sosgemini said:

no, it was a statement I was making about 2 gay men I know fighting about what gay pride is and isn't. it's sad to watch.

pride is about love of who you are.

sosgemini said:

granted, you made a very valid point about the parades being a bad example, and i agree with you on that. unfortunately, there are people who i feel make a really lowbrow spectacle out of it, which is why i didn't comment on those posts., because it is a valid point, however much it strays from the original point of the thread.

but then you just kept hitting it and kept hitting it and then suddenly it was about the gay community is racist, the gay community is anti-lesbian, the gay community only goes to these things to get laid, throwing out stereotypes and broad generalizations to say how awful stereotyping is.

and really, kee, "thick skull"? youre better than that.

pride has always been a weird thing for me. in a lot of ways, i've always been in the same ideological boat as SOS - i've always been very cynical about the pride parade, and i've always felt that it benefits the most mainstreamed common denominators of the community and paints a picture of us with a very thick brush.

i've also felt that this is a great time for advertisers, and that if i see another bud light logo during pride weekend, i'd go fucking koo-koo.

when i started working at the LGBT center in NYC, i started to understand the importance of pride parades - i would work in the center during the parades in new york and see people afterwards who had just come out and had taken their parents to the parade. i'd seen couples who had just been to their first event where their relationship was really and truly honored and respected. stuff like that.

still and all, i might have eased up on pride, but i still felt like it wasn't something for ME. i still felt on the outside of it. i didn't need any parades to reinforce my identity.

when i moved to chicago, my opinion changed. the pride parades here really impress me and leave me feeling all warm and fuzzy. radical political groups march. POC groups march. senior groups march. and they're all given the same respect as the ubiquitous damn circuit boy and drag queen floats. i'd dare say that the chicago pride parade is refreshing, a little bit hopeful, maybe even the way i wish all parades could be. but i dunno, maybe there's better in some other city.

i'm always going to be a little bit blase about pride - even if it were perfectly representational all over the world, it's just not...i dunno..."ME"...but, sheesh, what can i do - my boyfriend loves all that shit, and it's one of the extremely RARE times when the chicago gay community appears diverse and close-knit and deceptively functional.

and what the hell - with me there, there's one less person in attendance who's in lockstep with the whole mainstreaming of gay culture. so maybe i'm doing something good for other people just by hauling my freak ass out there.

TwinkleBitch said:

TwinkleBitch said:

actually, i think it's great to watch. it shows me that we're at a point where we can recognize and debate some of the finer points of where this culture is right now, instead of just saying "hey, at least we're allowed to have a parade".

Anxiety said:

i agree with everything you said, except "so maybe i'm doing something good for other people just by hauling my freak ass out there"

i think if you want to affect change for the positive, which is what kee is also saying in a different way, retreating does nto work. go out there and start marching for the everyday gay/lesbian/bi/trans people who get ignoreed by the media.

just my opinion.

Satan said:

well, that's kind of what i mean.

i don't feel a need to march IN the parade, because i don't belong to any organizations and i don't consider demonstrating/marching to be a particularly comfortable way for *ME* to express myself (though lord knows i did enough of it throughout college).

but by being present, by lending to the positive energy that i feel at the chicago pride parades, by being out there and showing that i'm who i am - that by my very nature, i tend to reject most of what i'm "supposed" to be based on the typical mainstream homo demographic - and that i belong at the damn parade as much as anyone else.

but, again, i've never really felt beat over the head with homogeneity at chicago pride parades in recent years past.

Satan said:

boy, you and your fifty million screen names...

thick skull was probably too harsh...and i didnt intend to make this thread a debate...but people kept posting responces and asking me questions...i have to respond to them.....

and when i talk about my issues with the community i am not making an issue out of them..i am simply explaining why *I* do not feel like i should be celebrating this community...because this community doesnt really approach me with open arms...


the people i embrass are the people i get to know on a personal level...most of you within this thread would fall in that category....but, you all arent the people hanging out in the SF community...

i think Anxiety makes a very important point, each community is different....and thats why i say i am only speaking about the SF Pride Event....

the bay area community (for all its progressiveness) is actually *the* most self-segregated communities in this country....you have your black gay bars...your latin gay bars...your one asian bar.....and you have your lesbian bars..its not inclussive.....so when you have a tig-ole event like Pride...and try to say the community is one tig-ole happy family, well....i dont feel that way....

for me...pride is being open with my friends and family...sharing my perspective with them..being a successful individual and open within my line of business..because when people see that they realize that not all gay people are pedophiles or freaks....

at anyrate:

*thats* how i celebrate pride...every single day...EVERYDAY OF MY LIFE- Dajae.....

this isnt taking anything away from you or anyone else who enjoys the event...so go, have a good time....im grateful for that moment with that woman and her kids...cause she taught me there are other ways of conveying pride....

no hating on this end...only love.

when i lived in nyc, i felt like SOS felt - it felt very much to me like an event where newly out people could go and look on in admiration at the buff white men that they might one day somehow kind of emulate, maybe-probably-not. and the dykes had a dyke march which was separate, where they could be radical and dykey and wear birkenstocks and take their boobs out as a political statement. oh, and no boys allowed. i felt very much on the outside of all this, because i didn't fit the stereotypes that were being celebrated at these pride events, and all the people i knew who were "like me" all felt the same way. where was the funky bohemian intellectual artist gay pride parade? it felt like we weren't invited. it felt like we complicated the picture that the pride parade was trying to paint (which, apparently, was paint by numbers).

chicago doesn't feel so much like new york did. i feel like i can lighten up. i feel like i don't have to represent my difference so much, and that just by enjoying it as the spectacle it is, i'm part of the day. it's very welcoming, even though i don't think i'll ever feel like a pride parade will ever really represent me or what i value about being queer, which has more to do with individuality and courage than it does about championing iconography that is supposed to define the entire community and lend us as "group identity". that kinda rubs me the wrong way, but whatever. i'm over it. drag queens? naked muscle guys? sure, bring 'em on. great.

Just as much as there is rascisim in the gay community... ther is alot of hatred towards lots of people in the community.

people who bitch about the circuit, drag and Leather part of the community.

Dykes that hate fags

Fags that hate dykes

gay men and lesbians that hate Bis

everyone looking down on the trans.

people who want us just to fit in and brush aside who we are and what took us to this point.

it wasn't the "mainstream" that got us here.

It was the drag queens and trannys that revolted at Stonewall

It was the Leather community and the Drag community that stood up for AIDS when it was known as GRID... Why? because they were the hardest hit.

It was the Dykes on Bikes and the drag queen and Leather showing their faces at the first pride

It was the Sisters and the Imperial Court rasing money in the early days of the AIDS crisis.

It's the Imerial Court and the Sisters out there today raising money still.

It's the Leather community going out to prevent drug use and the spread of HIV today.

It's theses people that many seem to be embaressed of who are out in the streets doing the grunt work... making us known and doing the do.

Don't rip on the people who got you where you are.

I am PROUD of my brothers and sisters out there who went before and put their necks on the line so i can stand here today and go to the fucking Parade and shake my ass and not care.

We let the Connies win when we sit here and pick apart each other. I can't believe that anyone in this community feels the need to knock anyone else.

Do what you think is best but don't fucking knock the people that do the work.

ehuffnsd said:

your missing the whole point of my statement.....i am not knocking people down....

let me share something with you..when AIDS first started it was the lesbian community that actually came out and assisted the dying men....the lesbian community were the most vocal here in san francisco..

and what happened the minute aids care got better? the gay community once again turned on the lesbian community and its just as segregated as it ever was...

this is a personal situation that i have experienced...am i knocking down the lesbian community for pointing this out? no...it just further proves my point that i dont feel this communal sense of pride.....if i dont feel it i would be a hipocrate to attend this event...

and ya know what? great.....great that all these people are present...great for the leather men..great for whatever not..still doesnt mean you have to show up with your dick hanging out, now does it? still doesnt mean the lesbo's have to walk around with their shirts off..expecially when more and more kids and family members are attending these events because STARBUCKS is sponsering it..

you cant have em both ways ehuffnsd....i am not speaking against these groups and what they did...so stop saying that i am....that gutterballs the discussion...

just understand that what the pride events were and what they have become are totally different now.....and somethings gonna have to change about them...

can I ask a question? Why are the gay and lesbian communities so segregated?

sosgemini said:

we don't have to change who we are to have equal rights.

it's not our fault American culture is repressed.

and Dykes hate fags as much as fags hate Dykes.

and other than the fact that we love the same gender we don't have much in common. Don't blame it all on the fags.

Natsume said:

disagreeance on the correct amount of salt to put on popcorn.



i dunno, i'm not saying people that see a split are wrong, but in the communities i have lived in, i have not seen such a divide. most of the gay bars i have been to have been gay and lesbian bars, and in my church it's about an even 50-50 haul, and we always do everything with mixed gender as a church and as people from the church socializing outside of the church.

and it was the same in austin and san antonio.

so i dunno, maybe it's only in the bigger cities
[Edited 6/13/05 22:25pm]

sosgemini said:

I'm sorry sos that's a poor reason. People bring their children KNOWING that they will see this. Hell people bring their children to Folsom street. A LEATHER AND FETISH event. If they do not want their children to be exposed to it don't bring them. It's not my responsiblity to look out for them.

ehuffnsd said:

and so i say, if this a political event...that wants to push an agenda, then "make it so' Captain Picard...

but here in SF...its not. IMHO....so i dont attend....can you accept my experiences? my perception of the event and agree to disagree?

sosgemini said:

i feel fine that you don't like to go... but i get a sense that you are anti-people that don't look "normal" and that bothers me.

ehuffnsd said:

sucka punch..do i look normal?

im the black guy..with the fro...

ehuffnsd said:

wow..i respectfully disagree...Folsom St Fair is NOT an SF Pride event..

sosgemini said:

normal yeah... i don't think you'd much of a reaction walking down the street.


more normal than this

sosgemini said:

It's Leather Pride event... and people do bring their children to this event... most hardcore Leather people don't go to Folsom and opt for Dore Alley because of the abundance of children and looky loos that attend Folsom now a days

sosgemini said:

why would you consider that abnormal?

Satan said:

well, here on good ole Castro it isnt...cause ya know im not wearing kakis and a white gap t-shirt and have a crew cut..

believe it or not when i go out there..i get soo many drunk fools approaching me wanting to touch my hair like im some fucking freakshow....

fo -real...

on idiot spilled his drink on me (some white fool) who said he would do me cause he always wanted to fuck someone with a jerry curl....

my curls aint wet....stupid ass mutha fucka!! and thats the stupid shit i have to deal with here...

fo-real..

sosgemini said:

well, that fucking sucks. but, again, sins of a few morons...
[Edited 6/13/05 23:04pm]

sosgemini said:

at least we are starting to get to the root of the issue.

but i still think you are making rather broad generalizations. and are chosing to stay in the problem.

ehuffnsd said:

nope, in SF...this is normal..wouldnt even bat an eye here....

and for the record i dated a marolyn (sic?) manson fan...didnt mind when he dressed up..actually found it sexy....so lets drop questioning what i think is normal or not...

mmm-kay?
[Edited 6/13/05 23:12pm]

sosgemini said:

when you stop questioning what others do.

it's a two way street.
[Edited 6/13/05 23:13pm]

superspaceboy said:

I agree with a lot of things everyone is saying. By us showing differences in our way of thinking and opinions about Pride we show our diversity.

I have always been an up in your face kind of guy so I agree on the nudity and stuff like that. Sex in front of children, NO! I love Dykes on Bikes. I think people are more intelligent than we give them credit for. They cannot show any gay pride video with naked people in it and say "See, look at this." Because all I have to do is show them some videos of MARDI GRAS or SPRING BREAK, GIRLS GONE WILD, GUYS GONE WILD. They can't go there.

I also agree with all of the racism that goes on in our community. That will always be there. Even as a Mexican there's racism.....inside my own community. It's either because you were born here and not in Mexico, or your darker(having more Mexican Indian skin) or lighter(Spanish skin). I can't stand racism. It frustrates me. My own family has certain ideas about people and it just drives me mental.

I agree on why some people are put off by it. I don't go to a lot of pride parades because I'm just bored of them.

M

MIGUELGOMEZ said:

very good points, and said in a respectful manner which has been sorely lacking in this thread.

and i for one, think those guys who have turned you down because you are of mexican heritage are clearly insane, you're yummy as hell.

Satan said:

The funny thing is that I was being turned down by a Mexican for being from Mexico. Because, of course, anyone who comes from Mexico is a "wetback". It didn't matter to that person that my mom was born in Texas.

You are soooo sweet. My head is getting bigger, if you can believe that.

The thing is that most of the time I understand other people's point of view, even if it isn't the same as mine. We have to understand that we all don't have the same experiences. Growing up was weird for me because I grew up in a predominately latino area. My elementary school was 90% Latino. The thing is, my best friend was white. Boy did I get shit for that. I refused to not hang out with him so little by little I got some respect. It was sooo bad that to this day when people say "white boy" this or "white boy" that. I cringe. The phrase "white boy" is almost like using the word spic or the n word.

To this day I just cannot understand racism. I mean it really upsets me. Another thing is that when I meet people either of my race or other, we'll hit it off and then all of a sudden they're saying stupid shit about another race after denying being racist. THAT REALLY PISSES ME OFF. It's like it's okay to make fun of this other race just as long as they're not making fun of mine. I take it personally when people talk mess about other races. I'm lucky that in my lifetime a lot of the stupid stereotypes that I have been fed regarding certain people have been dispelled. It only takes one person that doesn't fit the stereotype to break it. I'm so greatful for that.

I'm sorry to rant but today has been weird. There have been some other threads that have really pissed me off.


M