I think this has sometimes been a problem with legendary stars, like the Isleys, EWF, George Clinton, Stevie, etc...It seems like they worry to much about trying to be hip and current, not realizing that it's the way their older stuff sounded that made the young crowd like them in the first place...True, a lot of younger artists HAD to resort to sampling or remaking songs from from "Old-school" albums , but it's also because people liked that warm, classic [ read:analog] sound. But a lot of the Older stars don't seem to realize that...for example, Stevie's " Conversation Peace" was done with all the latest technology at the time, but Nobody's ever going to try to re-do anything off "Conversation Peace", because it sounds flat and uninspired, nothing like his classic 70's albums... I've heard some P-funk members talking about putting out a record with "The Modern Sound" and getting their granddaughters, neices or nephews to rap on their albums as if this is the key to gettin their records over....I would like to sit Stevie down , listen to Innervisions and then Conversation Peace, then ask him , "Did you really prefer this ' Current sound'?" "Does Digital programming sound much better to you?" "Did you get rid of analog instruments because they weren't 'The Latest Thing?'"
(BTW, I heard good things about his upcoming album, so I got my fingers crossed...)

What's worse is when they they think they have to change their image to sell records instead of concentrating on making a good record. I love Ron Isley and the Isley Brothers , but this "MR BIG" shit that he and R Kelly concocted is gettin'on my nerves!! He's one our best vocalists and the fact that they have to dress him up like the Godfather of Gangstas to get him on the charts, BET and in magazines...I mean, You don't see Bruce Springsteen or Eric Clapton having to show up in a f**kin' cape to get respect...I mean, they even print" Mr Big" on the CD cover: Hey Kids remember, MR BIG, the Gangsta.. It's Him!! Buy our CD!!...Is anybody really gonna hold up "Body Kiss" 20 years from now and say, "Yeah, now that's a classic, unforgettable album!"??

That's why I really appreciated Al Green's last album, he got together with Willie Mitchell and went for his sound, the sound that made him special in the first place...

I just think that if these artists worried less about trends and concentrated more on their sound and their songwriting that made them legends in the first place, they would see their longevity...

Obviously Record companies are also to blame for the pressure they exert, but making these artists do things out of their element to try to appear "Young and Hip" won't sell more records, and ends up alienating their true fans, young and old...
[This message was edited Fri May 7 9:32:51 2004 by paligap]

I totally agree with you on all those points, especially the Ron Isley, "Mr Big" part. It annoys me that him and the Isley Brothers are resorting to this because that seems like such a front to me. Maybe it's what they had to do in the beginning but it's gone on for far too long. It's sad but with news of the new Stevie Wonder album coming out soon, I really want to see what he has up his sleeve with this release.

purplecam said:

Again, keepin my fingers crossed

Remember diana ross' attempt at Newjack in the late 80's! I love "Workin' overtime", that song rules! Love the sound, very derivitive of then popular janet Jackosn and Paula abdul but I liked it and still do! (and I don't really like her other stuff!)

Stevie did well on updating his sound on the "jungle fever" soundtrack back in the early 90's! That albums cool!

I like the fact that artists and groups dare to do this, it shows growth but also arrogence I guess as they think they can still compete with the new generations! they also virtually always bomb and lose their fanbase so it is very risky!

Virtually every established artist or group tried to update themselves in the newJack swing era (late 80's-early 90's)! The ones below and more I can't think of at the moment, worked:-

Lamont dozier tried newjack with "Inside seduction (or heavy base drums),
Eric clapton "August", (this was not newjack but just mid 80's pop really)
Tiffeny "New inside" (she is legendary right?-well I don't really like any of her other stuff)
Gladys knight "Good woman"

I like anything Newjack swing so 4 me it can be done! (i.e- make a good 'current' sounding record from an 'old' or 'different' artist

Soon to be released: Lena Horne - "I'm Sorry, Ms. Jackson" (Rockwilder Remix)

thesexofit said:

Yeah, I don't mean to make it sound like the artists aren't allowed to do new things;...but some of these legends aren't doing it cause they like it, they're doing it cause they think it'll sell more records...Can it be done successfully? Yes, If it's done with conviction; and I'm all for collaborations with new artists if they really like what the new artists are doing...I just hate it when people say "we need to update our sound... let's hook up with Pharrell Williams or whoever the latest producer is" without understanding the new music. I mean don't just do it to be current! Even Prince went through that for a couple of years (Tony M, anyone?)

And I like Sampling , broken beats, downtempo,etc.: I do think the new generations are better at this--sometimes, as you said, it's Ego-- the older artists think--"Hey, we can do that! let's put some hip hop on our next album!That'll show'em"--the young kids know they're frontin' and the older folks go "what the hell is this?"

In Stevie's case, it's like he was searching for some kind of digital perfection, but I think his songs really began to suffer for it ...the songwriting is still there, but Ironically, the more technical it sounds, the more dated it becomes...all those Dx7 sounds and beats from the eighties and early nineties sound really flat and corny now...
[This message was edited Fri May 7 15:48:22 2004 by paligap]

Paligap,this is such a good thread

I totally agree with everything you said.It's really embarassing to see the once-mighty Isley Bros. sellout,with that stupid "Mr.Biggs" nonsense.And several years ago,I heard that Aretha Frankin was interested in having Puff Daddy (!!) produce a few songs for her.It's a shame when legendary artists feel that they must remain hip by working with all the hot producers,in a misguided attempt to "update" their sound.Sometimes,the results can be inspired (remember Aretha's song "A Rose Is Still A Rose" produced by Lauryn Hill?) but as in the case of the Isleys,it can be downright hilarious.

And lets not 4get Madonna in this thread - one of the guiltiest

kremlinshadow said:

so,I guess you do consider Madonna a "legendary artist"

In your own way,you just gave her a compliment,lol.And speaking of artists who try hard to stay "current",we gotta add your skin-bleached idol to that list.His strategy for making music is to simply pick up an issue of Billboard and call up every hot R&B producer on the charts.He did this with 'Invincible' and I'm sure he'll do it next time around...that's if he gets to make another album,lol.
[This message was edited Mon May 10 3:30:52 2004 by DavidEye]

DavidEye said:

I wouldnt deny Madonna her 'legendary Artist' status - I have issues about her career LAP onwards if anything - and your wrinkley skinned idol doesnt try to pick the obscure to appear 'hip' and 'trendy' ? Even her long standing fans are yawning ....
Funny you should say that about Invincible - as Rodney Jerkins contacted MJ & the other producers he had used before (excluding floetry) so your statement is kinda WRONG

Madonna: Original?

kremlinshadow said:

For 'Invincible',MJ worked with everyone from Missy Elliot,P.Diddy,The Neptunes,Lauryn Hill,Wyclef Jean and everyone else who is "hot" in the R&B world.That's why the CD cost over $30 million to make! It was a desperate attempt to appeal to an audience that doesn't even care anymore.

And you can criticize Madonna all you want,but I think we can both agree that her career is in a healthier state than MJ's she doesn't seem to have the same "problems" that he has.

Is kremlinshadow still ragging on Madonna? Is there anyone else you don't like? We've heard all the Madonna complaints before.

On a side note, why is this thread now an MJ-vs.-Madonna thread? They are hardly the worst offenders. What about Cher?
[This message was edited Mon May 10 4:50:06 2004 by VoicesCarry]

VoicesCarry said:

Kremlinshadow is funny.He spends all his time talking shit about Madonna,but yet he praises MJ to the high heavens...lol...that's hilarious.

DavidEye said:

Well, we praise the artists we like, I guess. We're not any different.

I find it odd, though, that many MJ fans don't seem to like any music except, well, MJ's (kremlinshadow excluded since I know he has diverse tastes from his posts on other threads).
[This message was edited Mon May 10 5:01:58 2004 by VoicesCarry]

VoicesCarry said:

- I'll give u that - Cher has to be once of the worst!!
Also I didn't mention MJ - Davideye brought that in!! I think beyond MJ in my critisism.
[This message was edited Mon May 10 6:13:53 2004 by kremlinshadow]

DavidEye said:

It's not so much that I hate Madonna, it's more that Im annoyed with the way she is going musically, more for trend sakes & the problem with that is she's making music for the 'now' to try and stay 'current' & the music she makes is no longer timeless & dates very quickly. I know artists cant stay in a time warp and need to experiment - but I think she needs to get back to what she was good at now, she's done her experimental phase and people are getting bored of it - hardcore fans will stick by her whatever. I followed her since say 'borderline' & the last show I saw was 'Drowned World' which left a nasty taste in my mouth have to say .... and the new album smacked of pure desparation to stay 'current' to me - 'music' was bad enough.

So I dont talk shit on Madonna for the sake of it - alot of the time it's the shit that you talk that I like to react to just for the fun of it

DavidEye said:

You're right, Sometimes the results can be inspired, and the Aretha/Lauryn Hill is a good example (and I'm intrigued by the idea of D'angelo and Raphael Saadiq working with EWF)... and really, some of the Isleys collaborations do work ( it worked better on "Eternal" than on "Body Kiss" ). But a lot of times what makes them the Isleys gets lost in the production. Ernie Isley is still one of the most powerful guitarists around, but they barely let him in the studio anymore (except for the Photo Shoots). I mean, past a certain point, you wonder why he's even there, why even bother to put him on the cover with his guitar, if you're not going to let him play? What's he there for, moral support? So now , it's not even the Isley brothers, it's just "R. Kelly featuring Ronald Isley"...
[This message was edited Wed May 12 17:06:45 2004 by paligap]