Hello, ladies and gentlemen... and hermaphrodites.

This is a question that I posed on a topic by LittleRedCorvette yesterday. WellBeyond and I had a great discussion about the following question yesterday... it morphed into different areas as well, and it was great.

I would love to hear from some other people on this... WB and I had a really good discussion.

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Let me pose a question to those of you who believe that humans and animals were "designed" and "created" by a god. I am going to make this terribly simplistic, so forgive me:

If a god created people, etc., why would this god go to the trouble of creating humans/animals with so many various parts, each of which can malfunction or be attacked by disease?

If you were all-powerful, you could take a lump of clay and animate it with life... there is absolutely NO need for all the intricate internal workings of life if a god created life and as they say, the simplest and most elegant solution is the best solution. Wouldn't it be easier for a god to animate an object that has no internal workings? AND... since this creature is god, the laws of physics should bend to its will, therefore it could make a lump of marble walk, talk and live.

Can you explain why an all-powerful god would create something with so many parts that can and will fail? AND... why is it that this same god who created all these unnecessary parts will allow small children to die of cancer that is attacking all of these parts that he has created when he did not have to use parts at all.

In short, if a god did create life, it did a very poor design job... in my opinion.

I'm itching to reply... but you really don't want an answer. Your mind is made up.

FreeChild said:

First, do NOT tell me that I don't want an answer. I asked a question and I would NOT do so if I did not want an answer and it is extremely rude of you to say that.

Please answer... and you can look at my debate with WellBeyond and see that I am not being rude, harsh or mean.

My mind is certainly made up, but that does not stop discussion...

Here is the thread where WellBeyond and I had a nice, civil discussion:

http://www.prince.org/msg...&tid=25897

I'll give it a go:

I think that 1. Our bodies have been evolving in direct relation to our environments through history.

2. God designed our bodies to adapt to our earthly home constantly in change, mostly in part to our tampering with it.

I think all the organs and intricate workings are neccessary to process all the stimuli we are exposed to, all we ingest (knowingly or not), all we subject ourselves to and to procreate.

And if you think about it...with our universe being SO complex and filled with every imaginable theory, calculation, fact, chemical, structure, force and law, isn't it amazing that we and animals were created with a few things that can process it all AUTOMATICALLY!

Was cancer as rampant 4000 yrs ago as it is today?

With our constantly changing world, our bodies will continue to change with it. One of the great ways God designed us.

Little kids die because we are still in an everlasting cycle of figuring things out.

Maybe god made us so intricate in order for us to be able to reproduce life. He said, go forth and multiply, I think this process plays a major factor in why we are not simply lumps of animated clay.

I like Icenines threads

IceNine said:

Ice...I send big thanks and to you, Wellbeyond and LRC for sharing your opinions on this subject. You all stated your views elequently and were very gracious to one another...

Lleena said:

IceNine replied:

Lleena said:

IceNine replied:

For many people the answer to this question dates back to the first act of sin, notably Eve disobeying God's order not to eat from the tree of knowledge. If you believe this, it was that act that set forth the eventual weakness of the human body by introducing death into the equation.

These are very hard questions to answer. I do believe in God but don't espouse to know all the answers. I would like to point out the fact that even though the body is prone to weakness it is also resilient and strong and amazing in it's ability to regulate and heal itself.

Please remember that you asked for this... and you already called me RUDE...


EVERYWHERE you look, there is suffering. Some people bring it on themselves. They contract sexually transmitted diseases or experience the effects of drug or alcohol abuse or of smoking. Or they may encounter health problems because of poor eating habits. However, much suffering results from factors or events beyond the control of the average person: war, ethnic violence, crime, poverty, famine, and disease. Something else that humans basically cannot control is suffering related to aging and death.
When God created the first human, he produced more than just a body with a brain. Further, God did not create Adam and Eve to be mindless robots. He implanted in them the faculty of free will. All of us appreciate this gift of free will because we do not want all our thoughts and actions dictated to us without ever having a choice in anything.
For the common good, there must be boundaries. Hence, free will was to be regulated by the rule of law. Otherwise, anarchy would result.

Since God created humans, he knows best what laws they need to obey for their own good and for the good of others.

Humans were not created to be independent of God. He made them in such a way that their success and happiness depend on obedience to his righteous laws. God made mankind subject to his physical laws, such as the law of gravity. Similarly, he made humans to be subject to his moral laws, which are designed to result in a harmonious society. Thus, the human family could never be successful in regulating itself without God's rulership. Trying to be independent from him, people would devise social, economic, political, and religious systems that would conflict with one another

Our original ancestors misused their free will. They wrongly thought that they could be successful independent of God. Of their own free will, they stepped outside the boundaries of his laws. (Genesis, chapter 3) Because they rejected his rulership, he no longer was obligated to sustain them in perfection.

From the time they disobeyed God, Adam and Eve began to degenerate in body and mind. So because of cutting themselves off from Jehovah, the first human couple became imperfect and eventually died. Consistent with laws of genetic inheritance, their offspring could receive only what their parents themselves possessed… imperfection and death.

Ok!
I just had an idea, maybe God created us as the complex creatures we are in order that we could not be reproduced against his will. For example, A scientist trying to recreate life in his labroratory (think Frankenstein, Brave New World!)

Lleena said:

But... cloning is certainly possible and god is infallible, therefore, god did not do it for that purpose.

Lleena said:

then he failed

POOK said:

Ahhh, but god could make clay that would never dry, as god is the architect of all things... thus, we wouldn't have to worry about the monkey ashtray and nobody would throw ashes or butts on President Pook!

IceNine said:

THAT WOULD BE BAD

POOK FLING POO AT YOU

YOU FLING BUTT AT POOK

OH THE IRONY!

Cloning certainly is possible, but the degree of success is debatable. For instance, Dolly the sheep (cloned) developed arthritis in her knees, the scientist couldn't figure out why.

Sorry if this is going off at a tangent.

Lleena said:

We don't need any cloned, arthritic sheep... so cloning has not been perfected yet... we are on the way though...

Soon... decanting and all that fun stuff from Huxley's fine book!

Your avatar is an animated lump of clay

Here's another related question..
If the cycle of life and death, and all the disease and frailties of the human body are the consequence of original sin (and resultant expulsion from the garden of eden). Then why are the animals of the world also subject to the same shortcomings?

I suppose what I'm asking is; if the reason things aren't perfect is because the human race disobeyed God's laws and fell from grace. Then what did Tigers, Monkeys & birds etc. do to deserve the same fate? Did the rest of the animal kingdom go and eat the apples from the tree of knowledge too?

BorisFishpaw said:

its cuz animals and tigers are stupider that people are...

BorisFishpaw said:

A fine question, and I would say that these things happen across all species because they were NOT created by a god... and if they were created by a god, this god was either not very good at creation, or it was extremely cruel.

This is, of course, just my opinion.

FreeChild said:

DCM here,

Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe in dinosaurs?

(Just asking!)

yes, dcm I believe so.

IceNine said:

If that happens you'll find me outside of the city walls living amongst the "savages"...

FreeChild said:

Hello, FreeChild,

If they do, why dont they talk about evolution in any of the JW teaching?

DCM

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

In relation to my point about the body's amazing abilities I wanted to share a personal experience.

I suffered with major stomach problems over the last 5 years. In 97 I had a stomach attack that made me miss 4 days of work. I was so sick that I could barely get out of bed. I literally felt as if my guts were rung like dishrags and then put through a press. I felt like I was dying.

Over the next 5 years I would have this attack periodically, usually about 2 times a year. The attacks were getting more frequent, even though I changed my diet to accomodate my stomach's extreme sensitivity. In February 2002 I had another attack (3rd attack in the last 8 months prior to Feb) and I went to the emergency room to get x-rays. When I went in and described my symptoms the doctor did a physical exam and drew blood samples. I told the doctor that this was about my 13th attack in the last 5 years and that I had been to the doctor's office 2 other times and that the doctors only ever gave me pain pills and pills to reduce the acid in my stomach, which I couldn't take cuz they made me feel like I was on speed.

So the doctor came back with the blood work results and asks me if I'm positive I've had this attack before. I told him absolutely without a doubt that this is the same attack that I had over the past 5 years and he said that he thought I had appendicitis but that recurring appendicitis was extremely rare and almost unheard of. Sure enough when they opened me up IT WAS MY APPENDIX! It was litterally disintegrating inside of me.

My point is that appendicitis is deadly and 99% of the time when someone has appendicitis the only option is to take it out or it will progress to the point of bursting and if it bursts, poison will be released into the bloodstream and will kill you if left unattended. All those times I was having an appedix attack and my body was strong enough to fight it off. That is a miracle if you ask me. The fact that I came that close to death that many times proves to me that God made the body to be just as strong, sometimes stronger, than it was made to be weak.

IceNine said:

Exactly my point.
If God was the author of the bible, then you'd think he'd at least have got someone to proof read it for gaping plot holes.

IceNine said:

God didn't have computers back then, nor pen and paper, so it was more difficult designing things than today.

?
[This message was edited Fri Feb 28 8:58:20 PST 2003 by IstenSzek]