They are always labeled as great entertainers but not given enough credit for being artists.

Let's start with Michael Jackson and ignore his post-Dangerous output (History/Invincible). Here was a guy who could literally do ALL styles of music, he had funk/pop/disco/gospel/hard rock/classic rock/ballads/r&b all present in his albums. Name one artist who can do all styles of music as well as Michael Jackson, his Dangerous album had an R&B classic Who is it, hard rock classic "Give in to me", pop classic "Black or White", gospel classic "Will You be There", not to mention great dance tracks like JAM or beautiful ballads like FOR ALL TIME. Can Kurt Cobain do that?

When you buy an album from an artist, 95% of the time it has songs from one style of music like pop,rock,etc. Imagine how difficult it is for an artist to take on different styles of music and then make songs in each genre that are good enough to compete with the genre's best musicians? THAT takes talent.

Then to top it off MJ and Madonna blow away their competitors in stage production and concert performances.

They are truly great.

Madonna can do everything dance,ballads, gospel...how many female artists have her versatility and can deliver hit after hit like her?

U kidding me? They get more than enough attention and props as it is, I dont think they even need another thread here 2 be honest.

True but not enough credit for their TALENT in crafting songs.

HELL MUTHA no!!!

SylvesterStalloneMJ said:

michael = not underrated. madonna = yes, overrated. don't get me wrong...i like madonna. i can only take so much of her. i think she has shifted more to concentrating on image rather than talent. not to mention, she only started singing live recently. that is not my interpretation of a performer.
[This message was edited Fri Apr 9 12:49:35 2004 by dealodelandron]

dealodelandron said:

Go watch this:

(Madonnasurvivial.com)

CinisterCee said:

I love her performance of "Dress You Up" from that video. On that tour she didn't dance so much, it was mostly just her standing there singing and she's actually pretty damn good. She would dance only during the instrumental breaks. She was so dynamic though that it didn't matter. A LOT different from her later tours. I have an .mpeg of "Dress You Up"...it's probably available on Kazaa.
[This message was edited Fri Apr 9 13:59:17 2004 by VoicesCarry]

VoicesCarry said:

"Dress You Up" was my favorite on there, too. I've seen video channels play that performance (which WAS SUNG LIVE ) as the official video for "Dress You Up".

CinisterCee said:

I know, it's a really great vocal performance. It was actually the released video for "Dress You Up".

Madonna is underrated as a songwriter and producer. Th vast majority of her lyrics and melodiesare written by her but no one gives her credit for the work she does there. And everyone as of late has been talking about how William Orbit and Mirwais did on the Past Madonna Albums forgetting that the person who has final say and the most influence on the album is Madonna. What have WO or Mirwais done since Madonna? Anyone?

VoicesCarry said:

Hm! noted.

ehuffnsd said:

I don't know about Mirwais, but William Orbit has done work with other acts since Madonna. Mostly pop performers too:

All Saints
Appleton
Melanie C
Beck
P!nk
No Doubt
Ricky Martin (although Madonna was featured on it)

I don't think either of them are underrated. Their public images have overshadowed their musical output.

I've always been unsure of Madonna's contribution to her own music. Too many conflicting stories.

SylvesterStalloneMJ said:

I have to respectfully disagree with you. I should say that I have a huge bias against people who are primarily recognised as video artists as both MJ and Madonna are so that will of course colour my opinion. With the amount of press that they both receive how can you think they are underrated? If they wanted to be taken seriously as artists there are many things they could do. Stop being such media whores for one. Try concentrating on being a musician rather than a celebrity is another one. And I may be wrong but I do not believe MJ or Madonna's credits at all. I think if either one of them had to write and produce an album on their own it would stink.

I know many of you will disagree with me. That's cool. I just hope I did an ok job of outling my reasons for disagreeing with the post.

I'm surprised nobody else mentioned this but I just thought of one artist who can do all the styles you mentioned much better than MJ. Prince, of course.

I am not a huge fan of Kurt Cobain but I think he could have done great music in other styles if he was given the chance. I don't think you would get great R & B music out of him but he was a talented writer.

SylvesterStalloneMJ said:

Classic rock is not a style of music. How a rock song withstands the test of time is what makes it a classic, or not.


Get out more.


Well, Cobain can't do much of anything anymore.


See my response to your second quote.

Michaels approach to songwriting is quite unique! The way he uses his own voice as a hook or a line in a song is quite rare (as far as I know), that alone should be noted! His skills as a songwriter and composer/producer are greatly unsung but maybe if he released more albums ALOT more ofter, critics would have more work to look at!

Michael, PLEASE release albums every year or so

As for Madonna? "Ray of light" is overated for me personally, but thanx to her vast output of music, I like a handfull of her songs! I don't dig the "Oh shes clever 'cause she knows how to deal with the press" shit! She makes attention by changing her image, WOW! That sure is talent! But honestly, her songwritings alright, like janets really, but janet uses better producers (personally) and (up untill her 1993 janet. album) did not have to rely on being (then) overtly sexual to get attention! (remember janet was always covered up 'till that "Love will never do" video, then after that more agressive sexually, but thats janets perogative so...)

How much more attention to their songwriting do you want?

Michael probably could churnish some kind of an album completely on his own, but as for Madonna... forget it. She's not really doing much more than just writing the lyrics to her songs.

No.

SylvesterStalloneMJ said:

Oh God that was good one!





Oh, but were you serious though?

CinisterCee said:

speaking of...why isn't this on DVD?

I don't think Madonna is underrated at all.She gets alot of respect and recognition for her music.When she first burst onto the scene,critics thought she would be just another one-hit wonder....all style and no substance.But when she released the song "Live To Tell" in 1986,people began to look at her differently.And then came songs like "Papa Don't Preach" and "Like A Prayer",mature,introspective songs that were miles ahead of the bubblegum pop that made up her early albums.She continued to grow and evolve as an artist,which is why she is still around after more than 20 years.Her recent albums have gained her alot of artistic credibility.By the time the Grammy folks woke up and (finally) rewarded her with four Grammys for 'Ray Of Light',she had already proven herself as a serious,committed and risk-taking artist with something to say.So no,I wouldn't say she is underrated at all.


MJ is extremely talented,but I really don't think he has grown and evolved as well as Madonna has.I mean,let's face it,he's still stuck in dance/R&B territory.Like his sister Janet,he really needs to try something new,bold and challenging.
[This message was edited Mon Apr 12 2:07:32 2004 by DavidEye]

Novabreaker said:

Now THIS bugs me.

Michael Jackson HAS written and produced much of his work by himself. He does it all the time. Practically all of his best songs are solely written and produced by Michael.

Who Is It, Speechless, Morphine, They Don't Care About Us, Stranger In Moscow, Little Susie, Money.

No co-producers involved in any of those tracks.

And if you listen to OTW and Thriller Special Editions, you'll hear the original demo recordings of Michael at home doing Billie Jean and Don't Stop. These classics were both solely written and composed by Michael, and from the demo you can see that Q's co-production on these tracks was minimal if anything.

They Don't Care About Us

Written and composed by Michael Jackson. Produced by Michael Jackson for MJJ Productions Inc. String arrangement by Michael Jackson. Percussion by Michael Jackson. Background vocals by Michael Jackson. Recorded and Mixed by Michael Jackson and Bruce Sweiden.

Stranger In Moscow

Written and composed by Michael Jackson. Produced by Michael Jackson for MJJ Productions Inc. Drum programming by Michael Jackson. Background vocals by Michael Jackson.

Morphine

Written and composed by Michael Jackson. Produced by Michael Jackson for MJJ Productions Inc.
Engineered by Michael Jackson, Keith Cohan, Eddie De Lena and Mick Guzauski.
Arrangement by Michael Jackson.
Classical arrangement by Michael Jackson.
Drums: Michael Jackson.
Guitar: Michael Jackson and Slash.
Percussion: Michael Jackson, Brad Buxer.

Superfly Sister

Written and composed by Michael Jackson. Produced by Michael Jackson for MJJ Productions Inc.
Arranged by Michael Jackson and Bryan Loren.
Recorded by Richard Cotrell and Dave Way.
Vocal arrangement by Michael Jackson.
Lead and Rhythm guitars by Michael Jackson and Bryan Loren.
Drum programming by Michael Jackson and Bryan Loren.
Keyboards and synths by Michael Jackson.

Earth Song

Written and composed by Michael Jackson. Produced by Michael Jackson for MJJ Productions Inc.
String arrangements by Michael Jackson.
Sequencer arrangements by Michael Jackson.
Keyboard arrangements by Michael Jackson.
Horn arrangements by Michael Jackson and Jerry Hey.
Drums and percussion by Michael Jackson and Bill Bottrell.
Guitar by Michael Jackson and Rob Hoffman.

Little Susie

Written and composed by Michael Jackson. Produced by Michael Jackson for MJJ Productions Inc.
Arrangement by Michael Jackson.
String arrangement by Michael Jackson.
Piano performance by Brad Buxer.
Music box by Michael Jackson.
Keyboard arrangement by Michael Jackson.
Orchestral arrangement by Michael Jackson.

Money

Written and composed by Michael Jackson. Produced by Michael Jackson for MJJ Productions Inc.
Drum programming by Michael Jackson.
Percussion by Michael Jackson.
String arrangement by Michael Jackson.
All other instruments performed by Michael Jackson and Brad Buxer.

Childhood

Written and composed by Michael Jackson. Produced by Michael Jackson for MJJ Productions Inc.
Arrangement by Michael Jackson.
String arrangement by Michael Jackson.
Orchestras conducted by Elmer Bernstein and Susie Katayama.
Piano performance by Jim Wright.

D.S.

Written and composed by Michael Jackson. Produced by Michael Jackson for MJJ Productions Inc.
Arrangement by Michael Jackson.
String arrangement by Michael Jackson.
Lead and rhythm guitar by Slash and Michael Jackson.
Bass by Doug Grigsby
Drums and percussion by Michael Jackson.

As an artist, Michael Jackson is underrated.

dealodelandron said:

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you

I admit that,in the early days of her career,the "image" played a major part.But nowadays,she is definitely more focused on the music.Creatively,she is in her prime.Her last three albums show an amazing amount of musical growth.

WildStyle said:

True. Few critics focus on his music these days. However, once upon a time...

DavidEye said:

But sadly the last two albums don't have many good songs.

Cloudbuster said:

In all honesty,it's hard to focus on his music when there are always so many "distractions" and controversy surrounding him.

Cloudbuster said:

Funny,I remember you saying that you like 'American Life'

Cloudbuster said:

Uh huh. But Invincible is an incredible album! Or something. The "last two albums" include Music. So between "Impressive Instant", "Music", "WIFLFAG", "Don't Tell Me", "Gone", and "I Deserve It" where exactly is the absence of good material?
[This message was edited Mon Apr 12 5:32:44 2004 by VoicesCarry]