MJ. MJ got rid of his coach. Magic. Magic got rid of his coach. Arrogance is a part of professional sports. There's no way in hell you can make it to the pro level of ANY sport without being arrogant. Now, this was never about arrogance, but ego. You had 4 egos clashing in L.A.: Buss, Phil, Shaq, and Kobe. Too many egos so some had to go.

Now, I'm not bashing Shaq or making Kobe out to be an angel, I'm just telling you how it went down out here. Titles start and end with a Big Man unless you're MJ and you never have to face a dominant Center in the Finals like he was fortunate enough to do.



I hate when people say that other players make players better. That's bullshit. Great players make the game EASIER for players. It's up to THAT player to make himself better. Plus, Magis had Kareem, Wilkes, and Worthy to make better...dudes that were already good, so that's why a great player can't make anyone better, it's up to the player himself to get better. You can lead all you want, but if that person doesn't want to follow you then you lead no one. That player has to choose to follow you.



In Kobe's defense, this is his 2nd year with a team that still has players that were built around Shaq, so let's hold off until Kobe has a team that suits his game around him and then we can properly assess Kobe's regime.



They BOTH are responsible. Period. Kobe was a ho for diming out Shaq and Shaq was a ho for telling Kobe to pass the ball more until he gets his legs under him. Now, as far as Shaq being sold for peanuts, that was some of Shaq's doing because he refused to get in shape over the last 2 seasons. His body was breaking down, they had just lost the Finals, and he gave no assurances that he was gonna rehab and condition his body yet he wanted a contract extension for something like 30 million?

Naw, you can't give a dude in that condition that kind of money along with knowing you may lose the younger phenom because of his presence there anyway. Buss gambled right. The only fucked up part was how Shaq got in shape for the Heat but NOT for the Lakers. That was some ho shit right there.



And that's my point. Shaq is vocal which makes his ego bigger. Again, anytime a man sits there and says "I'm gonna make Wade the greatest player ever"...how can you NOT say the dude has the bigger ego? Kobe doesn't go out there saying shit like that.



I don't care what the man was going thru, Kobe had a right to defend himself. Simple as that. Just because he had a rape case over his head doesn't mean he had to take shots from a dude that's been taking shots at him since 1996. Fuck that. I'm gonna speak out on you too, rape case over my head or not.



Because Kobe knew he'd be the focus of the Offense and not Shaq. And again, that team still had Shaq-players and not Kobe-players.



Kobe and Shaq were the common denominators. Not once have I discluded either players for their role in it, but don't act like Shaq wasn't part of the problem either. Shaq helped in all of this just as much as Kobe. Shaq calling Kobe for years "Boy Wonder" whenever Shaq felt that Kobe was "doing too much", what was THAT all about? Shaq saying "If the big dog don't get fed he won't protect the house" meaning that if he didn't get the ball more he wasn't gonna play Defense. What the fuck? How do you just say some shit like that PUBLICLY?

So yeah, BOTH of those cats were to blame, along with Phil claiming that Kobe tanked games in high school just so he could bring them back in the 4th quarter. What was THAT shit about? So include Phil in some of this as well. Then add the departure of The Logo - Jerry West - and you have the makings of powder keg with a few matches readily available to light that shit.

StoneCrib said:[quote
So yeah, BOTH of those cats were to blame, along with Phil claiming that Kobe tanked games in high school just so he could bring them back in the 4th quarter. What was THAT shit about? So include Phil in some of this as well. Then add the departure of The Logo - Jerry West - and you have the makings of powder keg with a few matches readily available to light that shit.[/quote]

No doubt you have some good points here. I'll just say this, KOBE will NOT win another title in the NBA. Print this and put it in your freezer.
You can add the likes of Allen Iverson, Marbury, and few others to this list.

Graycap23 said:

Well, you never know. Kobe's gonna more than likely need a dominant bigs to get him another title.

StoneCrib said:

If he were anywhere close to what he THINKS he is.....he would not need a big man to get his title. His ONLY goal is to leave the game being considered GREATER than Jordan. It's NOT going to happen.

july said:

Graycap23 said:

Well, every great guard needed a big man to win a title, bro. MJ was the exception because he never faced another guard that had a dominant Center in the Finals.

StoneCrib said:

I'm not arguing that point. I know that, u know that, the world knows that.... KOBE does NOT know that.

Graycap23 said:

If he doesn't, Kobe will soon know it as well.

The question wasn't name another superstar who got a coach fired. The question was name another superstar in Kobe's shoes who did what he did. There's a difference.

1. MJ got rid of his coach because they kept losing to Detroit and he kept taking a beating in the process.

2. Magic got Westhead fired AFTER Magic had established he could lead his team to a title.

Neither had a HOF talent like Shaq or a HOF coach like Jax in their situation.

Incidentally, Magic told Kobe he needed a big man to really contend. Pippen was quoted as saying that MJ -- EVEN MJ -- would have found a way to play with Shaq knowing he was the golden ticket to the Finals. Kobe was so busy jocking himself that he didn't know or care.



Agreed.





You're splitting hairs and you don't need to do so. Is there REALLY a difference between "better" and "easier" if easier translates to more opportunities to increase your stats, win more games and compete for and win titles?




They're cap-strapped until 2008, by that time Kobe will be 30. He'll spend a good balance of his prime years with a team in rebuilding. The Suns, Spurs, Kings, Clips, and of course Mavs will be as strong or stronger than they were this year. Especially the Suns, who get Stoudemire and Kurt Thomas back. The Lakers, in contrast, will remain essentially the same. Barring a KG trade, the Lakers are 2-3 years away.




The trade was not of Shaq's doing. The Lakers had to undertake a fire sale for him to convince Kobe to resign. He FORCED them to empty the cupboard before he'd return.

Kobe holds the lion's share of the blame. Shaq gets his fair share too.



I would have rather had NEITHER of them back if Kobe couldn't have been patient enough to re-sign and wait for the Lakers to trade him to get more value.

Shaq had his problems, and still does, but I submit to you that Kobe's off-court distractions and infighting in '03-'04 were just as harmful to the team as Shaq's physical condition.




It just means Shaq is more direct. Not more egotistical.

Have you seen what Wade has done since Shaq arrived? He's blossomed into a superstar and he HIMSELF gives a lot of credit to Shaq. Why? Because, to use your phrase, he's made the game "easier" for him. Like he did for Kobe and Penny before Wade.



A leader who's causing distractions by his own error in judgment shouldn't exacerbate the situation. He should try to resolve it internally for the best interests of THE TEAM. If you want to be The Man, occasionally you have to act like him.

And it's not like the shots had been one-sided since 1996. Kobe is a master of passive-aggressiveness. Ask Phil.





Half of that roster was comprised of players acquired AFTER the Shaq trade and other players acquired to suit the run-and-gun style Buss and Kobe wanted. Point is, Kobe didn't like the triangle until he saw what life without it was like. And he came to the same conclusion, grudgingly, with Phil.





I did in my earlier post. See above.



It is punkish. But Shaq Was The Man Until Phil Said Otherwise. Shaq knew it, Phil knew it, and Kobe's balking at it, knowing he had Buss' sympathies, had a lot to do with the discord. As the Rock said, know your role. And wait your turn. Kobe couldn't do it. Shaq may have vented, but Kobe's bad judgment on the court caused a lot of that.



It was about doing something -- anything -- to get Kobe's attention. The man has nine rings. He knows what he's doing. It is a testament to Kobe's arrogance that he never listened.



I blame Phil least of all.

namepeace said:

Excellent. I'm with u on this one.

How is that a difference? It ALL takes arrogance to do either of those acts, whether it's getting a coach fired or getting rid of a player. Just because it's a player you happen not to like doesn't make it an excuse. All you're doing is trying to single it out to Kobe vs Shaq. You can't call Kobe arrogant without calling MJ, Magic, and Shaq arrogant. Plain and simple.



No, it's not splitting hairs because if you make someone better then they should be able to maintain that level without you. Now, let's say MJ made BJ Armstrong better...what happened to him after he left Chi and went to GSW and then the Hornets and averaged 2pts a game from 12pts being with MJ. So if he made him better, why didn't he continue that on other teams? Making someone better and making the game easier are 2 different things. It's easy to make Kareem "better", try making Luc Longley better. See my point? Great players make the game easier for their teammates, they put them in better situations to be successful, but that player himself can only make himself better.



They would have been capped strapped even with Shaq, so what's the difference? One guy has more years left and the other is about to be gone within the next 2 seasons or less.



Shaq asked for the trade. Plain and simple. After Phil was fired Shaq saw the writing on the wall and to save grace he demanded a trade rather stay their and have the team retooled to fit Kobe's game. So, it was both their doing. I wouldn't say anyone had a lion's share either way though. 2 big egos. 2 big problems.



Wait to tade who, Shaq? And again, I place the blame on both of them. I've been saying that. It took both of them to fuck up that dynasty.



No, it means Shaq's ego HAS to find the limelight, somehow, some way. It's a drug for Shaq and anyone that knows Shaq knows that he's a limelight hound. That's his ego.

Wade was gonna blossom anyway. We saw Wade in 03 when he led the Heat to the 2nd round, so that was coming whether or not Shaq got there or not. Shaq made the game easier for Kobe and Penny and Wade but those dudes were ballers when he wasn't around as well. Check Kobe's 35pts a game this season minus Diesel.



Then you should hold Shaq to those same standards, right? You can't have it one way for Kobe and another way for Shaq. Shaq's a leader, he should kept his comments internal just like you want Kobe to do. So if you're gonna criticize Kobe then you HAVE to criticize Shaq for acting like a bitch the same way KB did. And, again, when did I say it was just one-sided? Hell, even Phil took shots at Kobe.



Right. One season removed from Shaq and you expect them to click with just HALF a team built for Kobe? Be resonable. The ONLY reason he accepted Phillip's return was because he KNEW he was gonna be the focus in the triangle.



Right. Like I posted on a Laker site, it was 4 prong ego thing: Shaq, Kobe, Phil, and Buss. And Buss is the final say-so in all of this, so you have to start there when placing blame.



So the way to get thru to Kobe was to accuse him of tanking his high school games for heroic purposes? Is that your stance?

StoneCrib said:

Remember the question. The question involved who had the biggest ego in the history of the league. Bottom line is, Kobe triggered the instant dismantling of a perennial contender. MJ didn't send Pip and Ho Grant packing with Collins. Magic didn't send Kareem packing with Westhead. Rings Collins won: 0. Rings Westhead won as coach: 0 Combined rings of Shaq and Phil: 12.
Year after Magic axed Westhead: title. Two years after MJ whacked Collins: the 1st of three straight. Neither tossed the baby out with the bathwater.

So who was the MOST arrogant of Magic, MJ and Kobe?




That's a little clearer, but when none other than Magic himself says great players make other players better, I believe Magic.

When Pippen is a HOFer because of playing with Jordan, it lends credence to what Magic said.

When D-Wade is a talented player who blossoms into a superstar playing alongside Shaq, it lends credence to what Magic said.

Now, does that mean one player can improve one's physical abilities? Of course not. But enhancing one's basketball IQ does make a player better, true?

So if your presence allows a player to make better use of their talents, and increases their abilities to comprehend the game, where does that leave you?

That leaves you better than you were before.



Ask the Heat, who are "playing" for the title.

Plus, if Kobe waits his turn and wins a title or two more with Shaq, he sits in Wades shoes right now, carries none of the baggage, and has more credibility attracting other talent to play with him after Shaq is gone.



Shaq was told he was expendable and Kobe was not. Then Phil was fired. Then reports come in that Shaq is about to be traded (as I recall, he first learned of these reports via his wife). So, in keeping with his ego, which we both admit is large, he wanted to save face by claiming he "asked" for a trade. So the "ask" wasn't really an "ask."

And let me ask you this: if a HOFer says he can't play with you, and a HOFer says he can't coach you, then who's the biggest of the three problems? One of them, or you?



Yes. Wait to trade Shaq. Why would you think the team could trade Shaq for nothing and not lose a good part of your career? It wasn't in the best interests of the franchise.



Wade reached superstar status quicker because of Shaq.

And Kobe's 35 ppg is no more indicative of the fact that there was no other viable second option. And that's the way Kobe wanted it. It's an impressive individual feat, but when you're the only viable offensive option on a team that will defer to you because you want it that way and the FO backs you up, you better damn well score that many points.



Sure Shaq deserves some blame. However comma.

Shaq got along with the coach. Shaq was the clubhouse leader -- a role Kobe didn't even act like he wanted. Shaq never demanded a Kobe trade, to my knowledge. As much as Shaq did, he had the guys and the coach on his side and he was the unquestioned MVP of the team. And Phil takes shots at his players when he believes they are deserved. There's so much we didn't see off the court or couldn't notice as laypersons on the court. For all of his faults, the team listened to Shaq. So he must have been doing some things right. Unlike Shaq, Kobe rarely, if ever, demonstrated leadership but he wanted to be a leader, and undermined guys on his own team with unassailable championship credentials that were leaders.

And let us not forget . . . even AFTER Shaq was gone, he continued to go after players he thought would undermine his leadership. Remember the flap with Karl Malone?




"Reason" dictates thus:

1. Shaq and Phil gone, no triangle -- worst Laker season in a 1/4 century.

2. Phil comes back with most of the same roster -- 10+ more wins, playoff berth.

3. If Shaq, Kobe and Phil are together -- contender for 3-5 years.

4. Shaq and Phil gone because of Kobe.

Therefore, Kobe brought this on himself and the facts don't lie.




And like I posted on a Laker site, Kobe was the common denominator.

Shaq and KOBE -- couldn't get along.

Phil and KOBE -- couldn't get along.

Buss loved KOBE.

So who's fingerprints appear moreso than anyone else's?

As Laker fans we should thank the good lord that Phil came back.



My stance is that the greatest coach of all time -- a guy the greatest player of all time heeded -- had to go to extremes to get through to him. He tried everything. Nothing worked. Kobe was so arrogant he wouldn't listen to one of the greatest coaches of all time in any sport. Mattafact, he had to go out there on his own and get his ass kicked to realize he needed Phil.

He brought this on himself.

The fact that all four deserve blame doesn't mean that one person isn't to be blamed the most.
[Edited 6/12/06 17:29pm]

Again, you want to blame Kobe and not Shaq. The dismantling was inevitable since they both couldn't co-exist, so why put the sole blame on Kobe? They BOTH destroued that dynasty, not JUST Kobe. You have to be arrogant t get rid of a coach that led you to the Finals (Magic); you have to be arrogant to get rid of a coach after your 5th year (MJ). And my initial comment had nothing to do with arrogance so why do you keep bringing arrogance up? This was about a clash of egos not arrogance.



Well Magic had Worthy and Kareem to "make better" so Magic is a bit tainted in that sense. Pippen's D wasn't played by Jordan was it? Jordan didn't guide Pipen's shots into the basket, did he? Pippen took it upon himself to make himself better and after MJ left he was still a dominant player in 94 and 95. MJ didn't make Pippen better, Pippen made Pippen better. Wade was headed to superstardom after his rookie season, it was evident and most hoop aficianados would agree with that. You can't enhance anyone's IQ unless they're willing to learn. If it was as simple as getting a better hoop IQ then there would be more players like MJ to which we both know that isn't the case. Making one's self better COMPLETELY depends on that one person.



You mean the same Heat who's aging big man scored a whopping 5 points last night, his ALL TIME PLAYOFF LOW? The same man that SKIPPED the press conference because he can't dominate a series anymore? The same Heat down 2 to zero? That same Heat, right?



I don't think Kobe is concerned about any of that. Kobe is a loner and is only obsessed by being the best and I'm sure he knows that comes at a particular cost.



Yeah, Mitch opened his mouth and said that they'd take offers on ALL the players, including Shaq and we ALL know how sensitive Shaq is. Phil got fired and THEN Shaq DEMANDED a trade. That's EXACTLY how the series of events came down AFTER the Lakers made an offer to Shaq and he declined it.

Shaq AND Kobe were the biggest of the problems. I guess you want to place more blame on Kobe, that's your right but I don't deal in absolutes when it comes to fame and money because there are too many players in that game to just try and pin it on one man.



Wait for what deal then? Tell me what deal was out there? Who were thy waiting for? See, the entire league saw Shaq falling apart so the Lakers really didn't have as big of a bargaining chip as you may have thought at that time.



Not in the least. Wade balled for 20 games when Shaq was out this season. Wade balled in the 1st 2 rounds of the 03-04 playoffs while Shaq was a Laker. His superstardom was imminent. Shaq's presence didn't expedite it to the least bit.

Kobe's 35pts is MORE astonishing BECAUSE there was no 2nd option and teams could KEY IN on JUST Kobe. It's remniscent of Barry Sanders in Detroit: Teams knew that's ALL they had and they STILL couldn't stop him.



Shaq's never been a great leader. Shaq was always leader by default - his size. Shaq's has never been known to be a great leader. Kobe never got a chance to lead while Shaq was there so I don't know why you'd say Kobe didn't embrace being a leader. Phil can take those shots at his players PRIVATELY, can't he? You want Kobe to do it, but not Phil? Why not? The team didn't "listen" to Shaq as much as they "understood" it was HIS team because he was the most dominant player in the game. Big difference. Kobe never wanted to be a leader of the team, he just wanted more freedom under the triangle, that's all.



You do know you left out the fact that Kobe and Odom missed a total of 34 games that season, right? Kind of hard to gauge this off one season, especially when your 1st and 2nd option have missed 34 games. Be reasonable.



Shaq didn't get along with Penny. Was Shaq the common denominator there? Shaq has an issue with sharing the limelight. He was jealous of Penny with the commercials and the Nike endorsement and he didn't like sharing the light with KB. The ONLY reason he's doing it now with Wade is to prove a point but it's eating him up inside that he has to put on this over-the-top love-fest with Wade.



Then if he in fact IS the greatest coach of all time...you mean to tell me the BEST the GREATEST COACH OF ALL TIME could do is to ACCUSE Kobe of throwing his HIGH SCHOOL games? C'mon, playa, you gotta come better than that. Phil was wrong. Period. I don't care how many titles that man has, he was dead wrong to go there and he knows it.

Blame is blame. Like you said WE don't know what EXACTLY happened behind closed doors so to try and put MORE blame on the other makes no sense to begin with. We may never know who was more at fault.

Shaq is getting what he deserves. If he would have stayed in LA he would still be getting rings, but because of his crazed greed and ego, he is now going to get his ass handed to him by my boy, Dirk. That ugly white boy is schooling that drooling, bald, idiot. haha.

Shaq wants to be a cop. Hell, let him retire, become a real cop, then he can get his jollies, rolling on other black men. I bet he would love to do that. Impress his white boy friends--the dead guys on his fucking blood money.

2freaky4church1 said:

But again, you're missing the fact that I blamed Shaq many times. In this thread, on the laker blogs, etc. But I still can't get a straight answer out of you on my original question. It should be readily evident to you why arrogance is brought up when ego is discussed in this context. So I'll rephrase, since we're splitting hairs.

Name one other player in the NBA who has had such a big ego that he triggered (and yessuh, he DID trigger) the trading of the team's franchise player and HOF coach in a matter of weeks, reducing his team from perennial contender to lottery participant overnight.



We're gonna have to disagree on this one. I doubt you'd find many athletes or coaches who can take all the credit for making themselves better.



Where are the Heat?

And where are the Lakers?

Miami's stinking up the place, because Dallas is proving to be the better team thus far, but the Lakers blew a 3-1 series lead and they're watching at home, just like us.

The point stands. With Shaq you have a better chance to contend with a title than without him.

(by the way, Kobe really showed up HUGE in Game 7, didn't he?)



Bingo. The Anti-Magic . . . a self-obsessed superstar who wants to be the center of the show no matter what the cost. The team could crumble at his feet, but as long as HE'S the best . . . he's happy.




Shaq was told second-hand he was being shopped. Then the Lakers, desperate to sell out for Kobe, sold him for peanuts.

I said most of the blame goes to Kobe. Wanna know why I focus on him more than any others?

1. He exhibited all of the qualities you DON'T want in a franchise player. Arrogance, shortsightedness, and passive-aggressiveness.

2. He's now the franchise player and it's going to be hard to build a real team around him because he hates sharing the spotlight.

And I don't want to hear anything about, "he's still young." He's been in this league 10 years, and he came into the league with every advantage at his fingertips. But LeBron and Wade exhibit more maturity than he does having only been here a fraction of the time.



You know as well as I do that when you trade out of desperation -- to get Kobe to re-sign, which he did THE NEXT DAY -- you sell yourself short. You have little time to weigh options. He was traded hastily. You sit on Shaq's contract, make him sit out, and then trade him when the best deal comes along. They'd have been no worse off.





True, but if you think that Wade would have been just as good, this fast, without Shaq, then you have to believe that Wade himself must be lying when he says it at every opportunity.



That isn't the point. He's been the moving force behind creating this situation for himself.

And but for a few seasons, Barry sat his happy-footed ass at home in January. He was so fed up with the inability to build a real team around him that he retired prematurely.

Now here's a more apt comparison. If Barry had played with Brett Favre and Mike Holmgren, won 3 straight Super Bowls with them, got to the Super Bowl 2 years later with them, and then ran them off so he could be the man . . . how stupid is that?



That's funny . . . his teammates said otherwise. He had his moments, to be sure. But he was the leader.

Kobe, by contrast, brooded, pouted, whined about being "Second banana." Even when they were winning titles. If he weren't going to be the focus of the team, he was going to pout.

Kobe doesn't have the temperament to be a leader. He expects his teammates to bow down to him like Jordan, and he's no MJ. Not even CLOSE.

Kobe would have gotten the same freedom Wade has now, had he just been patient.

Shaq's not a perfect leader, not a perfect athlete, not a perfect person. But he's led three different teams to the Finals in 11 years. What can Kobe do on his own? I hope he justifies your faith. I don't see it.



You keep saying that I should be reasonable.

Well, don't tell nobody, but Shaq and Wade missed games that year too. They still got to the ECF. But for Wade getting hurt before Game 7, who knows what they coulda done?

So, the missed games excuse is a wash comparatively speaking. You still have -- as you do this year -- a Kobe team sitting at home by Memorial Day and a Shaq team contending for a title.

Reason requires the confrontation of hard facts. And the hard fact for a Lakers fan is that Shaq gets you further in the playoffs -- fat, inconsistent, unmotivated, or whatever you want to call him -- than Kobe.




Even if everything you say is true -- and I agree with everything but the last sentence -- He got Penny to the Finals. He's gotten Kobe to the Finals. And he's gotten Wade into the Finals.

Every superstar has an ego. But what you weigh them by is the results they get. Having Shaq gets you IN THE HUNT, SC. You know it. I know it. Phil knew it. Kobe knew it but ignored it.



Flip that question around. How dense, how hard-headed, how stiff-necked is the kid that a coach who's won more titles in basketball than anyone in the last 50 years goes there?

And when his own teammates questioned whether he quit in Sacramento a few years back? When a lot of people question whether he quit in Game 7 this year, or otherwise was trying to send a message? What say you then? It seems that Kobe has a lot to do with those accusations, no?



Now wait a minute. Coaches always challenge players like that. Have you heard some of the things Parcells, Lombardi, and other great coaches have actually SAID to players?

SC, you gotta have a thin skin to let that petty shit get to you if you want to lead a team to a world title. I heard worse in junior high football practice. You wouldn't be that thin-skinned.

It's not like he publicly accused Kobe of hitting on Jeannie Buss. Or called Kobe out for paying off his women when he was being questioned by police..




But, to turn the tables on you, not once have I heard you say anything about Kobe in this entire conversation.

It wasn't Shaq's choice to be traded. It wasn't Phil's choice to be fired.
Both were Kobe's preferences. Both preferences were placated. Circumstantial evidence is damning. But there is more direct evidence. Straight from the source. Phil said in late 2004 that the only person who could have stopped the breakup was Kobe. I'd say he's a credible witness. Would you agree?

I may not like Kobe. Hell, I DON'T like Kobe. But think about the fact that the Lakers have worked against their own interests time and time again to placate this kid. Every time they have, it set them back.

It's a trend that Laker fans ignore at their own peril. The past is instructive when preparing for the future. The Heat got what they wanted -- the player who could help them get to the Finals in a short time. Will the Lakers get what they want? Time will tell.
[Edited 6/12/06 19:51pm]
[Edited 6/12/06 20:13pm]

I've answered you 2 times already, you just don't like my answer because it isn't what you wnat to hear. You want to separate players from coaches when it's ALL in the same ballpark. That's on you if that's what you choose to do, but I've given my response: Magic and MJ. I won't answer again to this same question.



It ALL falls back on the individual. You can teach, but if the student doesn't want to learn, then it's a waste of time. Players make themselves better by putting in the work themselves. Period. No one can do the work for them, it's not like writing a term paper. What a player puts in is exactly what gets out. No other way around that.



The Heat are in the Finals with a Center that's on his last leg. That's my point = FUTURE consideration. Kobe has a longer future than Shaq. Buss made the right deal.


Also sounds a lot like Shaq, don't it? Keep it real. Shaq fucked it up, too.



Shaq found out from Mitch on TV. It was fucked up, but that's how it happened.

Now, as for Kobe, it's hard to build ANY team around ANY perimeter player. You build from the inside out, so Kobe will need a post force to get back to the glory years. Franchise players are arrogant by nature. Hell, the term "franchise player" let's you know that right off the bat. Shaq is arrogant. MJ is arrogant as hell. It all boils down to if you like that person or not. Much like sexual harrassment. LOL!



And that shit would've backfired on you like a vintage Edsel. Because Shaq would have made life hell for the Lakers because his ego would have caused him to start some more shit and teams weren't dumb, they knew the Lakers had to move him, it was no secret so again, what deal was out there? How were you gonna convince a GM to give up their superstar for an aging, out of shape Center? That's all I wanna know?



I hate to tell you this, bro, but players say nice shit for the cameras. Wade doesn't want in ANY way to have him and Shaq's marriage resemble the Shaq/Kobe marriage so he will go out of his way, liek Shaq does to him, to praise him. Wade doesn't truly believe that shit because Wade was a baller before Shaq and he will be after Shaq.



That's YOUR point, that wasn't mine. I was just showing you how great Kobe was WITHOUT Shaq's presence.



Shaq's teammates were cordial by default as well. Shaq was the big dawg, so why tangle with the big dawg? Just go along with the flow. Now all this "Kobe pouting" sounds like you're just hating on the dude, and if that's the case then just say so and we can end this discussion. No one's ever seen KB pout about any of this and you know it.

What Kobe can do on his own is the same as what Shaq has done on his own - Nothing. Shaq didn't go to the Finals by himself, did he? Penny. Kobe. Wade. I'd hardly call that a solo act by Shaq.



C'mon, bro. Keep it real: Shaq missed 9 games and Wade missed 5. Don't even try and compare that to the 34 games Kobe and Odom missed AND in the tough West. Not even close. Now, if you have harder facts than that, bring the noise, but I'm pretty sure you've conceded this particular issue.



But he hasn't gotten to the Finals without a great player next to him. It's a team sport. It does start with a Big Man, but it takes more than just that, ask David Robisnon (Duncan) and Hakeem (Drexler) and Kareem (Oscar/Magic). It's no solo act.


Or how about this - just answer the question I posed to you?: Why would the greatest coach of all time have to sink that low to take a shot at his player? Where was the famous Zen Master at?



That's what you call a challenge? LOL... How is that challenging Kobe to anything? Phil ACCUSED Kobe of tanking games, where's the challenge in all of that, playa? There isn't one. Stop making things up in defense for Phillip.



LOL! WHAT?! I said it's ALL of their faults. Now how does that EXCLUDE Kobe from the equation? I said when he dimed Shaq out in the rape case that was a bitch ass move, I said the dude has a huge ego...what more do you want? I know - You want "It's ALL Kobe's fault" and well, I'm just not that narrowminded nor that jaded, bro. Sorry.

I've come to the conclusion that you just have hateration for Kobe, and that's not uncommon now. I once said that since the Kobe/Shaq breakup there are now 3 types of Lakers fans:

1 - The fan that likes the Lakers regardless of the names on the back of the jerseys.

2 - Shaq fans that hate Kobe and secretly root for the Heat/Shaq while secretly rooting against Kobe's success and take satisfaction in Kobe's downfalls regarding the Lakers.

3 - Kobe fans that hate Shaq and wish nothing but ill-will towards the man for the rest of his life and resort to childish names like "Snaq" and "Fatso."

It sounds like you're #2, bro.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion because I see a pattern in your posts and it's basically "Blame Kobe and really no one else" and you're not gonna back down from that no matter how much info is provided that could prove otherwise or lessen your belief in his involvement to any degree.

You've evaded the answer because you know you can't name another player who's done what Kobe did. Magic and MJ did nothing like what Kobe did. They got coaches fired. They never helped unseat a HOF player and a HOF coach at the same time. Period.



If you want to believe that a player is the only reason he becomes a better player, then that's fine. I happen to believe that players and coaches can make players better. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't need coaches in the NBA.



It was the right deal when you get commensurate value. If you think that Shaq was worth the players the Heat gave up, more power to you.

The Lakers -- cap-strapped until 2008. At that time, Kobe will be 30. Phil will likely be gone. Barring a trade for KG, the Lakers are at least 2-3 years away. At least. That means the Lakers spend 5 years rebuilding around Kobe. Then the next question: what other star is going to feel comfortable coming to a team with a guy who ran off Shaq, Phil, and Karl Malone?

Future considerations indeed.



My friend, I've never done otherwise. I make the same plea to you. Shaq wanted to get paid. But he never ran off Phil. And he didn't ask for Kobe to be traded. Phil did that, but that's another story.



So you start from the inside, huh? Shaq was the most dominant post player at the time he was traded (incidentally, he averaged 26 and 11 while shooting 63% in the 2004 Finals, before he was traded. he wasn't the problem). So Kobe needs a post force, huh? He got rid of one of the best "post forces" the game has ever seen.

You keep screaming about keeping it real? Then let's keep it real. If you can't play with Shaq as a post force, you ain't gonna be able to play with ANYBODY in the post. And the Lakers' pulling that trigger and getting nothing back in return is going to cost them.



No one was going to give up a young superstar for an old one. And they didn't want to trade him within the Western Conference. That eliminated half the teams right there. But again, we're talking leverage and value. When you know a team is desperate, you're not going to help them much, You've got leverage, so you're not going to offer true value. And why were the Lakers desperate? Again, I'd much rather be patient to see what would develop rather than hold a fire sale.

It couldn't have been worse than the 34-win season they actually endured.




Can you get me Wade's phone number and autograph? Maybe get some invites to his next gig at South Beach. You must be tight with him to speak on it like that. Believing what you DON'T hear without any circumstantial evidence to back you up is worse than believing everything you hear.

But even if what you say is true, and I happen to believe it's wrong, Wade is a professional. He will make the marriage co-exist as long as it serves the best interests of the team. In 2 years, they've gotten to the WCF and the Finals. The Heat got exactly what they wanted.



Kobe had a geeat individual season. AI had great seasons running the show. MJ had great seasons as a one-man gang. So did T-Mac. And they all went nowhere without help.

In any event, you brought Barry Sanders into it, didn't you? And I gave you a hypothetical that mirrors what Kobe did.




His teammates have always said he had his moments, but at the end of the day, Shaq was the captain of the team. And what they were doing worked -- they were in the Western Conference Finals in two years, thereafter, they were in 4 Finals and won 3 titles in 5 years. What the Lakers did under Shaq worked. And for all of his faults -- his wrecking of the four-peat, his conditioning, his pettiness in the feud -- he got results for the team. That's all I cared about.

As far as Kobe's petulance and pouting, Phil Jackson WROTE THE BOOK ON IT, PLAYER. AND HE WAS THERE. Do you not believe him? Is he lying? I believe these things about Kobe because I believe Phil. If Phil called bullshit on Shaq, then I'd be right there with you. But by ignoring what he said, it sounds like you're calling bullshit on Phil.




Here's the issue. Shaq hasn't been on his own. Shaq knew he had a nucleus with the Lakers when he signed in 1996. He knew he had Wade when he was traded. But as the focal point of the teams he's been on, he's gotten results. And he got results for the Lakers.



Okay. Odom and Kobe missed 20 more games. But you keep asking me to keep it real. Then let's keep it real.

The Lakers wouldn't have made the playoffs anyway. They weren't killin' it with Odom or Kobe in the lineup. The Lakers lost 20 more games without Shaq. The Heat won 20 more games with him. And if Jeannie hadn't convinced Phil otherwise -- he admitted he'd be coaching the Knicks but for her -- they'd have been out of the playoffs again.

Why can't you admit the Lakers are currently worse off without Shaq? That may change, but the facts don't lie.



You find a way to make -- and avoid -- the point. My point was Shaq gets you in the hunt. It's already established that if you're a superstar, Shaq gets you in the hunt for the title every year. But you seem to turn that into "Shaq does it by himself." That wasn't the issue.



Because the kid isn't listening. That's why. That's the damn point, SC. And it sounds like you don't really believe in the Zen Master. That's funny: MJ did. Shaq did. His resume doesn't lie.




If it wasn't a challenge of some sort, why did you say it was "f---ed up"? You brought it up. It must have been provocative, huh?

And I don't have to defend a guy that won 9 world titles. His credentials speak for themselves. It might not have been the best move, but if you think coaches are all sunshine and butterflies, then that's on you.

In any event, he got through to the greatest ever. He got through to Shaq. He was able to coach Dennis-damn-Rodman. Kobe? He wouldn't listen until he got that ass spanked wandering out there on his own. That tells you more about Kobe than it does Phil.



Okay, I'll grant you that. But I haven't heard you say a damn thing about Kobe's role in the breakup itself. If you expound on that, then we're getting somewhere.

And to be clear. I said it's mostly Kobe's fault. I don't believe that the blame can be spread out equally. The circumstances have Kobe written all over them. Kobe wanted Shaq and Phil gone. Neither of them wanted to leave otherwise. Then Buss decided they were gone. As a result, the franchise left themselves with no help and no money to get it anytime soon..

So, Kobe either engineered these moves or induced others to do so. And cut it any way you want, they disrupted the franchise. Were Shaq in shape, it wouldn't have mattered. Were Shaq happy with his contract, it wouldn't have mattered. Had they won another title, it MIGHT have mattered. But Shaq and Phil were gone because of Kobe moreso than anything they themselves did or said.




Ease back, SC. You're cool and all but neither one of us has standing to question each other's fan credentials.

You've provided a little information and a lot of opinion. But how's this for info? The Lakers missed the playoffs last year, made the playoffs and choked this year, and have no money to build for the future.

I blame Kobe more than anyone else and I've grown to dislike him for it. You'd rather blame everyone equally, which enables you to avoid addressing directly Kobe's role in the breakup (other than "ego" and "diming out Shaq"). That's where we part ways on this issue.

Want to know why this matters to me? Not because of Shaq. Not because of Kobe. But because of the Lakers. It took them 12 long years to get back to the top, and in the middle of a potential dynasty, they blew it up. And even if Shaq was a problem, the Lakers are still left with a problem.

(by the way, we should both be eternally grateful to Jeannie Buss. she brought Phil back. but I'm sure you appreciate what the ZM brings to the table, right?)

The team I love the most is now under the control of a player whose me-first attitude is going to make it hard for the team to grow and develop. I support the team. And I know Kobe's gonna break our hearts. I feel for you if you don't see it coming.

I was a Laker fan before him, and I'll be one when he's gone.
[Edited 6/13/06 8:47am]

And for the record, my favorite player in the league for years running has been Dirk Nowitzki.

I'll answer the questions that don't focus on Kobe:



You need coaches to teach and strategize. If the player himself doesn't accept the teaching or the strategy, it goes for nothing. Again, it falls back on the player himself to accept the teaching and strategy.



When did I say anything about the value of the players they received? I didn't. All I did was ask you what could they have gotten for Shaq and you STILL haven't answered it. Why not?



HE got results with help. Don't fake the funk. Name a player that won a title without a star sidekick? You can't. The closest you can come is Hakeem in 94 and maybe Rick Barry in 75. Other than that, it takes 2 or more stars.



Keep it real: The Lakers were in the 6th spot before Kobe & Odom went down.



Keep it real: When was this ever the topic or when was this ever asked of me? It wasn't. Now, show me where I said the Lakers are/aren't better/worse off minus Shaq? Never did. My whole reason for posting was to clear up the Blame Game that is STILL going on in Lakerdom over Shaq/Kobe.



And my point is, Shaq can't it do it alone. Shaq is the main ingredient but he isn't the ONLY ingredient.



If you think THAT'S a challenge then I doubt you played organized ball of any kind. It was a swipe at a player, nothing more, nothing less.



Well, I could be wrong about you, but I've been a Laker fan since 79 and I've seen 3 eras of the Lakers from Magic/Kareem to Van Exel/Eddie to Shaq/Kobe and now to Kobe/Odom, so I'm pretty sure I'm qualified to point out how I see certain fans, and that's the vibe you're giving off.



I surely hope that is the case, bro. But why keep hashing the issue up? Don't you think it's time to move on past the Kobe/Shaq feud? The only people that bring it up are the Shaqites and Kobeites...not the Lakerites.

namepeace said:

Blasphemy. LOL!

Naw, but why Dirk? Until this season he was pretty much 1-dimensional and I DESPISE 1-dimensional players. The last favorite player I had was Magic...then I grew up and just realized that most of these dudes are soundbites and don't really care about the fans, so I don't really go the "player fan" route but I do respect certain players for their game. Now, having said that, that player would be KG: The most talented big man in the history of the NBA. Then it would be Hakeem: The most skilled Center of all time.

StoneCrib said:

Jordan would SCHOOL them ALL!

Graycap23 said:

Well, apples and oranges, bro. MJ's a SG/SF while KG and Dirk are PFs (KG can play SF as well though) and Dream is a C.

Tuesday, Jun 13, 2006

Dallas 60-22 (Road: 26-15) 9:00pm ET
At
Miami 52-30 (Home: 31-10) ABC

Mavericks lead series 2-0

StoneCrib said:

I agree with your big man picks.....but Jordan is still the BEST regardless of size.

I did have a question though. Scottie Pippen has always been underrated in my opinion. What do u think of him?

StoneCrib said:

And if they accept the teaching and the strategy, then that. . . makes . . . them . . . b-e-t-t-e-r.



They could have had Bibby, Peja and/or C-Webb for one. But they didn't want to trade in the conference.



Faking the funk is quoting me out of context. I've been saying nothing other than Shaq was the most important player on the team, and with proven results. You want to make it out like I'm saying Kobe, D-Fish, Fox, Horry, Devean, Harp, et al. did nothing. But Shaq was the cog, the hub.



Keep it real, indeed. Their standing changed from week to week BEFORE they went out. If you're gonna quote facts, keep'em in context.

Bottom line: they didn't make the playoffs. Riddle me this. Would they have made them with Shaq or not?




Okay. You're right. So I'll ask you a second time. As it stands now, are the Lakers better off with Shaq or without Shaq?

And keep it real, to quote you a thousand times over.




You didn't need to make that point. I've been saying that all along.



You are wrong. And I gave you the benefit of the doubt on your fandom, and thus never went there with you. I actually told a few of my boys about this convo -- certified Laker Haters all -- and I had to pick them up off the floor. You slayed'em!

good work!

In any event, not all Kobe critics are Laker haters.



There you go again. First you know Wade. Now you know namepeace. Fair enough. But again, it's amusing from you, my man. You can't admit that coaches and players can make other players better. But you doubt I've played sports. Okay.

Distinguishing between a "challenge," and "swipe" in this context is like distinguishing between "better" and "easier." It's semantic distinction without a functional difference.

A challenge doesn't need to be a constructive one. Nor does it need to be clean or classy. Phil used that comment to challenge Kobe's ability to play within a team. Was it his best challenge? Nope. Was it insulting to Kobe? Certainly. But it was designed to get a reaction from Kobe to achieve a desired result. It was, to quote from the literal definition, "a demand for justification," however snippy. That's a challenge. Anyone who's been on a practice field with a good coach or a bad one knows that there are good challenges and there are bad challenges. Phil's was the latter, we agree on that.



As I sit here staring at my Magic Johnson wallpaper, I can't help laughing. Since you don't know how big a fan you're dealing with, I'll tell you an anecdote to illustrate.

I've got a framed letter from the office of Jerry West on my wall. The letter was sent in May of 1996 in response to a letter I sent him 2 weeks earlier, asking him NOT to acquire Shaquille O'Neal. I believed that getting Antonio Davis (that's right, Antonio freaking Davis) and keeping the guys we had around would be sufficient to compete for the title.

Why? Because I felt it was in the best interests of the team not to acquire Shaq. And I was proven dead wrong. But my feelings were out of love for my team, which I felt was bigger than ANY one player. And I feel that way today.
Which is why the Kobe thing kills me.

If you want to see it, I'll email it to you. It's funny.

So, I was anti-Shaq and pro-Laker before Kobe Bryant dumped his prom date for Brandy his senior year at Lower Merion.

That's fandom for you, player. Maybe I'll be wrong again. But it will never be for the wrong reasons (Shaq love, Kobe hate, etc.)



Wrong again, SC. I weighed in on the issue raised by whodknee, you responded, and we engaged in a debate over it. True blue Laker fans take different sides of this issue. As demonstrated here.

But why is this important?

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

If the team doesn't learn from this experience, it will go back into the wilderness again.

The only reason I give a good got-damn about ANY of this is because it affects the team, its chemistry, its balanced philosophy to winning, and its prospects for competing.

Kobe is the team's biggest asset. And its biggest problem.

That should bother "Lakerites." If you don't know or acknowledge the shortcomings of the team's franchise player, or how we got to this place, you're setting yourself up for heartbreak.

But here's a "challenge" for you.

Meet me at the 2008 Finals sticky, and one of us will have crow waiting on the other.


[Edited 6/13/06 11:53am]

StoneCrib said:

For no other reason than he was and is fun to watch. He shot well, he has a face-up game, he's a 7-footer and he could run the floor like a guard. I actually wanted him to be the next big Laker superstar. True, he wasn't a post-up guy, a defender or a leader until this season, but he's right there now.

You don't have to invest in a player to enjoy his game. My emotional investments lie in my teams, not in any of the players.

And Hakeem "the most skilled" big man of all time? I'd say Kareem belongs in that argument.

Don't bring up KG right now. I don't want to get my hopes up.

namepeace said:

That's very funny indeed. Jerry used actually answer mail and sign the letters on Laker letter head. Very cool. That's one of the MANY reason I have always liked the guy.

On a different note, to show how my luck goes as a Bulls fan, the bulls flipped a coin with the Lakers for the number one pick. The Lakers got Magic, we got David Greenwood. Ain't that sweet?

Graycap23 said:

Pippen is the greatest SF of all time, better than Bird because Pippen redefined the SF spot and played great D. Pippen could lock you down on D and score on your ass.

StoneCrib said:

Music 2 my ears.....