different than experiencing it firsthand...Imagine if we were all born with Herculean strength...and that we knew instinctually that we were strong enough to lift or move anything we came in contact with...now imagine a world where the heaviest thing we'd ever come in contact with was a pillow...In a world like that, we don't get to experience the levels of our strength...in a world like that, our Herculean strength become irrelevant, has no value...because we never need to use it...we never are in a situation which calls for us to use it...basically, we are given a characteristic which is useless...but we know we're strong, so that's enough...or is it??... To me, I'd have to ask why God would create us with the property of Herculean strength, then create a world for us to live in which we never are given the opportunity to use that strength...what sense does that make??...What purpose does it serve to posess this strength if we'll never, ever have the need to use it??... To me, that would be the sign of a poorly designed creation, to give it something that holds no use or value whatsoever... So it goes with things such as love...why would God create us with the ability to love...then deny us the opportunity to use and experience that love to its fullest??...You can't truly experience love fully without the existence of hate...so hate, by default, must exist within our world..."God does not show his love, by denying us the opportunity to use and show ours"... God created within us an amazing level of intelligence, a level I don't think we've even come close to tapping into...well, what good would it do to give us this intelligence, then create a world for us to live in where we never need to use that intelligence??...Yes, I know I'm intelligent...but give me the chance to use that intelligence to overcome some obstacle (even if it's just a debate.. ), and I start to fully experience the level and reality of my intelligence...I understand my level of intelligence better, because I've seen it in use...
To me, in my mind, God has given us in this world everything we need to experience everything we instictually know about ourselves...He's created an "environment" which requires the use of intelligence, love, compassion, empathy, strength (both physical and emotional)...and on and on...He wants us to fully understand the power within all these traits, what they--and we--are capable of...and everytime we overcome some obstacle, some supposed "flaw", we collectively marvel at what we're able to achieve as humans... Yet we also act like little kids, the human race stuck in the "terrible two's"..lol...in earthly terms, the human race has been around for thousands, millions and possibly even billions of years, depending upon who and what you believe...but in "God-like" terms, that's nothing...remember, God is suppose do have always existed...so to Him, we're like 12 year olds...lol...and, like most budding teenagers, we think we know everything there is to know...we rebel against our "parent figures"...we deem their "rules" to be arbitrary, to make no sense...as a human race, we probahly are reacting to God much as a teenager would react to their parents...give us another million years, and we'll be off to "college", and better able to understand ourselves and our world...another million years after that, and we'll be fully grown adults, laughing at the stupidity of our "teenage" years when we thought we knew all there was to know... Anyway, long and off-topic a bit..lol...but just some more food for thought...(plus it keeps me from having to post again for a few weeks... ) | |
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WellBeyond and I covered tons of stuff yesterday, so I will refrain from replying this time...
Someone please respond to his wonderful post!!! SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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That is simple. They do not believe in evolution.
dcm said: FreeChild said: yes, dcm I believe so.
Hello, FreeChild, If they do, why dont they talk about evolution in any of the JW teaching? DCM _______________________________________________
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University of Arizona scientist David Jablonski concludes that 'for many plants and animals, extinction was abrupt and somehow special. Mass extinctions are not merely the cumulative effects of gradual dyings. Something unusual happened.' Their arrival was also abrupt. Scientific American observes: "The sudden appearance of both suborders of the pterosaurs without any obvious antecedents is fairly typical of the fossil record." That is also the case with dinosaurs. Their relatively sudden appearance and disappearance contradicts the commonly accepted view of slow evolution. _______________________________________________
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wellbeyond said: I'll give a different approach to this topic...
IceNine basically asks: "If God is supposed to be all-loving and all-powerful, then why did he create us in such a manner that we are suseptible to disease, and infinite number of internal physical ailments, as well as painful deaths??...Either He's not all-loving, not all-powerful...or doesn't exist.".. I think the first question that should be asked, though, is this: "Why did God create us in the first place?"... You answer that question, and you will more easily find the answer to all questions that follow after it... My problem, I guess, is that Ice's question starts off with the premise that there was no reason for God's creation of us...He just did...within that context, you can indeed find yourself asking why we experience the things we do if God is supposed to be "perfect" and nothing is beyond His abilities... My thought, though, is this...remember how the argument used by many (including me) asks why God would give us free will, then deny us the opportunities to use it??...Well, to me, the same could be said of love, peace, bliss, pleasure...why would God instill in us these properties, then create a "world" in which we never get to use or experience any of these things??... Knowledge of something is, once again, vastly different than experiencing it firsthand...Imagine if we were all born with Herculean strength...and that we knew instinctually that we were strong enough to lift or move anything we came in contact with...now imagine a world where the heaviest thing we'd ever come in contact with was a pillow...In a world like that, we don't get to experience the levels of our strength...in a world like that, our Herculean strength become irrelevant, has no value...because we never need to use it...we never are in a situation which calls for us to use it...basically, we are given a characteristic which is useless...but we know we're strong, so that's enough...or is it??... To me, I'd have to ask why God would create us with the property of Herculean strength, then create a world for us to live in which we never are given the opportunity to use that strength...what sense does that make??...What purpose does it serve to posess this strength if we'll never, ever have the need to use it??... To me, that would be the sign of a poorly designed creation, to give it something that holds no use or value whatsoever... So it goes with things such as love...why would God create us with the ability to love...then deny us the opportunity to use and experience that love to its fullest??...You can't truly experience love fully without the existence of hate...so hate, by default, must exist within our world..."God does not show his love, by denying us the opportunity to use and show ours"... God created within us an amazing level of intelligence, a level I don't think we've even come close to tapping into...well, what good would it do to give us this intelligence, then create a world for us to live in where we never need to use that intelligence??...Yes, I know I'm intelligent...but give me the chance to use that intelligence to overcome some obstacle (even if it's just a debate.. ), and I start to fully experience the level and reality of my intelligence...I understand my level of intelligence better, because I've seen it in use...
To me, in my mind, God has given us in this world everything we need to experience everything we instictually know about ourselves...He's created an "environment" which requires the use of intelligence, love, compassion, empathy, strength (both physical and emotional)...and on and on...He wants us to fully understand the power within all these traits, what they--and we--are capable of...and everytime we overcome some obstacle, some supposed "flaw", we collectively marvel at what we're able to achieve as humans... Yet we also act like little kids, the human race stuck in the "terrible two's"..lol...in earthly terms, the human race has been around for thousands, millions and possibly even billions of years, depending upon who and what you believe...but in "God-like" terms, that's nothing...remember, God is suppose do have always existed...so to Him, we're like 12 year olds...lol...and, like most budding teenagers, we think we know everything there is to know...we rebel against our "parent figures"...we deem their "rules" to be arbitrary, to make no sense...as a human race, we probahly are reacting to God much as a teenager would react to their parents...give us another million years, and we'll be off to "college", and better able to understand ourselves and our world...another million years after that, and we'll be fully grown adults, laughing at the stupidity of our "teenage" years when we thought we knew all there was to know... Anyway, long and off-topic a bit..lol...but just some more food for thought...(plus it keeps me from having to post again for a few weeks... ) | |
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FreeChild said: University of Arizona scientist David Jablonski concludes that 'for many plants and animals, extinction was abrupt and somehow special. Mass extinctions are not merely the cumulative effects of gradual dyings. Something unusual happened.' Their arrival was also abrupt. Scientific American observes: "The sudden appearance of both suborders of the pterosaurs without any obvious antecedents is fairly typical of the fossil record." That is also the case with dinosaurs. Their relatively sudden appearance and disappearance contradicts the commonly accepted view of slow evolution.
But... there are MANY examples where you can trace the phylogenetic origins of species through the fossil record. Evolution is certainly real and one only needs to look at the Galapagos islands to see how this works. I will not go into a long Darwin rant right now, but evolution is certainly a real phenomenon. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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Well Ice, I try not to think about it and have faith blindly. But, if I were to guess, as we all do in some way, even in science, I would describe it as this...
Every structure and creation has a system or process to it. I don't believe how some religious people believe, per say I don't believe that God just says "voila" and it happens. I believe that there is a structural process to things. Now, I have an example of why bad things can happen to things that have good intentions. I work for a Toyota dealership, and I see cars that are brand new, intended for careful use and regular preventative maintenance. There are people who bring their cars in here and run 25,000 miles without an oil change, or they alter their coil springs, or they add superchargers to them, or they use generic motor oil, or they use bad gas, and so on and so on. Humans are the same way. God has an original plan for us. Other factors can enter and foil the plan in some way. This is why I rely on God to help me. I have faults, but I go to prayer as kind of like preventative maintenance, as also I receive knowledge and that helps to avoid negative things as well. I also believe that God may test people to strengthen their faith in Him. But, not being healed by faith does not mean that someone is unfaithful or unworthy. Evil things and negative things will attack and try to destroy the flesh of a human, but the spirit is something different. The spirit of a man lives separately from his flesh. Society can also do things to prevent the destruction of the flesh as well, such as better eating habits, better safety measures, not abusing drugs or using life threatening drugs, not committing acts of violence, and many more things. There is a big picture...God was the original picture taker who held the original negatives...Satan, or the negativity, stole the process and found out how to take his own pictures to use them how he wants...it is up to us to rely on God to develop the pictures and not Satan. We have free will on this earth. | |
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I agree with much of what WB so eloquently stated above. However I do struggle with one thing. The situation with my sister and her kids and my family having to deal with the father of her children is very destructive. My mom is stressed out, aging and watching what's left of her life slip away. I am concerned for her health because of this stress. My sister is burning the candle at both ends trying to keep her children clothed, fed and cared for. My whole family is in a state of constant aggravation with having to deal with these kids and having to deal with a crazy maniac that cannot be reasoned with. He has created these kids only to destroy their lives.
You have no idea how hard I work to keep my life full of loving people and avoid drama and stress YET this situtation is something I have to deal with. My mom has had untold pain through her whole life and doesn't deserve this. My sister and her kids didn't do anything to deserve this either. Bottom Line is this: What would the reason be for so many lives to be destroyed and mangled for such a long period of time? The payoff of being able to work through this and discover peace and love will come with a very high cost to my mom, my sister, her kids and myself. For what? The potential for my mom to have a heart attack over this is very real. The kids are messed up psychologically and it is going to take so much work to get them to a point where they can live happy lives. Where is the payoff? That is the question I struggle with. [This message was edited Wed Oct 23 12:06:07 PDT 2002 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy] 2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740 | |
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IceNine said: WellBeyond and I covered tons of stuff yesterday, so I will refrain from replying this time...
Someone please respond to his wonderful post!!! OK. Co-sign, WB! This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes. | |
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SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said: Where is the payoff?
The strong will survive, and those who Love are strong, and your reward is the continuation of your spirit beyond your physical life, and the spirit of the positive will not die. The spirit of negativity is temporal. | |
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wellbeyond said: I'll give a different approach to this topic...
IceNine basically asks: "If God is supposed to be all-loving and all-powerful, then why did he create us in such a manner that we are suseptible to disease, and infinite number of internal physical ailments, as well as painful deaths??...Either He's not all-loving, not all-powerful...or doesn't exist.".. I think the first question that should be asked, though, is this: "Why did God create us in the first place?"... You answer that question, and you will more easily find the answer to all questions that follow after it... My problem, I guess, is that Ice's question starts off with the premise that there was no reason for God's creation of us...He just did...within that context, you can indeed find yourself asking why we experience the things we do if God is supposed to be "perfect" and nothing is beyond His abilities... My thought, though, is this...remember how the argument used by many (including me) asks why God would give us free will, then deny us the opportunities to use it??...Well, to me, the same could be said of love, peace, bliss, pleasure...why would God instill in us these properties, then create a "world" in which we never get to use or experience any of these things??... Knowledge of something is, once again, vastly different than experiencing it firsthand...Imagine if we were all born with Herculean strength...and that we knew instinctually that we were strong enough to lift or move anything we came in contact with...now imagine a world where the heaviest thing we'd ever come in contact with was a pillow...In a world like that, we don't get to experience the levels of our strength...in a world like that, our Herculean strength become irrelevant, has no value...because we never need to use it...we never are in a situation which calls for us to use it...basically, we are given a characteristic which is useless...but we know we're strong, so that's enough...or is it??... To me, I'd have to ask why God would create us with the property of Herculean strength, then create a world for us to live in which we never are given the opportunity to use that strength...what sense does that make??...What purpose does it serve to posess this strength if we'll never, ever have the need to use it??... To me, that would be the sign of a poorly designed creation, to give it something that holds no use or value whatsoever... So it goes with things such as love...why would God create us with the ability to love...then deny us the opportunity to use and experience that love to its fullest??...You can't truly experience love fully without the existence of hate...so hate, by default, must exist within our world..."God does not show his love, by denying us the opportunity to use and show ours"... God created within us an amazing level of intelligence, a level I don't think we've even come close to tapping into...well, what good would it do to give us this intelligence, then create a world for us to live in where we never need to use that intelligence??...Yes, I know I'm intelligent...but give me the chance to use that intelligence to overcome some obstacle (even if it's just a debate.. ), and I start to fully experience the level and reality of my intelligence...I understand my level of intelligence better, because I've seen it in use...
To me, in my mind, God has given us in this world everything we need to experience everything we instictually know about ourselves...He's created an "environment" which requires the use of intelligence, love, compassion, empathy, strength (both physical and emotional)...and on and on...He wants us to fully understand the power within all these traits, what they--and we--are capable of...and everytime we overcome some obstacle, some supposed "flaw", we collectively marvel at what we're able to achieve as humans... Yet we also act like little kids, the human race stuck in the "terrible two's"..lol...in earthly terms, the human race has been around for thousands, millions and possibly even billions of years, depending upon who and what you believe...but in "God-like" terms, that's nothing...remember, God is suppose do have always existed...so to Him, we're like 12 year olds...lol...and, like most budding teenagers, we think we know everything there is to know...we rebel against our "parent figures"...we deem their "rules" to be arbitrary, to make no sense...as a human race, we probahly are reacting to God much as a teenager would react to their parents...give us another million years, and we'll be off to "college", and better able to understand ourselves and our world...another million years after that, and we'll be fully grown adults, laughing at the stupidity of our "teenage" years when we thought we knew all there was to know... Anyway, long and off-topic a bit..lol...but just some more food for thought...(plus it keeps me from having to post again for a few weeks... ) You, WB, are an example of one who thinks with his head and his heart. You see the beauty of life...the beauty of the gift. Your reasoning is appealing. I hope many will read what you wrote...not because it is established FACT...but because
it so well demonstrates the gifts of God Jehovah. My comment: The ability to enjoy God's gifts to the full are yet future. Yet, all people who have ever lived have the prospect of benefitting from God's purpose for the earth and its inhabitants. Jehovah God is the Creator...the wisest personage existing. It is good to question him. He answers all questions in his Word. To ridicule him is not so wise...not because he is vindictive, but because HE is the smart one... Melody So...how's everybody doing? | |
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JDODSON said: SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said: Where is the payoff?
The strong will survive, and those who Love are strong, and your reward is the continuation of your spirit beyond your physical life, and the spirit of the positive will not die. The spirit of negativity is temporal. Easy for you to say. You aren't witnessing the daily destruction of lives. In the end I know that we will survive but I still can't help but feel hopeless at times over the whole situation. 2010: Healing the Wounds of the Past.... http://prince.org/msg/8/325740 | |
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SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said: I agree with much of what WB so eloquently stated above. However I do struggle with one thing. The situation with my sister and her kids and my family having to deal with the father of her children is very destructive. My mom is stressed out, aging and watching what's left of her life slip away. I am concerned for her health because of this stress. My sister is burning the candle at both ends trying to keep her children clothed, fed and cared for. My whole family is in a state of constant aggravation with having to deal with these kids and having to deal with a crazy maniac that cannot be reasoned with. He has created these kids only to destroy their lives.
You have no idea how hard I work to keep my life full of loving people and avoid drama and stress YET this situtation is something I have to deal with. My mom has had untold pain through her whole life and doesn't deserve this. My sister and her kids didn't do anything to deserve this either. Bottom Line is this: What would the reason be for so many lives to be destroyed and mangled for such a long period of time? The payoff of being able to work through this and discover peace and love will come with a very high cost to my mom, my sister, her kids and myself. For what? The potential for my mom to have a heart attack over this is very real. The kids are messed up psychologically and it is going to take so much work to get them to a point where they can live happy lives. Where is the payoff? That is the question I struggle with. [This message was edited Wed Oct 23 12:06:07 PDT 2002 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy] Wow, first of all let me say I am sorry that your family is struggling with this. I had some similar garbage in my childhood. You are right they DO NOT deserve it. The most important thing is to get them out to a safe place. Then smother them completely with love 24/7. To answer your question "What would the reason be for so many lives to be destroyed and mangled for such a long period of time?" God has not allowed evil to exist just to prove some obscure point. On the contrary, it is to establish once and for all the fundamental truth that he alone is sovereign and that obedience to his laws is essential for the continued peace and happiness of all his creations. Man is not fit to guide his own steps, much less rule the earth. One crucial thing to keep in mind is that God knows that he can undo completely any harm that this may bring to the human family. He knows that in the long term, the temporary period of pain and suffering will have a beneficial outcome. I understand that just knowing these things may be of little solace to those who are suffering, but the Bible itself does give real solace. It not only provides a consistent explanation for the existence of suffering but also builds confidence in God's sure promise that he will undo all the harm that this temporary permission of suffering has caused. _______________________________________________
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wellbeyond said: I'll give a different approach to this topic...
IceNine basically asks: "If God is supposed to be all-loving and all-powerful, then why did he create us in such a manner that we are suseptible to disease, and infinite number of internal physical ailments, as well as painful deaths??...Either He's not all-loving, not all-powerful...or doesn't exist.".. I think the first question that should be asked, though, is this: "Why did God create us in the first place?"... You answer that question, and you will more easily find the answer to all questions that follow after it... My problem, I guess, is that Ice's question starts off with the premise that there was no reason for God's creation of us...He just did...within that context, you can indeed find yourself asking why we experience the things we do if God is supposed to be "perfect" and nothing is beyond His abilities... My thought, though, is this...remember how the argument used by many (including me) asks why God would give us free will, then deny us the opportunities to use it??...Well, to me, the same could be said of love, peace, bliss, pleasure...why would God instill in us these properties, then create a "world" in which we never get to use or experience any of these things??... Knowledge of something is, once again, vastly different than experiencing it firsthand...Imagine if we were all born with Herculean strength...and that we knew instinctually that we were strong enough to lift or move anything we came in contact with...now imagine a world where the heaviest thing we'd ever come in contact with was a pillow...In a world like that, we don't get to experience the levels of our strength...in a world like that, our Herculean strength become irrelevant, has no value...because we never need to use it...we never are in a situation which calls for us to use it...basically, we are given a characteristic which is useless...but we know we're strong, so that's enough...or is it??... To me, I'd have to ask why God would create us with the property of Herculean strength, then create a world for us to live in which we never are given the opportunity to use that strength...what sense does that make??...What purpose does it serve to posess this strength if we'll never, ever have the need to use it??... To me, that would be the sign of a poorly designed creation, to give it something that holds no use or value whatsoever... So it goes with things such as love...why would God create us with the ability to love...then deny us the opportunity to use and experience that love to its fullest??...You can't truly experience love fully without the existence of hate...so hate, by default, must exist within our world..."God does not show his love, by denying us the opportunity to use and show ours"... God created within us an amazing level of intelligence, a level I don't think we've even come close to tapping into...well, what good would it do to give us this intelligence, then create a world for us to live in where we never need to use that intelligence??...Yes, I know I'm intelligent...but give me the chance to use that intelligence to overcome some obstacle (even if it's just a debate.. ), and I start to fully experience the level and reality of my intelligence...I understand my level of intelligence better, because I've seen it in use...
To me, in my mind, God has given us in this world everything we need to experience everything we instictually know about ourselves...He's created an "environment" which requires the use of intelligence, love, compassion, empathy, strength (both physical and emotional)...and on and on...He wants us to fully understand the power within all these traits, what they--and we--are capable of...and everytime we overcome some obstacle, some supposed "flaw", we collectively marvel at what we're able to achieve as humans... Yet we also act like little kids, the human race stuck in the "terrible two's"..lol...in earthly terms, the human race has been around for thousands, millions and possibly even billions of years, depending upon who and what you believe...but in "God-like" terms, that's nothing...remember, God is suppose do have always existed...so to Him, we're like 12 year olds...lol...and, like most budding teenagers, we think we know everything there is to know...we rebel against our "parent figures"...we deem their "rules" to be arbitrary, to make no sense...as a human race, we probahly are reacting to God much as a teenager would react to their parents...give us another million years, and we'll be off to "college", and better able to understand ourselves and our world...another million years after that, and we'll be fully grown adults, laughing at the stupidity of our "teenage" years when we thought we knew all there was to know... Anyway, long and off-topic a bit..lol...but just some more food for thought...(plus it keeps me from having to post again for a few weeks... )Saw this post and I knew you would be here,  you my love feed me so very well in all possible ways. My soul is truly in beautiful hands... (((beautiful sigh))). Beautifully said, my love.
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BorisFishpaw said: Here's another related question..
If the cycle of life and death, and all the disease and frailties of the human body are the consequence of original sin (and resultant expulsion from the garden of eden). Then why are the animals of the world also subject to the same shortcomings? I suppose what I'm asking is; if the reason things aren't perfect is because the human race disobeyed God's laws and fell from grace. Then what did Tigers, Monkeys & birds etc. do to deserve the same fate? Did the rest of the animal kingdom go and eat the apples from the tree of knowledge too? Hmmm that's funny I don't remember mentioning the tree of knowledge??? _______________________________________________
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