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PrintableMuthaFunka said: violator said: I don't think you're putting enough emphasis on this. For the majority of baseball writers, Barry Bonds was a major league asshole long before any talk of steroids ever came about. So now with something tangible like this is on the table, how can you say with certainty that Bonds is being hammered unfairly because of race...? Because America was built on racism. America profits from racism. America thrives from racism. Therefore, every microcosm within America where Whites are the majority and hold most of the power is infected with racism. There's NO way around that and anyone that thinks otherwise is only blind or fooling themself. Now, having said that: You take a man - a Black man - that has taken over the sport (The most American sport of all) as its main attraction and within America, there will be those that will "go after" him based on that alone. So what they will hide behind is "He's an asshole" and "He's not a media darling" and attack him that way. For some, it's true. For others, it's because he's Black. Like I said, they're already spinning Clemens' roid bust as "hearsay" but they've already convicted Bonds with that exact same "hearsay". Okay, so racism is alive and well in America. But when you talk about 'the Bonds treatment', what you need to understand is that Barry has always gotten that treatment. This is nothing new. He has always had a very contentious relationship with the media. Well before his home run chase. Well before steroid allegations. And even well before he "took over the sport." Running a close second to his reputation as one of the most talented players in the game, was always his reputation for being an asshole. And it was a well documented reputation. I don't doubt for a second that Bonds is going to be dealt with more harshly than anyone else associated with allegations of steroid use. I don't doubt at all that there's a large contingency of baseball writers who are secretly and even openly taking delight in what Bonds is now facing. But to draw the inference that there's some sort of race-based shift in the media's handling of Bonds simply because of the presence of steroids doesn't really fly. Nothing has changed about the way the media handles Bonds. He's just given them more ammunition and another reason. | |
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violator said: MuthaFunka said: Because America was built on racism. America profits from racism. America thrives from racism. Therefore, every microcosm within America where Whites are the majority and hold most of the power is infected with racism. There's NO way around that and anyone that thinks otherwise is only blind or fooling themself. Now, having said that: You take a man - a Black man - that has taken over the sport (The most American sport of all) as its main attraction and within America, there will be those that will "go after" him based on that alone. So what they will hide behind is "He's an asshole" and "He's not a media darling" and attack him that way. For some, it's true. For others, it's because he's Black. Like I said, they're already spinning Clemens' roid bust as "hearsay" but they've already convicted Bonds with that exact same "hearsay". Okay, so racism is alive and well in America. But when you talk about 'the Bonds treatment', what you need to understand is that Barry has always gotten that treatment. This is nothing new. He has always had a very contentious relationship with the media. Well before his home run chase. Well before steroid allegations. And even well before he "took over the sport." Running a close second to his reputation as one of the most talented players in the game, was always his reputation for being an asshole. And it was a well documented reputation. I don't doubt for a second that Bonds is going to be dealt with more harshly than anyone else associated with allegations of steroid use. I don't doubt at all that there's a large contingency of baseball writers who are secretly and even openly taking delight in what Bonds is now facing. But to draw the inference that there's some sort of race-based shift in the media's handling of Bonds simply because of the presence of steroids doesn't really fly. Nothing has changed about the way the media handles Bonds. He's just given them more ammunition and another reason. Well the truth is if you are going to be a prick to the media you are going to pay a price, its that simple, Bonds has had issues since day one with the media, as tons of others have, look at A-rod here in NYC heres a guy that practically the only reason that the yankees were good last year and he still gets booed and written up as a shit head in the paper. When Mike Piazza was a met it was the same deal, though he wasnt a prick he was too quiet and it looked to new york media as if he was "too good" so they started rumours that he was gay and other things like that. The truth is NO MATTER what anyone says nothing is done yet, just because this report came out it doesnt mean anything, its really all hearsay unless someone has proof, if someone is being called to court and being indicted there might be some documents that they have on him, Paul Loduca is already one that is going to be gone after since documents were siezed from when he was a dodger. The point is regardless of who did what, who ever is guilty of "cheating" which i dont doubt is all of them named then all records broken get taken back, seems unfair but Henry Aaron isnt going to say its unfair if he gets his title back, after all he set the record for real. "We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F | |
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violator said: lastdecember said: True but that guy gets no respect from me, not because he blew the cover off, but because he didnt do anything long before, he waited till his money was made and he was safely out of the game. Exactly. His, was not an admission of conscience, but rather, of convenience. True but regardless of that, they called the man a liar. | |
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violator said: MuthaFunka said: Because America was built on racism. America profits from racism. America thrives from racism. Therefore, every microcosm within America where Whites are the majority and hold most of the power is infected with racism. There's NO way around that and anyone that thinks otherwise is only blind or fooling themself. Now, having said that: You take a man - a Black man - that has taken over the sport (The most American sport of all) as its main attraction and within America, there will be those that will "go after" him based on that alone. So what they will hide behind is "He's an asshole" and "He's not a media darling" and attack him that way. For some, it's true. For others, it's because he's Black. Like I said, they're already spinning Clemens' roid bust as "hearsay" but they've already convicted Bonds with that exact same "hearsay". Okay, so racism is alive and well in America. But when you talk about 'the Bonds treatment', what you need to understand is that Barry has always gotten that treatment. This is nothing new. He has always had a very contentious relationship with the media. Well before his home run chase. Well before steroid allegations. And even well before he "took over the sport." Running a close second to his reputation as one of the most talented players in the game, was always his reputation for being an asshole. And it was a well documented reputation. I don't doubt for a second that Bonds is going to be dealt with more harshly than anyone else associated with allegations of steroid use. I don't doubt at all that there's a large contingency of baseball writers who are secretly and even openly taking delight in what Bonds is now facing. But to draw the inference that there's some sort of race-based shift in the media's handling of Bonds simply because of the presence of steroids doesn't really fly. Nothing has changed about the way the media handles Bonds. He's just given them more ammunition and another reason. So basically, you're blowing off the racism angle, which is predictable because there are some who feel racism isn't really an issue at all, so I'm not surprised that you don't think racism plays ZERO ROLE in how Bonds is treated. No one said it's the ONLY reason, I'm saying it plays a part in the witch hunt. nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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Graycap23 said: violator said: Exactly. His, was not an admission of conscience, but rather, of convenience. True but regardless of that, they called the man a liar. And you think that warrants an apology from the media? Acknowledgement perhaps, but it'd be a stretch to say he deserves an apology. | |
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MuthaFunka said: violator said: Okay, so racism is alive and well in America. But when you talk about 'the Bonds treatment', what you need to understand is that Barry has always gotten that treatment. This is nothing new. He has always had a very contentious relationship with the media. Well before his home run chase. Well before steroid allegations. And even well before he "took over the sport." Running a close second to his reputation as one of the most talented players in the game, was always his reputation for being an asshole. And it was a well documented reputation. I don't doubt for a second that Bonds is going to be dealt with more harshly than anyone else associated with allegations of steroid use. I don't doubt at all that there's a large contingency of baseball writers who are secretly and even openly taking delight in what Bonds is now facing. But to draw the inference that there's some sort of race-based shift in the media's handling of Bonds simply because of the presence of steroids doesn't really fly. Nothing has changed about the way the media handles Bonds. He's just given them more ammunition and another reason. So basically, you're blowing off the racism angle, which is predictable because there are some who feel racism isn't really an issue at all, so I'm not surprised that you don't think racism plays ZERO ROLE in how Bonds is treated. No one said it's the ONLY reason, I'm saying it plays a part in the witch hunt. Of course it does. | |
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MuthaFunka said: violator said: Okay, so racism is alive and well in America. But when you talk about 'the Bonds treatment', what you need to understand is that Barry has always gotten that treatment. This is nothing new. He has always had a very contentious relationship with the media. Well before his home run chase. Well before steroid allegations. And even well before he "took over the sport." Running a close second to his reputation as one of the most talented players in the game, was always his reputation for being an asshole. And it was a well documented reputation. I don't doubt for a second that Bonds is going to be dealt with more harshly than anyone else associated with allegations of steroid use. I don't doubt at all that there's a large contingency of baseball writers who are secretly and even openly taking delight in what Bonds is now facing. But to draw the inference that there's some sort of race-based shift in the media's handling of Bonds simply because of the presence of steroids doesn't really fly. Nothing has changed about the way the media handles Bonds. He's just given them more ammunition and another reason. So basically, you're blowing off the racism angle, which is predictable because there are some who feel racism isn't really an issue at all, so I'm not surprised that you don't think racism plays ZERO ROLE in how Bonds is treated. No one said it's the ONLY reason, I'm saying it plays a part in the witch hunt. No, I'm not blowing off the presence of racism in this discussion. Nor did I say you said it was the ONLY reason. Although it seems to be the one you're pushing the hardest. Go back and look at what I said. I said that I don't think you're putting enough "emphasis" on the contentious relationship that Bonds had with the media before this all began. I'm just saying dig a little deeper. That's all. | |
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violator said: MuthaFunka said: So basically, you're blowing off the racism angle, which is predictable because there are some who feel racism isn't really an issue at all, so I'm not surprised that you don't think racism plays ZERO ROLE in how Bonds is treated. No one said it's the ONLY reason, I'm saying it plays a part in the witch hunt. No, I'm not blowing off the presence of racism in this discussion. Nor did I say you said it was the ONLY reason. Although it seems to be the one you're pushing the hardest. Go back and look at what I said. I said that I don't think you're putting enough "emphasis" on the contentious relationship that Bonds had with the media before this all began. I'm just saying dig a little deeper. That's all. Well, that's where we differ because I think the witch hunt is hiding behind his "contentious relationship with the media" and a lot of it is racism-driven. I think people put entirely too much "emphasis" on how he treats the media. The media isn't that fucked up over how Bonds "treats" them. nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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MuthaFunka said: violator said: No, I'm not blowing off the presence of racism in this discussion. Nor did I say you said it was the ONLY reason. Although it seems to be the one you're pushing the hardest. Go back and look at what I said. I said that I don't think you're putting enough "emphasis" on the contentious relationship that Bonds had with the media before this all began. I'm just saying dig a little deeper. That's all. Well, that's where we differ because I think the witch hunt is hiding behind his "contentious relationship with the media" and a lot of it is racism-driven. I think people put entirely too much "emphasis" on how he treats the media. The media isn't that fucked up over how Bonds "treats" them. It's perfectly fine to feel that way, but understand that you have nothing factual to base it on. The media's relationship with Bonds, regardless of how you or I feel about it, is well documented. And that documentation (in print and video) started long before Bonds began his assault on Aarons' record. It seems much more likely to me that when a person, for whom the media has always been at odds, is found to have used steroids in breaking one of the most hallowed records in all of sports, the venom that is being directed towards him would be an extension of that relationship rather than allegations of racism. [Edited 12/14/07 20:25pm] | |
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MuthaFunka said: Like I said, they're already spinning Clemens' roid bust as "hearsay" but they've already convicted Bonds with that exact same "hearsay". And let me help clear up something. Because I believe this speaks directly to your position. At present time, it is alleged through hearsay that Clemens used steroids. It is a fact, not hearsay, that Barry Bonds used steroids. He testified to having used steroids. What Bonds contests is that he used them knowingly. It is indisputable fact that he used 'human-growth hormone' called 'The Cream' and another called 'The Clear'. The reason he's being indicted now is that the federal government believes that they can prove he knowingly used them, and therefore perjured himself back in 2003. | |
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violator said: MuthaFunka said: Like I said, they're already spinning Clemens' roid bust as "hearsay" but they've already convicted Bonds with that exact same "hearsay". And let me help clear up something. Because I believe this speaks directly to your position. At present time, it is alleged through hearsay that Clemens used steroids. It is a fact, not hearsay, that Barry Bonds used steroids. He testified to having used steroids. What Bonds contests is that he used them knowingly. It is indisputable fact that he used 'human-growth hormone' called 'The Cream' and another called 'The Clear'. The reason he's being indicted now is that the federal government believes that they can prove he knowingly used them, and therefore perjured himself back in 2003. The question will mainly be is there the same proof on Bonds that there is on Clemens. Truth is no one knows yet what proof they have on anyone,if they have anything but "hearsay", lets face Canseco's book is hearsay, all of it is hearsay unless there is cold hard facts. I dont doubt that they have been going after Bonds for awhile now, but i also think they want Mcgwire too but they couldnt get any proof on him, the same with Sammy Sosa who i think did them also. Jose Canseco can say what he wants but he did them more than anyone, and didnt turn anyone in till he got jealous of everyone else breaking records and making money, and was safely out of the game. So im not doubting there are witch hunts but i think they have got alot of proof on alot of players and more heads will roll besides Bonds. And he might also do time for his perjury and no hes not the first to do time, Pete Rose did time, Willie Wilson did time back in the early 80's for coke, and so did Willie Aikens also for coke. I think as a side note steroids may prolong careers and lead to Homeruns but the end result is pretty bad, case in point, during the 2006 season when the Mets had a 20 year reunion of players from the 86 world series team, Lenny Dykstra, who is on the "list" for steroids during his last years in baseball with the phillies, he was in bad shape, i mean he was a borderline vegetable, he could speak but he seemed totally un-coherent, very sad, something for many of these guys to look forward too. [Edited 12/14/07 21:36pm] "We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F | |
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lastdecember said: violator said: And let me help clear up something. Because I believe this speaks directly to your position. At present time, it is alleged through hearsay that Clemens used steroids. It is a fact, not hearsay, that Barry Bonds used steroids. He testified to having used steroids. What Bonds contests is that he used them knowingly. It is indisputable fact that he used 'human-growth hormone' called 'The Cream' and another called 'The Clear'. The reason he's being indicted now is that the federal government believes that they can prove he knowingly used them, and therefore perjured himself back in 2003. The question will mainly be is there the same proof on Bonds that there is on Clemens. Truth is no one knows yet what proof they have on anyone,if they have anything but "hearsay", lets face Canseco's book is hearsay, all of it is hearsay unless there is cold hard facts. I dont doubt that they have been going after Bonds for awhile now, but i also think they want Mcgwire too but they couldnt get any proof on him, the same with Sammy Sosa who i think did them also. Jose Canseco can say what he wants but he did them more than anyone, and didnt turn anyone in till he got jealous of everyone else breaking records and making money, and was safely out of the game. So im not doubting there are witch hunts but i think they have got alot of proof on alot of players and more heads will roll besides Bonds. And he might also do time for his perjury and no hes not the first to do time, Pete Rose did time, Willie Wilson did time back in the early 80's for coke, and so did Willie Aikens also for coke. I think as a side note steroids may prolong careers and lead to Homeruns but the end result is pretty bad, case in point, during the 2006 season when the Mets had a 20 year reunion of players from the 86 world series team, Lenny Dykstra, who is on the "list" for steroids during his last years in baseball with the phillies, he was in bad shape, i mean he was a borderline vegetable, he could speak but he seemed totally un-coherent, very sad, something for many of these guys to look forward too. [Edited 12/14/07 21:36pm] What we don't know yet, is what proof the feds have that Bonds knowingly took steroids. The question of whether he took them has already been answered. McGwire may find a larger role in this yet, but one thing he won't be charged with is perjury. McGwire, vilified as he was for his congressional testimony, knew better than to testify under oath to not having taken steroids. So while his reputation has taken a hit, it'll likely not cost him his freedom. [Edited 12/14/07 21:47pm] | |
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violator said: MuthaFunka said: Well, that's where we differ because I think the witch hunt is hiding behind his "contentious relationship with the media" and a lot of it is racism-driven. I think people put entirely too much "emphasis" on how he treats the media. The media isn't that fucked up over how Bonds "treats" them. It's perfectly fine to feel that way, but understand that you have nothing factual to base it on. The media's relationship with Bonds, regardless of how you or I feel about it, is well documented. And that documentation (in print and video) started long before Bonds began his assault on Aarons' record. It seems much more likely to me that when a person, for whom the media has always been at odds, is found to have used steroids in breaking one of the most hallowed records in all of sports, the venom that is being directed towards him would be an extension of that relationship rather than allegations of racism. [Edited 12/14/07 20:25pm] Yeah, I guess 400 years of slavery and a couple of hundred years of racism and oppression isn't enough to base anything on  . My bad.
Again, we won't ever see eye to eye on this, you won't change my view and I won't change yours, so let's end it here. nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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violator said: MuthaFunka said: Like I said, they're already spinning Clemens' roid bust as "hearsay" but they've already convicted Bonds with that exact same "hearsay". And let me help clear up something. Because I believe this speaks directly to your position. At present time, it is alleged through hearsay that Clemens used steroids. It is a fact, not hearsay, that Barry Bonds used steroids. He testified to having used steroids. What Bonds contests is that he used them knowingly. It is indisputable fact that he used 'human-growth hormone' called 'The Cream' and another called 'The Clear'. The reason he's being indicted now is that the federal government believes that they can prove he knowingly used them, and therefore perjured himself back in 2003. Before the designer roids issue even came up they had already convicted him in the court of public opinion off the hearsay. Now you will see folk hollering "hearsay" on behalf of Clemens. Costas already got the ball rolling on that one. nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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violator said: Graycap23 said: True but regardless of that, they called the man a liar. And you think that warrants an apology from the media? Acknowledgement perhaps, but it'd be a stretch to say he deserves an apology. It's a matter of semantics. They labelled Canseco a lair at best but it appears he was telling the truth regarless of how they feel about Jose. | |
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MuthaFunka said: Yeah, I guess 400 years of slavery and a couple of hundred years of racism and oppression isn't enough to base anything on . My bad.
Where it's applicable... Yes. You've yet to demonstrate that. Unless you qualify highlighting that Bonds is Black and the media that criticizes him is largely white as evidence. By that standard, any critique of a black athlete from a white writer would qualify as racist. Sounds like a pretty shaky argument to me. Specifically, it sounds like you're playing the race card in light of presenting anything substantive to this discussion. | |
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MuthaFunka said: violator said: And let me help clear up something. Because I believe this speaks directly to your position. At present time, it is alleged through hearsay that Clemens used steroids. It is a fact, not hearsay, that Barry Bonds used steroids. He testified to having used steroids. What Bonds contests is that he used them knowingly. It is indisputable fact that he used 'human-growth hormone' called 'The Cream' and another called 'The Clear'. The reason he's being indicted now is that the federal government believes that they can prove he knowingly used them, and therefore perjured himself back in 2003. Before the designer roids issue even came up they had already convicted him in the court of public opinion off the hearsay. Now you will see folk hollering "hearsay" on behalf of Clemens. Costas already got the ball rolling on that one. No one convicted him of anything before Balco broke. Was there talk of suspected steroid use? Yes. Was it merited? I think so. You can't ignore the radical change in Bonds' physique nor the sudden and dramatic increase in his power numbers at a time in his career when typically they would be decreasing. Specifically Bonds went from about 180 to 228. His cleat size from 10 1/2 to 13. And his cap size from 7 1/8 to 7 1/2 despite the fact that he keeps his head shaven now. With these sudden physical changes comes a career 30 - 40 HR per year guy hitting 73 HR's in 2001. I'm sorry, but on planet earth, that merits scrutiny. And when it was all said and done, the scrutiny was valid because Bonds was, in fact, using steroids. | |
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Graycap23 said: violator said: And you think that warrants an apology from the media? Acknowledgement perhaps, but it'd be a stretch to say he deserves an apology. It's a matter of semantics. They labelled Canseco a lair at best but it appears he was telling the truth regarless of how they feel about Jose. Certainly, the widespread skepticism that intitally greeted Canseco appears to be misplaced. But considering the source, I understand why it happened. Yes, there should be an acknowledgement that Canseco was largely on the mark with the things he alleged. I wouldn't hold my breath for an apology though, if I were him. | |
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violator said: MuthaFunka said: Yeah, I guess 400 years of slavery and a couple of hundred years of racism and oppression isn't enough to base anything on . My bad.
Where it's applicable... Yes. You've yet to demonstrate that. Unless you qualify highlighting that Bonds is Black and the media that criticizes him is largely white as evidence. By that standard, any critique of a black athlete from a white writer would qualify as racist. Sounds like a pretty shaky argument to me. Specifically, it sounds like you're playing the race card in light of presenting anything substantive to this discussion. The thing is Bonds is dumb, he should have pulled the Mcwire and took the 5th and not spoken and yet he went under oath, now he can be charged along with quite a few others like Rafael Palmiero who is also going to be indicted which for some reason he never gets mentioned in any debate, as quite possibly Paul Loduca could one of the first "current" ball players to also have to go to court since there is documented proof against him. For the Reynolds i also heard Harold Reynolds make a similar even more pro Clemens remark than Costas did, so what do we call Mr. Reynolds? because he has been weighing in on this all year and not often speaking too kindly of Barry. As far as Canseco, well i cant give this guy any "cred" regardless of what he says because he's getting paid for his books and he was a big part of the problem, so for people to even take his side and think of him as some sort of noble person is a joke, hes a lowlife and always has been since day one in Oakland. He cried foul when he couldnt get his old ass signed by any teams, because he did so much "roids" that he couldnt he see straight, he doesnt alright now let me speak up, thats not noble people, thats like killing 200 people and then saying this is wrong and talking about the others that were in on the killing and then getting paid for the info. Overall i have been hearing nothing but negative things on clemens all day, so it really doesnt matter what costas says because he has no relevance in the sports world except as an analyst, big deal, he's no one. All these guys in the end will either have to answer in court or whatever depending on the evidence what costas thinks or feels has no bearing in the world. "We went where our music was appreciated, and that was everywhere but the USA, we knew we had fans, but there is only so much of the world you can play at once" Magne F | |
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violator said: MuthaFunka said: Yeah, I guess 400 years of slavery and a couple of hundred years of racism and oppression isn't enough to base anything on . My bad.
Where it's applicable... Yes. You've yet to demonstrate that. Unless you qualify highlighting that Bonds is Black and the media that criticizes him is largely white as evidence. By that standard, any critique of a black athlete from a white writer would qualify as racist. Sounds like a pretty shaky argument to me. Specifically, it sounds like you're playing the race card in light of presenting anything substantive to this discussion. Ah, yes. here we have someone throwing out the ole "You're playing the race card" just because they refuse to believe racism plays a role in this, even though this same person has admitted that racism is a problem in this country. Like I said, you're not fully equipped to handle this discussion because you refuse to believe that race plays a part in the witch hunt of Barry Bonds. This is why you and I won't get anywhere on this discussion. nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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violator said: MuthaFunka said: Before the designer roids issue even came up they had already convicted him in the court of public opinion off the hearsay. Now you will see folk hollering "hearsay" on behalf of Clemens. Costas already got the ball rolling on that one. No one convicted him of anything before Balco broke. Was there talk of suspected steroid use? Yes. Was it merited? I think so. You can't ignore the radical change in Bonds' physique nor the sudden and dramatic increase in his power numbers at a time in his career when typically they would be decreasing. Specifically Bonds went from about 180 to 228. His cleat size from 10 1/2 to 13. And his cap size from 7 1/8 to 7 1/2 despite the fact that he keeps his head shaven now. With these sudden physical changes comes a career 30 - 40 HR per year guy hitting 73 HR's in 2001. I'm sorry, but on planet earth, that merits scrutiny. And when it was all said and done, the scrutiny was valid because Bonds was, in fact, using steroids. That's bullshit. They had already started talking about his body changes before BALCO broke. The public convicted him as well as the media. The funny shit is, Clemens was mentioned in Conseco's book and yet no one took him seriously, even when Jose said that Clemens' body changed. So tell me why no one truly questioned Rocket's body changes yet they had no problem in questioning Bonds'? nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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MuthaFunka said: Ah, yes. here we have someone throwing out the ole "You're playing the race card" just because they refuse to believe racism plays a role in this, even though this same person has admitted that racism is a problem in this country. Like I said, you're not fully equipped to handle this discussion because you refuse to believe that race plays a part in the witch hunt of Barry Bonds. This is why you and I won't get anywhere on this discussion. Admitting that racism exists is not the same as saying it's applicable to this particular situation. Show me something that merits the belief that the media's criticism of Bonds is race-driven and maybe I'll begin to understand your position. But simply stating it's racist because Bonds is black and the media is white is not proof of anything. | |
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MuthaFunka said: violator said: No one convicted him of anything before Balco broke. Was there talk of suspected steroid use? Yes. Was it merited? I think so. You can't ignore the radical change in Bonds' physique nor the sudden and dramatic increase in his power numbers at a time in his career when typically they would be decreasing. Specifically Bonds went from about 180 to 228. His cleat size from 10 1/2 to 13. And his cap size from 7 1/8 to 7 1/2 despite the fact that he keeps his head shaven now. With these sudden physical changes comes a career 30 - 40 HR per year guy hitting 73 HR's in 2001. I'm sorry, but on planet earth, that merits scrutiny. And when it was all said and done, the scrutiny was valid because Bonds was, in fact, using steroids. That's bullshit. They had already started talking about his body changes before BALCO broke. The public convicted him as well as the media. The funny shit is, Clemens was mentioned in Conseco's book and yet no one took him seriously, even when Jose said that Clemens' body changed. So tell me why no one truly questioned Rocket's body changes yet they had no problem in questioning Bonds'? Okay, now you're just flailing wildly. Read my post. I acknowledged that there was talk about his body changes before BALCO. That does not equal a conviction. I think the talk was valid and with merit. Do you honestly think that people are going to ignore all the physical changes and performance spikes that Bonds showed at that time? It was unprecedented and unnatural. And as we now know that he was a steroid user, it was right on the mark. | |
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violator said: MuthaFunka said: Ah, yes. here we have someone throwing out the ole "You're playing the race card" just because they refuse to believe racism plays a role in this, even though this same person has admitted that racism is a problem in this country. Like I said, you're not fully equipped to handle this discussion because you refuse to believe that race plays a part in the witch hunt of Barry Bonds. This is why you and I won't get anywhere on this discussion. Admitting that racism exists is not the same as saying it's applicable to this particular situation. Show me something that merits the belief that the media's criticism of Bonds is race-driven and maybe I'll begin to understand your position. But simply stating it's racist because Bonds is black and the media is white is not proof of anything. Let's just do this: Do you believe that racism has played a role in Bonds witch hunt? nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
MuthaFunka - Black...by popular demand | |
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violator said: MuthaFunka said: Ah, yes. here we have someone throwing out the ole "You're playing the race card" just because they refuse to believe racism plays a role in this, even though this same person has admitted that racism is a problem in this country. Like I said, you're not fully equipped to handle this discussion because you refuse to believe that race plays a part in the witch hunt of Barry Bonds. This is why you and I won't get anywhere on this discussion. Admitting that racism exists is not the same as saying it's applicable to this particular situation. Show me something that merits the belief that the media's criticism of Bonds is race-driven and maybe I'll begin to understand your position. But simply stating it's racist because Bonds is black and the media is white is not proof of anything. Color plays a role but the fact that Bonds has been an asshole from day one plays a bigger role. If Bonds had been steping and fetching 4 years it may be a different tone 2 all of this. [Edited 12/15/07 9:47am] | |
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Graycap23 said: Color plays a role but the fact that Bonds has been an asshole from day one plays a bigger role. If Bonds had been steping and fetching 4 years it may be a different tone 2 all of this.
[Edited 12/15/07 9:47am] I agree with you in part. His relationship with the media is the single biggest driver in why he's going to be treated differently than other athletes connected to steroids. It's not even about "steping and fetching"... if the dude had just been decent, he'd be catching much less hell today. | |
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MuthaFunka said: violator said: Admitting that racism exists is not the same as saying it's applicable to this particular situation. Show me something that merits the belief that the media's criticism of Bonds is race-driven and maybe I'll begin to understand your position. But simply stating it's racist because Bonds is black and the media is white is not proof of anything. Let's just do this: Do you believe that racism has played a role in Bonds witch hunt? I can't say for certain. Would it surprise if there was a race-based agenda on the part of certain members of the media where Bonds is concerned? No, not at all. But the much larger issue of why he's crucified on this, and really everything else he's done, is because he has been vilified his entire career and has always had a contentious relationship with that same media. In short, Bonds is an asshole and always has been. He's been sullen, rude and disrespectful where the press is concerned. They hate him for it. And now that he's connected to steroid use, they're gonna hammer him on it. | |
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violator said: MuthaFunka said: Let's just do this: Do you believe that racism has played a role in Bonds witch hunt? I can't say for certain. Would it surprise if there was a race-based agenda on the part of certain members of the media where Bonds is concerned? No, not at all. But the much larger issue of why he's crucified on this, and really everything else he's done, is because he has been vilified his entire career and has always had a contentious relationship with that same media. In short, Bonds is an asshole and always has been. He's been sullen, rude and disrespectful where the press is concerned. They hate him for it. And now that he's connected to steroid use, they're gonna hammer him on it. And that's exactly why we can't continue this conversation. nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
MuthaFunka - Black...by popular demand | |
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Graycap23 said: violator said: Admitting that racism exists is not the same as saying it's applicable to this particular situation. Show me something that merits the belief that the media's criticism of Bonds is race-driven and maybe I'll begin to understand your position. But simply stating it's racist because Bonds is black and the media is white is not proof of anything. Color plays a role but the fact that Bonds has been an asshole from day one plays a bigger role. If Bonds had been steping and fetching 4 years it may be a different tone 2 all of this. [Edited 12/15/07 9:47am] Exactly. What Violator fails to realize is that there's a perception of how white America (media included) wants to see successful Black men. They want to see them grateful and humble for being able to make such huge amounts of money and play their "puppet" so they can say "Dance, boy! Dance!" whenever they feel like it. Bonds won't play that game and that pisses some people - especially the racists of America. nWo: bboy87 - Timmy84 - LittleBlueCorvette - MuthaFunka - phunkdaddy - Christopher
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MuthaFunka said:[quote] violator said: I can't say for certain. It's crystal clear by the quality of your argument that you don't know. Your case is built entirely on supposition and cliche. And maybe that makes for persuasive discussion where you're from, but it doesn't fly here. It's no different from that predictable and tired statement Rush Limbaugh made when he claimed that Donovan McNabb was an overrated quarterback. Instead of building his case on a factual sports argument, he made the weak claim that the "media was desirous of seeing a black quarterback succeed". The fact is, Limbaugh no more knew what the motivations were of the media in respect to seeing McNabb succeed than you do in the motivations of seeing Bonds fail. Although in Bonds case, at least the contempt for him as always been there. There are plenty of worthy arguments for you to make where racial injustice is concerned. Unfortunately, in this thread you've only managed to come off as the boy who cried wolf. This just isn't one of your better arguments. | |
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