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PrintableSupernova said: Once again, the point is missed by a W I D E margin. Elvis' success directly paved the way other White artists to reap the benefits (not just monetary) and achieve the historical credit, while leaving the majority of pioneers of Rock and Roll as forgotten as yesterday's leftovers. In other words it led to THE BIG LIE that brainwashed people believe and teach throughout subsequent generations for the rest of their lives. This type of bullshit is the reason people should be required to take Black History classes instead of being restricted to a the whitewashed lie of American history. If you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you.
<< Nope, actually it's making the point...if you're really saying that the MAIN reason you feel Elvis "stole" >> :::::swish::::: That point went over your head too. I never said he stole anything. I said I felt Codshort's position on his assessment of the Elvis situation. I personally don't use the word "stolen" for that, I use a much more ugly term for it. But there are many, many people who use the word "stolen" about this issue and I definitely understand why. The fact that you keep bringing that inaccurate assumption up in the rest of your post makes it irrelevant for me to address the majority of it. Nothing was "missed" by me, trust me...you responded to MY post in which I said that using the word "stole" ruffles feathers, and that I could understand why...the only thing you keep repeating is that OTHERS have given Elvis credit for the "creation" of rock and roll, so therefore it's fair game to say HE "stole" black music...what the...??..lol... << nobody here is doubting the profound influence on rock that any of these black musical pioneers have had >>
Damn. If you REALLY believe that you're extremely naive and in the process proving my point. POINT OUT WHICH post says that 1) Elvis invented Rock and Roll..2) Black musical pioneers didn't have much influence on rock... I'll wait, but I guarantee that you won't find a post that says anything even CLOSE to either of these two things...and that's what I said in my post, that "nobody HERE is douting the profound influence on rock that any of these black musical pioneers have had"...so lecturing us on who's who in black rock is unnecessary. This type of culture banditry has been happening ALL the time with regard to Black culture (and many other non-White cultures) in a myriad of ways when it comes to the history of White America and what they LOVE to ALWAYS take credit for. If that's hard for you to believe then there is nothing I can say through Prince.org to get you to realize it.
Typical overreaction that I alway come across when it comes to subjects like this..lol..it's like it's and either/or with you....either "Elvis stole black music", or "Elvis invented rock and roll"...trying to say that NEITHER is correct--which anyone not emotionally wrapped up in this subject would have CLEARLY seen I was saying--is just not possible according to your posts...I say "Elvis didn't 'steal' anything", and you automatically ASSUME that I think that NOBODY ANYWHERE has taken credit for ANYTHING they themselves haven't done...Geez, find that middle area, Super, it really does exist.. This is about historical accuracy and the fact that many Black Rock and Roll musicians had careers on life support or left for dead after Elvis and the fact that he paved the way for other White performers. The Black Rock and Roll artists that actually did have successful careers back then compared to those who didn't at the expense of Elvis and people like him is a MUCH, MUCH larger percentage. And that's no exaggeration. Historical accuracy is NOT a privilege, it's a right. Just another right that Blacks have to fight for.
AT THE EXPENSE OF ELVIS??...LoL..Puh-leeze...even you yourself said that "middle--class White America" couldn't and wouldn't handle seeing black men doing what Elvis was doing...which means--HELLO--that it wasn't ELVIS that kept them from further success..it was THEIR SKIN COLOR AND THE RACISM THAT WAS RAMPANT AT THE TIME!!....I can't believe you'd attempt to portray it as "if not for Elvis, all these black rock artist would have been huge..."... If people aren't learned enough to know what I'm talking about at a deeper level than this has gone to, then I really doubt this is an issue that can be grasped on Prince.org.
Try not to either overlook the fact that NOBODY ON PRINCE.ORG is doing anything you're claiming(ie: saying black rock artists had little if any impact on the development of rock and roll), or to patronize us P.org members as being unable to grasp such a "deep" subject as how racism has played a part in rock's history...Like I said, I'll gladly wait until you find the post in which anyone said that Elvis invented rock and roll, black rock pioneers had little to do with the creation of rock and roll, or that anyone here has been unable to grasp how racism has left some black artists penniless while making some white artist millions...What's apparently impossible to you to believe is that someone can understand, know, and agree with all that, and STILL say "but Elvis didn't "steal" from the black community...he was influenced as much as anything"... My original post simply said, I could see why using the word "stole" would ruffle some feathers, and I can't say I completely disagree with that...there's a HUGE stinkin' difference between saying "Elvis got undue credit for his part in the creation of rock and roll", and "Elvis stole from the black community"...now, if YOU can't grasp THAT fact, then maybe you're right..this topic IS too heady for the average P.org member to grasp... | |
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Supernova said: Talk to any brainwashed person who either knows no better, or is in denial and they'll tell you Elvis Presley "invented" Rock and Roll. Yet Rock and Roll was being peformed in the late 1940s by Blacks. Where is the mention of those Blacks when people talk about the "invention" of this genre?
I thought, instead of us just throwing rhetoric back and forth, I'd actually go and see what's being said about Blacks when the "invention" of rock and roll is being talked about...to see where this "brainwashing" is taking place nowadays... "In its purest form, Rock & Roll has three chords, a strong, insistent back beat, and a catchy melody. Early rock & roll drew from a variety of sources, primarily blues, R&B, and country, but also gospel, traditional pop, jazz, and folk. All of these influences combined in a simple, blues-based song structure that was fast, danceable, and catchy. The first wave of rock & rollers — Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Buddy Holly, Bo Diddley, Bill Haley, Gene Vincent, the Everly Brothers, and Carl Perkins, among many others — set the template for rock & roll that was followed over the next four decades."--All Music Guide, history of rock "This page begins with the African musical traits brought here beginning in 1619 and attempts to trace their fusion with the European music brought here by the colonists. The story of this musical interaction is also the story of American popular music and includes the plantation songs of Stephen Foster, the ragtime of Scott Joplin, the blues of Bessie Smith, the jazz of Count Basie, and the jump bands of Louis Jordan. The knowledge of the stream of American popular music allows one to understand that rock and roll was a natural result of the combined forces that effected the music."--The History Of Rock and Roll; 1955-1964, The Golden Decade "Disc Jockey, Alan Freed, began playing some of the more commercial sounding black "rhythm and blues" songs (called, "race records" for most of this century) and he played them for white teenagers over radio station WJW in Cleveland. In order to expand his audience to include whites, Freed astutely applied the old term, "rock and roll," to now mean this music with the raw, heavy back beat. In July of 1951, Floyd Warner Associates in Chicago claimed in a press release that the Dominoes ("Sixty Minute Man") were "the greatest Rock and Roll performers in the world." On March 21, 1952, the first rock and roll concert took place at the Cleveland Arena. Of course, this first show caused a riot as Alan Freed and 30,000 people packed a building that could seat only 10,000. 15,000 more fans waited on the streets. 1952 also saw Bill Haley become the first white man to intercept this formerly all-black musical idiom with his record called, "Rock the Joint." Out on the West Coast, Lloyd Price recorded his rock sounding hit, "Lawdy, Miss Claudy." Four years before Alan Freed's motion picture, "Rock, Rock, Rock," Amos Milburn recorded a song with the same title (1952)."--History of Rock and Roll, pt. 1 Super, I could go on and on and on...and I could quote from literally thousands of publications, both physical and electronic, that cover the history of rock and roll..and it would be next to impossible to find one that does NOT give proper respect and acknowledgement to rock's early roots and formation in Black music...so when I see that you say "Where is the mention of those Blacks when people talk about the "invention" of this genre?", as though it's next to impossible to find anything on the subject, I gotta wonder how you reached that conclusion??... Trust me, more people than you may realize know about the history of rock, nothing's being kept from them when it comes to black artists' roles in the creation of this genre...it's history is being written about and discussed, for the most part, rather accurately...(that is, except for maybe how the unfairness of racism played it's roll in everything...but that's a sub-topic which requires it's own dialogue, so would only be touched upon in a larger article on the history of rock anyway...)... | |
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codshort said: look at and listen to Jackie Wilson and tell me Elvis didn't cop his ENTIRE style. From the hair, to the clothes, to the moves, to the sound...he stole it all. But Jackie gets called...."the black Elvis".....yeah, right!
Can't comment on the rest, but Elvis' hairdo was first worn when he was a truck driver...the pompadour(or however you spell it) was THE hairstyle of truck drivers back then, so when Elvis got promoted to truck driver, he changed his hairstyle. That was before any record contracts and really had nothing to do with Jackie Wilson... | |
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John Travolta -- I really hate that Tarentino foisted this douchebag on us again.
Gwyneth Paltrow -- Has she ever had a hit movie besides Seven? What's so special about her? Nicholas Cage -- gag. Tom Hanks -- He's Tome Hanks in every movie. I do like some of them, but jeeze, overkill.... Jackie Chan -- I can't really tell you why. Sandra Bullock -- see Gwyneth Paltrow, but substitute Speed for Seven. Mariah Cary -- It is my sworn duty as a Madonna fan to hate her. And she makes it easy. Russell Crow -- People say he's a dreamboat, but I don't see it. Plus he's an asshole. Gloria Alred -- Does she have any suits that aren't pink? Christina Aguilera -- She's got better pipes than Britney, but no direction. She has a spacey look in her eye. Which is probably why she uses a paint roller to apply her eye-makeup--distraction. Eminem -- Gaybasher that wears a tight tank top, earrings, and bleached hair. I've gotten laid by guys that look less gay than him. Marc Anthony -- Sex symbol? I think not. Ben Affleck -- Not helped by the fact that he's miscast in the upcoming Daredevil movie. Anne Heche -- Though I do find her moon-man language hilarious. Janet Jackson -- Actually, not her. But her fans. I've gotten banned from their mailing list several times. And she's getting that spacey look in her eye that MJ has. Divas -- any r&b female singer (strike that, any female singer) ever referred to as a diva that's only been on the charts since the mid-90's at the very latest. Kid Rock -- nuff said. Fred Durst -- nuff said. Modern rock bands, especially Creed -- All sound the same, watered down. Dave Matthews -- Okay, his music has everything to it that I should like. But I just don't. Plus, I'm at a college whose studenty body lives and dies for DMB. Okay, that's enough for now.... No, wait.... Sharon Stone -- Idiot. Coco Lee / Faye Wong -- I have no idea who either of them is, but I have a trio of stalkers from alt.fan.madonna that love her to pieces and scour all of usenet for my every utterance and repost it to AFM to taunt me from afar because I can't download the group. | |
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WB/SN Seems to me you guys are merely arguing how high up is up. You're both keen on pointing out that rock & roll has its beginnngs well before Elvis and that he may have gotten undue amount of recognition for his role.
More likely he was a puppet of the emerging rock press and popular media, though if it comes to actual acts of thievery I'd point to Sam Phillips at Sun Records who made a point of underpaying black musicians and depriving them of performance credits and royalties, falsifying their composer credits and attribuing their work to someone white. I can't see a crime perpetrated on the "black community" (most of them could care less about blues musicians) . Nothing conspiratorial; just pure unadulterated greed. Far be it from Elvis to object because he was geting the bulk of claims attributed to him (these Southern crackers were some butt ugly fuckers). In all fairness, Phillips had a pretty hot set of white boys in the studios (guitarist Scotty Moore and bassist Bill Black), as they had to listen carefully to the black musicians routed their way for the shortest amount of time and actually ape their fingerings to capture their feel. Elvis was the white guy to front this combo cuz he had the chops and the acceptable look. Maybe the universe has paid us back in the bad karma. I find great joy in ridiculing him unto his death as FAT ELVIS and his silly cache of Hollywood films. test | |
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I forgot Carson Daly, Danny Bonaduce, Emeril Legasse, that Dahrma girl, Nathan Lane, Jay Leno, Martin Short, Jeff Bridges, anyone that ever proposes on television or in any other public way, John Byrne, Todd McFarlane, Joe Casey (the last 3 are in comics, btw, if you're wondering), Bryant Gumbel, Al Roker, Kathy Lee Gifford, Cuba Gooding Jr., and Jennifer Love Hewitt | |
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Kid Rock fuckin' rocks his ass off. That's a pimpin' ass trailer park white boy! He's defintiely got a bit of funk in him. Most I've seen is out of that IMAX movie and the videos, but he ain't bad.
I don't follow the Mariah/Madonna thing. Madonna has a obvious stage presence MC severely lacks. MC hits those hi notes, but she's real stiff adn wooden when her titties aren't jiggling. Maybe its because of the charts and sales? I dunno, but Maddy ain't done too shabby. test | |
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PFunkjazz said: WB/SN Seems to me you guys are merely arguing how high up is up. You're both keen on pointing out that rock & roll has its beginnngs well before Elvis and that he may have gotten undue amount of recognition for his role.
LoL...I think you're right, pfunk...which is why I'm known as a hairsplitter-supreme 'round these parts..(ptui!!..spits tobaccy into a nearby jug...) But my first post wasn't hairsplitting..lol..just a comment about how people get upset when the word "stole" is used concerning Elvis...I really didn't expect it to go down the path it did...but by jingo, my hairsplitting tools are always at the ready when they're needed...lol So, who's up is higher up, Super..??....  | |
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MARIAH CAREY: If I have to hear her repeat one more "ghettofied" version of her upbringing and how she was "persecuted" i am literally going to vomit. we all can lay claim to some traumatic childhood story, but c'mon!!! She mentions this in EVERY single MFing interview... and at the end of the day... who cares? she's an adult now who's insecurities are so apparent that her clothes are transparent. hmm, Mariah, you should tell your stylist that we can see the outline sac from your boob job when you wear those gowns that open at the sides. too bad she made it all about her instead of the music. now she's just a wanna-be britney.
HALLE BERRY: Normally i really like her... very beautiful woman, but this unecessary hype for MONSTER'S BALL has done got on my gottdamn last nerve. She was good, but not GREAT and certainly not OSCAR performance... but hey... i must be the only one who can see that... MIND YOU.. I AM DOWN W/MY PEEPS getting those honors... but this one feels "charitable". My opinion of course  | |
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<< nobody here is doubting the profound influence on rock that any of these black musical pioneers have had >>
Damn. If you REALLY believe that you're extremely naive and in the process proving my point. ----- << POINT OUT WHICH post says that 1) Elvis invented Rock and Roll..2) Black musical pioneers didn't have much influence on rock... >> See, this is why it's not worth going into over and over. I never said any poster HERE said Elvis invented Rock, and never said any poster HERE said Blacks didn't have much to do with it. When you keep missing the point it's not worth the energy to redundantly go over it. This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes. | |
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PFunkjazz said: More likely he was a puppet of the emerging rock press and popular media, though if it comes to actual acts of thievery I'd point to Sam Phillips at Sun Records who made a point of underpaying black musicians and depriving them of performance credits and royalties, falsifying their composer credits and attribuing their work to someone white. I can't see a crime perpetrated on the "black community" (most of them could care less about blues musicians) . Nothing conspiratorial; just pure unadulterated greed. Far be it from Elvis to object because he was geting the bulk of claims attributed to him (these Southern crackers were some butt ugly fuckers).
This I didn't even know. Just more fuel for some people's fire, I guess. This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes. | |
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wellbeyond said:[quote] PFunkjazz said: WB/SN Seems to me you guys are merely arguing how high up is up. You're both keen on pointing out that rock & roll has its beginnngs well before Elvis and that he may have gotten undue amount of recognition for his role.
So, who's up is higher up, Super..??....
I think everyone's on the east/west side, instead of north/south.  This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes. | |
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Damn, Supernova and WB managed to turn this into a really interesting thread. | |
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Elvis grew up with the music,, was as poor as could possibly be when he was a kid. He was wearing side burns and slicking his hair before Jackie wilson was even a star. He was just singing the music he grew up on. he stole nothing. A certain music does not belong to anybody.It's a shame that so many black folks dislike for Elvis is based on Bullsh*t. It's good that there are folks here like wellbeyond that have done their research. Get educated people. A ripoff artist would not have sold as many records as Elvis has or would have the longevity he had..(50's, 60's and 70's).People Like james brown, B.B King, Sammy davis jr, Jackie wilson were all friends of his and were around at that time and they have had nothing but good things to say about the man, they have said he did not steal anything. Now if people who were there, black people who were there say that then what does that say. That says you have no idea what you are talking about. And anybody who would make fun of someone's drug problems that ended up killing them..well that says more about you than anybody else. | |
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Get over it. This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes. | |
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When "City of Angels" was shooting outside the building of my old job, I opened the window and screamed "I HOLD MEG RYAN PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH OF MODERN CINEMA!!!!"
Very immature, I know, but damn it felt good. | |
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OH, and I forgot. Just thinking about Scott Stapp makes me break out in hives. GROSS!!!! | |
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***Pamela Anderson---I put her on my list,but I have one question.A few years ago,she had her breast implants removed,right? But I saw her at the Grammys last night with Kid rock,and it looks like she put them back! Are my eyes deceiving me?? Anyone else notice this?? | |
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Supernova said
"If people aren't learned enough to know what I'm talking about at a deeper level than this has gone to, then I really doubt this is an issue that can be grasped on Prince.org." Thank You They say money don't buy you luv. But it'll help w/ the search. | |
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Uh Aaron if u readn this , as u cansee I wasnt the only one feeling that way about Janet! Duh! Its obvious! I agree Janet gets on my damn nerves cuz she tries so har to be sexy and then misses! She shoots then misses! Shoots then misses!
She is in great shape but for some reason Im not attratced to her like I used to be. All that behind the scenes stuff showinf her changing was like seeing a lil gurl playing with adult clothes. She needs to b herself or if that is herself im not attracted to her punana! Put some clothed on and stop all that fake stuff. even when she brought that guy out aho acted gay it was fake! She acts so fake I dont get it! She has enought appeal to make it on her own even wiothout a great voice. I agree she needs to grow up and kill all the childish games of what she thinks turns men on she's a joke who i've lost alot of repset for. | |
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ACTING fake might be a JACKSON family trait. Noticed a while back they all started high-voiced and nasally like. test | |
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GeMiNiSFuNkYJaMs said: Uh Aaron if u readn this , as u cansee I wasnt the only one feeling that way about Janet! Duh! Its obvious! I agree Janet gets on my damn nerves cuz she tries so har to be sexy and then misses! She shoots then misses! Shoots then misses!
I know, I've read pages and pages of your Janet Jackson psychoanalysis in the chatroom. I'm glad you've found another outlet for it | |
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DavidEye said: ***Pamela Anderson---I put her on my list,but I have one question.A few years ago,she had her breast implants removed,right? But I saw her at the Grammys last night with Kid rock,and it looks like she put them back! Are my eyes deceiving me?? Anyone else notice this??
Back when this happened, a few weeks later it was reported that she DID have them removed, but replaced with saline implants. The sedond part of the story wasn't as heavily reported on. I'm not sure how I remember such minutiae about Pamela Anderson's breasts (gag), but there you go.... | |
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DavidEye said: ***Pamela Anderson---I put her on my list,but I have one question.A few years ago,she had her breast implants removed,right? But I saw her at the Grammys last night with Kid rock,and it looks like she put them back! Are my eyes deceiving me?? Anyone else notice this??
I agree.. I just saw her on Howard Stern's E! show.. and she hit the wall!! her face is starting to age.. her forehead.. everything below her eyes looked "bad".. and those FAKE BOOBS!! wow.. are they bad.. they look like shit.. pretty sad how she has fallen to the level of going out with that white trash no talent kid rock! she is a professional groupie.. * another person who I think is a bore and can't act.. is Matt Damon! .. he was good in a few things.. (good will hunting) BUT in dogma he was aweful.. if you notice "they" are not hyping him much anymore. | |
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maharet said: BRITNEY SPEARS!!!!!
 CAN SHE GOOOOO AWAYYYYY! SHE'S DOESN'T HAVE ONE TALENTED BONE IN HER!her talented bone is her producer  Disclaimer: All sentences resembling insults alive or otherwise, are purely coincedental. | |
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i swear i will not go back to the US until that not-a-woman-not-a-child CREATURE britney spears is gone!!! there's not room enuff in the country for the two of us!!
man am i sick of that no-talent critter. | |
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These are the following ahem artists that get on my nerves:
1. Britney Spears....she can't sing, dance or act yet she gets all the endorsements, attention etc while artists like India Irie are often overlooked. She is as phony as her boobs! 2. BSB, N*Sync and all those crappy white boy bands who are now trying to go R'n'B in order to give themselves musical cred and longevity. I hate the fact that they ripped off The Jackson 5 and New Edition yet the press portray these no talent himbos as pioneers. Give me a fucking break! 3. Rosie O'Donnell.....she IS a hypercrit for criticising other performer's lifestyles etc like she is some moral crusader (her tirade against Tom Selleck was revolting)...yet the bitch had bones in her own closet! She only came out cause she was leaving her dumb ass show. I hope she falls off the face of the earth! 4. Smart mouth radio personalities like Mancow who made that discusting joke about Prince's mom. It was really mean sprited and sick...its never funny when a person dies whether they are famous or not! He's just some lame ass Howard Stern wannabe! 5. Madonna, she ain't nothing but a rip off merchant yet the press kiss her ass saying that she is innovative. Yeah sure she is.....she fucked her way to the top (had 13 abortions along the way the most recent being in 1997 when she was slumming it with unemployed "actor" Andy Bird)...getting with a record producer (Jellybean) actor (Sean Penn) Holloywood legend (Warren Beatty.....yet couldn't pick up any pointers about acting LOL and now she is hoping that hot shot director Guy Ritchie can help her out.....I have 2 words to say: Shanghi Surprise (lame ass movie she did with Sean in 1986 where she played a missionary ROFLAMO)! 6. Bobby Brown and Whitney Houston for being total crackheads. Poor Bobbi Kristina is gonna be one messed up adult if they don't get their act (or in Whitney's case weight) together.
7. Destiny's Child...cause they are overexposed and fakers....I'm so sick and tired of seeing them rip into those ex-members in every interview they have done (eg Vibe) who I hope they succeed in suing their asses and trying to act all innocent. Come on everyone knows that DC is just a stepping stone for Beyonce "the second coming of Diana Ross" to go solo....and when those girls stood up for themselves....they got the chop! 8. Robert Downey Jr.....total headcase who keeps messing up, yet still gets the plum Hollywood roles. Had that been an actress she'd be finished! 9. Alicia Keys....copying note for note James Brown's Its a Man's World for Fallin and not giving him any credit. She should have thanked him for all the Grammys she got. For someone who claims to love the old school of music, it's utterly disrespectful to steal from a pioneer! She's overrated and overexposed! 10. Christina Aguleria. Sure she has a good voice but her snobbing attitude and whinging about wanting to be a credible artist really pisses me off! Cause everyone knows that ppl like her Britney, Samantha Mumba (who couldn't act out of a paper bag in the utterly boring Time Machine) Mandy, Jessica etc are puppets who have a very short lifespan (eg. think Debbie Gibson and Tiffany). | |
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Just thought of a few more...
***Tom Cruise---What a loser! He divorces his beautiful,talented wife and wastes NO time finding a new "soul mate" in Penelope Cruz.In the meantime,we hear rumors about an alleged affair with a gay porno actor.Oh well,at least his personal dramas are WAY more exciting than his crappy movies:) ***Enrique Iglesias---His singing is vapid,and his songs are mushy and lifeless.So,exactly what DOES he have going for him? Let's see...he's a good-looking guy with a famous father.Yeah,that must be it!! ***Mick Jagger---I like Mick and I've been a Rolling Stones fan for years.But,come on,retire already! How many more flop albums must they do before they realize that it's over? These guys are WAY past their prime,and they look kinda silly on-stage these days.(Sorry,KingSausage). ***The Jacksons---In Quincy Jones' biography,he claims that the Jackson Brothers are jealous of their famous brother Michael.He points out that,everytime Michael comes out with an album,THEY decide to make a "follow-up" album of their own.So,it should come as no surprise that,after MJ's 'Invincible',they are now working on a "reunion" album,an album that only a few people will even care about! ***Pink---Did you guys see her on the Grammy Awards,with that silly,20-year old "New Wave" look? Somebody should remind her that the 80s are OVER! ***BBD(Bell Biv Devoe)---Most people don't even know it,but these losers actually have a new CD in stores,in their desperate attempt to make a "comeback".But,with offensive new songs like "Dance, Bitch!",I'd say they should find new work. ***The Republican Party---It seems that some Republicans in Congress (Trent Lott) are mad at Tom Daschle and the Democrats for criticizing Bush's war strategy.Fuck,when Clinton was President,THEY had no trouble voicing their discontent with EVERYTHING he did.Can you say "Double Standard"? | |
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Beyonce!!!!! | |
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Guess who???
PRINCE AND LENNY KRAVITZ!    | |
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