cos i swear, HALF of the motivation to get a band behind him as a name and on record again in the early 90s was motivated by groups like lo key, mint condition and fishbone, etc etc.
[This message was edited Sat May 8 12:06:43 2004 by funkbabyandthebabysitters]
[This message was edited Sat May 8 12:06:56 2004 by funkbabyandthebabysitters]

There's evidence of a respect for Fishbone in Prince's catalog -- "Billy Jack Bitch" contains a sample from a Fishbone song.

It's hard for me to see how much the bands you mention influenced Prince. I think they might share a lot of influences. And given his scale of popularity during the 1980s, it's a lot easier to see him influencing them (especially multitalented cats like MC's Stokely).

And, if you listen to Fishbone's "Give a Monkey a Brain," the grooves on that album are sooo fierce, I wouldn't be surprised if that group and Prince share a number of influences.

In other words, I'm woefully ignorant but couldn't resist the urge to post.

what i mean is that in terms of bands in R&b at the time, those were two of the few doing it as a self enclosed unit. thats all..... stuff like eye hate you wasnt all that dissimilar (althougth it was done in a princey style) to something by MC.

on one of the lovesexy rehearsal bootlegs, you hear PRince talking about Fishbone. He said he loved their new album but "didn't know what white folks were gonna think about it"

BlaqueKnight said:

no, please do post. im interested to know what you think. or are you just going to curse me out? lol

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Aight. Fuck it. I was getting too comfortable here anyway.
I think Prince is JEALOUS of bands like Mint Condition and Fishbone. YEP. JEALOUS.
He's got a kick ass band of fire musicians...but they are there for the paychecks. Fishbone and Mint are TRUE personifications of what musicians want bands to be about. Musical comradery (sp?). Those guys are FRIENDS like he and Andre used to be. Prince has fucked over so many in order to make himself look great and to push his own hype that it probably pisses him off that they have what he wants. Fishbone don't give a FUCK! They play and have fun and fight and have fun and play again, but there's not fear of getting fired for wearing the wrong color the wrong day or for having a different opinion. Same with Mint, whom I call the last great black band. Mint's music is as tight as anything Prince does and they keep it funky. They successfully meshed contemporary R&B with jazz and even rocked out and stil kept it . They have respect from all their peeps/peers (feel me?) and as Ice Cube says "didn't have to sell out". The didn't have to efeminate themselves for acceptance because they weren't looking for acceptance from anyone other than those willing to appreciate the music. They dance because they want to, not because they have to. The songwriting is deep and meaningful, not just about love but about the entire spectrum of life (example: "Missing" - beautiful sad UP TEMPO song about children), the band arrangements are off the hook, the musicianship is top quality, the singing is better (in my opinion) and other bands secretly aspire to sound like/be like them. Every good local black band I know of is hip to the Mint and has bitten a little from them somewhere. They are direction black music might have taken had rap not forced R&B into slow jam hell in order to sell. They are the band's band. Prince is not. Prince wanted the Time around so he could make himself look good because his ego made him think he could always one-up them. The Mint is the band that he DOESN'T want in town because they actually ARE a challenge. Stokley can sing circles around Prince and writes with just as much depth, yet Stokley doesn't try to make it all about him. Its a BAND thing. Prince's ego makes him want to have everything his way, so he can never truly have that. When he feels like someone else may be right and he's wrong, I bet he pulls rank. As good of an artist as he is, he's not like Mint because they work TOGETHER. (or at least they did). Too bad things didn't work out for them on the business end. Regardless, the Mint always brought it pure and didn't try to wrap themselves in a cloud of faux-mystery and their songs didn't take a superior position with their audience. No tricks, gags, gimmicks or condecending perspectives. Also, with Fishbone, they are TRULY free as a band. They never went pop, so they really do ANY kind of music they want. Instead of bickering like little biatches, most of their fans seem to appreciate whever they drop. I think its because Fishbone is a live experience. You GOT to go to the show to get the full deal. They don't put themselves over their audience. They stage dive and go into the crowd and play. There's a warmth that Prince doesn't have. Their show says: "come party with us...no fuck it, we're coming down there to party with YOUR ass!" Prince's show always says "Look at me. Oh, you can come onstage for a song, but its still MY show" A lot of people on this site seem to love that pseudo-eliteism shit, but I have no respect for it. It shows insecurity. During a Fishbone show, sometimes it feels like they may hand you an instrument and tell you to play while they guzzle a beer. At a Prince show - it always comes off as "rock/funk god is here; bow subjects. Listen up for your instructions, we'll play them for you." You know its never gonna TRULY get wild. Okay. The flaming will start and I'll leave for a while like I did before. That's how I see it. Its MY viewpoint.

"Aight. Fuck it. I was getting too comfortable here anyway.
I think Prince is JEALOUS of bands like Mint Condition and Fishbone. YEP. JEALOUS.
He's got a kick ass band of fire musicians...but they are there for the paychecks. Fishbone and Mint are TRUE personifications of what musicians want bands to be about. Musical comradery (sp?). Those guys are FRIENDS like he and Andre used to be. Prince has fucked over so many in order to make himself look great and to push his own hype that it probably pisses him off that they have what he wants. Fishbone don't give a FUCK! They play and have fun and fight and have fun and play again, but there's not fear of getting fired for wearing the wrong color the wrong day or for having a different opinion."

i really doubt prince cares about playing with friends anymore. he could probably get back with wendy, bobby z (who used to be his best friend), kirky j (god forbid but he was princes best friend and best man too), or dez or andre even if he just apologised. these people still have a lot of love for prince, despite his idiotic behaviour. but i dont think he much cares about being friends with his band, i mean, i doubt james brown was best buddies with his best band members, but they were still just that, his best band members. and even george clinton, pally as he was with the p-funk mob in the 70s, a lot of them still feel they didnt get credited on certain albums/songs or get paid enough.

" Same with Mint, whom I call the last great black band."

come on man, youre telling me tony toni tone dont count for anything?

"Mint's music is as tight as anything Prince does and they keep it funky. They successfully meshed contemporary R&B with jazz and even rocked out and stil kept it . They have respect from all their peeps/peers (feel me?) and as Ice Cube says "didn't have to sell out"."

prince didnt necessarily sell out, he did what he wanted to, he always played different styles from day one (i mean, you could say he sold out with dirty mind). and mint were mainly working with soul/R&B, that was their forte. different strokes for different folks. but they did try and sound like contemp R&B with the lifes aquarium album where they tried to do all the timbaland rhythms that were popular at the time.

"The didn't have to efeminate themselves for acceptance because they weren't looking for acceptance from anyone other than those willing to appreciate the music."

that was the 80s though.... and prince was kinda campy from day one, did you not see him performing on the dick clark show in 79?!

"They dance because they want to, not because they have to. The songwriting is deep and meaningful, not just about love but about the entire spectrum of life (example: "Missing" - beautiful sad UP TEMPO song about children), the band arrangements are off the hook, the musicianship is top quality, the singing is better (in my opinion) and other bands secretly aspire to sound like/be like them."

i know what youre saying, its more soulful, richer sounding, thicker etc etc, but mint also sounded really glossy and shiny, they werent really 'raw' as such. maybe live they were, but they had way too many synths all over their songs. i love mint condition, but i wish they didnt sound so polished. if youre a band in the 90s, why on earth do you need that many synths? its not the era of the time anymore!

"Every good local black band I know of is hip to the Mint and has bitten a little from them somewhere. They are direction black music might have taken had rap not forced R&B into slow jam hell in order to sell."

please, thats wishful thinking. when mint were about, there were hardly ANY black bands about, thats what made them special. nothings changed since then. neo soul has opened up the market for live music but theres only a few bands out there making records, and most of them dont SOUND like bands. (but the neo soul artists at least have bands when they do shows).

"They are the band's band. Prince is not. Prince wanted the Time around so he could make himself look good because his ego made him think he could always one-up them. The Mint is the band that he DOESN'T want in town because they actually ARE a challenge. Stokley can sing circles around Prince and writes with just as much depth, yet Stokley doesn't try to make it all about him. Its a BAND thing. Prince's ego makes him want to have everything his way, so he can never truly have that. When he feels like someone else may be right and he's wrong, I bet he pulls rank."

well you just gotta look at how his current band sounds. all grit-less and not very funky really, hes aiming for this sterile sound now (im talking about ONA, i havent heard the new tour versions). prince is the type of guy who picks people who arent going to challenge him, which is a shitty attitude for a musican of his caliber, but thats how he is. especially now, he doesnt seem to like 'standout' musicans either all that much, he prefers them to not 'shine' in their own right. he doesnt seem to know that better musicans could make him look good. he could do with some fresh thinking and ideas but he probably doesnt listen, unless its old-ass lary graham. hes kinda insecure in that respect.

"As good of an artist as he is, he's not like Mint because they work TOGETHER. (or at least they did). Too bad things didn't work out for them on the business end. Regardless, the Mint always brought it pure and didn't try to wrap themselves in a cloud of faux-mystery and their songs didn't take a superior position with their audience. No tricks, gags, gimmicks or condecending perspectives. Also, with Fishbone, they are TRULY free as a band. They never went pop, so they really do ANY kind of music they want. Instead of bickering like little biatches, most of their fans seem to appreciate whever they drop. I think its because Fishbone is a live experience. You GOT to go to the show to get the full deal. They don't put themselves over their audience. They stage dive and go into the crowd and play. There's a warmth that Prince doesn't have. Their show says: "come party with us...no fuck it, we're coming down there to party with YOUR ass!" Prince's show always says "Look at me. Oh, you can come onstage for a song, but its still MY show" A lot of people on this site seem to love that pseudo-eliteism shit, but I have no respect for it. It shows insecurity. During a Fishbone show, sometimes it feels like they may hand you an instrument and tell you to play while they guzzle a beer. At a Prince show - it always comes off as "rock/funk god is here; bow subjects. Listen up for your instructions, we'll play them for you." You know its never gonna TRULY get wild. Okay. The flaming will start and I'll leave for a while like I did before. That's how I see it. Its MY viewpoint."

whoa whoa whoa, i dont know about all that. you cant compare mint to prince really, cos they wre more of a straight soul/R&B band. and fishbone are more of a straight hard rocking band (prince never really 'rocks out' or goes wild on stage). but yeah, prince isnt much of a 'working together' type of guy which is why he never really has proper bands, theyre always more back up (but still great) bands to him. but he isnt what id call restrained. he does whatever music he wants, even if his new 'experiments' come out dire, as they seem to these days. but prince is just a differnet kinda guy, hes not gonna stage dive, he never really lets go, or goes crazy (like the song says). i think george clinton joked once that he even practises the 'spontaneous' parts of a show. prince is a pretty aloof person, he doesnt want interaction like that. i dont really mid to be honest. i preferred it when he didnt invite 3534 people up on stage to dance behind him (badly too, lol), cos i dont really believe he wants everyone up there with him. it also takes away a bit from his mystique. but he is incrediubly insecure, yeah, thats why he never really works with anyone really really great, doesnt like male musicans covering his songs, and generally works with sub par talent when he could be working with some great people.

First let's clear this up:
" Same with Mint, whom I call the last great black band."

come on man, youre telling me tony toni tone dont count for anything?


I thought the three T's preceeded Mint. If I'm wrong, sorry. I never said they were the ONLY great black band.

and this:
Every good local black band I know of is hip to the Mint and has bitten a little from them somewhere. They are direction black music might have taken had rap not forced R&B into slow jam hell in order to sell."

please, thats wishful thinking. when mint were about, there were hardly ANY black bands about, thats what made them special.

Perhaps you misread. I said every LOCAL band. LOCAL. The bands performing around town in my area, which I think I'm pretty aware of. This was just a symbol that there was an underground of people listening and WANTING to create that vibe, but on the national level, labels were surpressing black bands. Producers were getting all the deals and hiring musicians on an individual scale. Micromanagement of the music scene. It sucked.

The fact that you say you can't compare Mint to Prince is part of my whole point. I'm sure he kept a close eye on them since they were local. Prince likes to be the only rooster in the henhouse, so I'm sure he probably borrowed from them on occasion as they probably borrowed from him on occasion, but distributed what he borrowed via instructions rather than "let's go see the Mint tonight and check out the show. I still think he was probably intimidated by them even though he has everything; money, success, etc. The Mint was a band full of multi-instrumentalsts. Everybody played more than one thing, and most importantly EVERYBODY GOT TO WRITE. They were a reminder that it could be done. Like T, T, T, Fishbone, the Family Stand and Portrait, they symbolized black unity though music. Now, it seems that most black artists are solo with backing band (ala Prince and the fill-in-the-blank), while the charts still run wild with rock bands, thus leaving the false impression that black folks can't have a band. You asked my opinion, and I gave it. Peace.
[This message was edited Mon May 10 8:36:25 2004 by BlaqueKnight]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

not true.

mochalox said:

Mocha, I know you love you some Stokley, huh? You feelin' that high tenor background he was carrying on "Call My Name"?

BlaqueKnight said:

i miss the band ethos/sound myself.... i wish there were more. i know theres coolys hot box with angela johnson (i think) but i kinda doubt theyll be up to much. but what i meant is that im sure prince liked the idea of having a band again which im sure was motivated by, like you said, local MPLS bands. i dont think prince has ever had a real band, whereby the members all work together and run ideas and music back and forth, its usually just musicians being dictated to by him. which is a shame, but thats the type of guy he is.

check out this funk band breakestra, theyre strictly retro but really good. same for the new mastersounds or sharon jones and the dap kings. poets of rhythm also.

Back in '91 when I was at GlaM SlaM, the stairwell walls 2 the VIP area was covered in desinger grafitti - bearing the names of many black artists and bands from Mother's Finest 2 Parliment et all.

One stood out from the rest and really caught my eye - it bore the legend: 'FISHBONE'

I thought that was SO damned cool.
[This message was edited Mon May 10 10:32:12 2004 by bananacologne]

Blaque,I understand your thoughts.I don't find them crazy or outlandish. I just am not in a position to know the truth. However,I know that I am sooo grateful for Prince and all the black rock bands.I am grateful for the white ones like u2,the police,zep,and so on,as well. 24-7 spyz is another underrated "great " band and there are reggae bands that I think were/are incredoible also.
I always wanted Fishbone to have a huge record so they could get their due respect ,make some money to keep going,and touch more that could possibly "feel" them.there are more black kids out there who would lovce rock and different sounds ,but they think they have to like only rap or the crap they call "r&b" these days.

Fishbone is an incredible band with almost too much to say.They are a collective genius. I hate that they always get left behind and under the radar. I wish Proince wouyld have whatever it would take to let them have free rein of his facilities and resources to create as much as possible and ttd,as well.He can afford it and these guys are just too much.If he reallyw anted to have a successful record label he could do that. That would be sooo cool and I'd buy everything available.

Fishbone,for one,deserve all the accolades in the world. I discovered my nuttsack because of Fishbone. Parliament and Cameo brought me Prince.Prince brought me Hendrix,Jimi,and Stevie.All that brought me to Fishbone et al. I felt,all of a sudden, there were others like me.

Did Something ever go down between Mint Condition and Prince? I noticed that in the liner notes for " Mint Factory", they go out of their way to thank everybody in the MPLS music scene EXCEPT Prince...

paligap said:

Noticed that, too. I wonder?.... Wait, remember Kerry Lewis is kin to Terry Lewis. Maybe Jam and Lewis basically told them not to bother with Prince and that they would help them (which they did). Who knows? Like I said, I think Prince may have been jealous of them anyway.

no, in the lifes aquarium album, im sure that in the liner notes, mint wrote something like 'to prince. who got this whole ball rolling' or 'who passed the baton first' or something like that.