WildStyle said:

missed a spot? like her entire face?

SylvesterStalloneMJ said:

While I don't know if your use of the term "whitey" is helpful you're right - the whole pale skin thing effects all of us unfortunately. Hell even White people trip on those amongst them w/ "porcelean (sp?) skin". It's really trippy

VoicesCarry said:

Whoa!



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[This message was edited Fri Apr 9 1:48:15 2004 by Christopher]

Cloudbuster said:

yes she was very cute. (even tho sometimes she wears too much makeup)

i always thought Kim was adorable back in the early Junior mafia days....she looked real,short cropped hair,pudgy face....now she looks like the black Joan Rivers...very sad but true...

Very sad.

It's funny, I emailed this to a few friends & most people are like, "What was that about? Only the first two pictures were Lil' Kim, right?" It's so hard to even comprehend somebody doing this shit to themselves, the shit just doesn't compute sometimes. CRAZY!

And yes, I'm trying to keep this thread going cuz this shit is shameful & people need to see it & recognize the sickness

CalhounSq said:

You wacky troublemaker.

ThreadBare said:

Don't jump on me for saying this but maybe she doesn't hate being 'black', she just doesn't like the way she looks. Do caucasians who get tans and collagen lip injections hate being 'white'? This argument comes up a lot, a non-white person getting plastic surgery is trying to be white. So this means what? The sole goal of plastic surgery is to look white. Why do white people get surgery then?
I've always had my doubts about MJ hating being 'black'. When he talks about being black, it comes accross quite subtely that he doesn't hate being 'black'. He refers to his style of dancing as 'black', all but one of his childhood idols were 'black'. He employs (not all) 'black' nannies to look after his children. All his albums are primarily 'black' music. He will go on forever about how wonderful his mother is. I've heard him talk about how black people are somehow just naturally stronger, which is why God tested them with slavery, cause he knew they could handle it. (Yeah strange argument but there you go) I just think he hates himself and will change anything about himself simply because it's him and he hates it.

roodboi said:

rainman1985 said:

I won't jump on ya My shift just ended but I'm glad to respond when I get home...

rainman1985 said:

I think, to a certain extent, you have a point about people just liking something and wanting to alter their bodies to have that something, whatever that something might be. So, if a dude wants pectoral implants without the work of exercising, to help him fill out that blazer or attract women, then he'll go get it. Fine.

Cross-racial alterations, on the other hand, seem a bit more complex. My mother once remarked how ironic it was that a neighbor of ours was roasting herself in the sun to get a complexion closer to ours, yet she refused to speak to us most of the time (and, yes, we were good neighbors ). Which isn't to suggest that every white person who tans themselves dislikes black people. But in instances where both are the case, that's an interesting paradox -- one that has its roots in the white supremacist mythology that fueled much of America's development.

The same can be said for someone such as Michael Jackson, who has spent much money to go from being a medium-toned, broad-nosed brother to a tall, male version of Helena Bonham Carter (just rented her movie with Guy Pearce and was struck anew by the similarities between her and Jackson). Again, I'll point to the phenomena of historic prejudice shown to black people (particularly within the United States) and of many light-skinned blacks responding to that white supremacist construct by trying to "pass" as whites themselves. Two quick (I'll try, honest) points:

First, Jackson fans are quick to point out his claim of having the skin disorder vitiligo (I've also heard a form of lupus). Believing, for the sake of argument, his claim, I find this interesting: Vitiligo patients have been fairly vocal about the make-up available to them. Apparently, all shades are available, but Jackson opted for a pale look. I'm woefully ignorant of the process by which he has lightened his skin to make it more uniformly pale, but I have to wonder why he chose to go light instead of just using make-up to maintain his original complexion?

Secondly, the documentary footage released last year that showed Jackson with his kids showed something I found extremely interesting. Michael's kids are extremely light-skinned. Actually, masks notwithstanding, they looked white to me. I found it interesting that MJ would try to pass off white kids as his own. His "black" genes, in most instances, would affect his biological progeny a bit more than that, I'd wager. I mean, even his siblings' biracial kids are darker than Michael's. Isn't that odd? Hmmm. The other thing that shocked me was the obvious fact that Jackson was bleaching his son's hair blond.

It's obvious, when you factor in his transformation from black to white, that adopted-child white fantasy, and the hair bleaching, that MJ as a lot of deep-seeded black-hatred issues. No, I'm not surprised that a man who lies about the extent of his obvious plastic surgery also would be in denial about his feelings about being a black man. Not surprised at all.


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[This message was edited Sat Apr 10 23:54:36 2004 by ThreadBare]

Looks Bad. Yuck!

rainman1985 said:

Believe me that was my thought when she got the implants, rocked the blonde weaves & wore the contacts - she's just doing stuff to boost (?) her image of herself, she's enamored w/ the barbie doll look, the blonde thing is about high maintenance, blah blah blah. But when her alterations clearly began to seek identification with another race it got deeper.

I think the contacts are questionable, but maybe that's just me. I know all races have all colors of eyes, but I've just never been fond of that kind of tinkering. Now she's got the pinch in the nose. Granted she hasn't slimmed her nose nearly the way Micheal has (his intent seems to have been to erase any visible trace of Blackness from his facial features) but what was wrong with her nose before? Nothing at all. And she doesn't seem to have changed the size of the nostrils but she's thinned the bridge & added the pinch near the nostrils - why? What's so great about THAT nose?

Now the skin tone thing is the most drastic step. Let's say Lil' Kim doesn't hate being Black, and hell maybe she doesn't. She already has more street cred than she could have ever acheived were she actually White & she won't lose it for the most part. She can still rap, do endorsements (I guess) & make $... maybe she's trying to transcend something with image that I just don't understand. But tell me this - what could possibly be her reason for wanting to have light (almost White) skin? Is it prettier? Does she feel it complements her more than darker skin? Is there something wrong w/ dark skin? If it's as simple as "not liking the way she looks" what is so unlikeable about her dark skin that she's willing to chemically/medically alter it? Especially in spite of the inevitable scrutiny she'll (hopefully) draw due to her fame & already well established identity? Why is light skin SO worth it? Why would it even occur to her? What value is being put on skin color here? And what will it mean to her once she's acheived her goal? What will it mean to others?



Not necessarily. I think people who know they're risking their health yet habitually tan year round despite those risks have some questionable issues about their image & the importance of it but there's probably not a hatred thing going on. They're most likely happy to BE White & they still want to look White while encorporating a little of this & a little of that (the culture vulture thing), yet not erase their features @ the core or go to the other end of the color spectrum. Not that it's even possible but you don't see White people tanning until they're dark like Wesley Snipes & given the choice they probably wouldn't do so. Yet there's a long standing & unfortunate tradition in Black culture of valuing lighter skin & other attributes that are closer to those of White people - it's the habit & history of devaluing Blackness that makes all this shit more complex & hurtful.

The lip thing has always been funny to me b/c Black people (and anyone else who happened to be born w/ "soup coolers") were once relentlessly teased about the size of our lips. It was viewed as unattractive UNTIL certain people with that attribute became sex symbols & happened to be White. Mick Jagger, Angelina Jolie, etc. - only then were fuller lips appreciated & sought after. Same thing with big round asses & Jennifer Lopez (who of course is not White but is very well accepted & idolized by the masses) so now that's cool to have too. Again, Black people (men & women) had been made fun of in a way for this feature. Nobody went to plastic surgeons asking for Angela Bassett's ass or Janet Jackson's or any thick Latinas but now the JLo ass is a commodity & people want it. And they don't want it for WHAT IT IS & always was, they want it for WHO HAS IT - tell me that's not crazy?

So no, in my opinion White people who tan & get collagen don't hate being White. But many White people (in America, at least) do tend to adopt certain aspects of traditionally Black culture (and other cultures as well) without admitting any association to that culture b/c their desire for it only surfaced when they saw it in someone they could identify with more easily, someone who wasn't of the culture it was adopted from. The link is often ignored.

And believe it or not, there are some White people who DO hate being White (I've met some CONFUSION y'all... ). So let's spin it - let's say some White person (could be Eminem or Jessica Simpson) took a pill or got shots that darkened their skin considerably. Picture one of them being the shade Lil' Kim once was - a nice chocolate brown. If they said their reasons for doing so were just b/c "we didn't like the way we were" wouldn't you wonder why? Wouldn't you wonder what it was about dark skin that had them so enchanted they'd be willing to become unrecognizable in pursuit of it? Wouldn't you think it strange, highly questionable & miles beyond a surface/cosmetic issue? I would think they definitely didn't like certain aspects of being White, one of which certainly being skin color. That's a form of self hatred & would be just as fucking sad.

Maybe people are just looking @ the end result & seeing nothing wrong w/ it (hey, light skin - right on!) but I'm more concerned w/ the journey, the seeking outside ones self, the wound that can't be heald w/ $ or injections or any surgeons knife.

Perhaps the bottom line is that neither Lil' Kim nor MJ hate BEING Black but they clearly don't like certain aspects of being Black - the most obvious one being their skin color. Of course that's not to say that depth of pigment determines Blackness, it doesn't. I just wonder what exactly are these two trying to achieve in the quest for lighter skin?



No, it's not that the sole purpose of getting surgery is to look White - no one is saying that b/c that's ridiculous. A Black person can get a nose job or any other kind of job & I won't blink. Patti LaBelle got a nose job years ago & nobody had anything to say b/c it didn't completely alter the look of her face & it definitely didn't attempt to deny or hide her ethnicity.

But clearly SOME Black people do have the goal of trying to achieve a certain look that is less "Black" or less typical of most Black people. And why not? The thought of White beauty being THE standard has certainly warped the entire world by now so I understand how that effect can happen. It's the adoption of that ideology that's dangerous & sad. The believing of it, the celebration of it, process of embracing features that are the exact opposite of your own is no coincidence or whim - it's ultimately a rejection of who you are. What else could it be when you literally & permanently erase everything you've seen in the mirror all your life? Why would anyone want to do that? How ugly IS that reflection exactly? I mean can you honestly look @ MJ & say that his goal was NOT to identify with something clearly opposite of himself? And what's more opposite of Black than White?



Yea, the White children he purchased but that's another story Also, the act of employing a Black person has nothing to do with love for Black people or love of self. Black people get employed all the time & are still hated And as far as the dancing I'm sure he appreciates the gift of rhythm he just don't like the package it came wrapped in unfortunately...



Well he has the good sense to love his mother & the fortune of having made some great songs, still has nothing to do w/ his core image issues. Every artist wants to make good music that's cool & "Black" music has always been that.



Not so strange, I've heard it said before...



True, you definitely have to hate yourself first & foremost to do the things he's done, no doubt. He clearly hates himself. He also (imo) is not completely comfortable w/ his Blackness on the whole & clearly hates certain aspects of it, which is why he's done so much to erase the physical manifestation of it. If he loved being Black (in it's entirety, and I don't know if there's any other way) why on earth would he chisel his wide Black nose down to a fine point? Smaller is one thing, a faint reminder is quite another. And if he loves being Black so much why (as Threadbare mentioned) would he choose the lighter way to go instead of the darker way to go w/ the whole vitiligo thing (which is totally bogus anyway but you know, for the sake of argument)? And finally, WHY are people so unwilling to accept that it is indeed possible for this man to have lightened his skin on purpose? He certainly demolished his nose on purpose... do people not see that all this stuff (what MJ & Lil' Kim are doing) is really, REALLY DRASTIC?? It's beyond cosmetic, it's so much deeper than that.

I bet the next candidate for this will be a woman I saw on some HBO doc about showgirls. She was the only Black showgirl in the lineup & she spoke about how she wakes up every morning just dreading being Black (said with clenched teeth). She hates it & said if there was anything she could do to change it she would. Well apparently now there is If people don't see anything wrong w/ this kind of thing I wonder what it would be like if this melanin blocking shit was available to the masses. How many people would buy it? What would happen to all the dark Italians, Indians, Asians, Latinos, Blacks, etc. What would we think if there were tons of people rejecting what they once looked like in favor of this new, paler skin? I always thought the basis for modification was for improvement of some kind - is this an improvement? And if you think it is, what does that say about you? (generally speaking, not you specifically rainman)

ThreadBare said:

I'm in second-year genetics and I can tell you that it is an impossibility that Michael's biological children are as lily-white as that. Either they aren't his or he's dying their skin/putting makeup on them too.

Voices Carry, I'm in genetics too! I agree with you, there is no way MJ could have kids who look like that, let alone "Blanket" who MJ claims had a Black mother. How can 2 black people give birth to a blonde haired white skinned child?

In Joe Eszterhas book "Hollywood Animal" he had a short passage about how he knew Jackson's doctor and learned that MJ was indeed bleaching his skin. This isn't surprising.

Another thing that confuses me is if MJ loves being black why is it that every woman he was romantically linked with was white? To my knowledge he has never dated a black woman...

SylvesterStalloneMJ said:

then your knowledge is very small, don't debate something you dont know! and we can't know if michael have been with a black woman, and therefor we should neither discuss it. it hasn't gotta thing about the thread either!

and what does his kid had to do with this?? let the kids out! he IS their dad for them! and a very good one too! this isn't about them!


AND you don't believe he has vitiligo? I can prove it! just call ,and I shall post!

CalhounSq said:

Thank you for that, Calhoun Sq. Alot of my thoughts are in the above post. So much hatred...

WELL, SEE THIS PIC OF DONNA SUMMER....

THIS THE COVER OF HER 1991'S "MISTAKEN IDENTITY" CD

tritoncin said:

I don't think I get it Blonde hair alone is not cause for alarm




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[This message was edited Sun Apr 11 21:43:42 2004 by CalhounSq]

CalhounSq said:

well 1991, in the booklet she has color lenses too, maybe there were too many black girls trying to be whiter... I think maybe

tritoncin said:

Well the lenses make 2 strikes in my book but still, nothing like what's going on w/ the king & queen of Extreme Racial Makeover... did I just come up w/ a new show?

i'm in denial still. Are you sure those pictures weren't tampered with????

tritoncin said:

Where is Davideye when you need him?

I think the song "Mistake Identity" was supposed to be a satire or social commentary. I forget. The album didn't go anywhere and I think there was only one video, and she had black hair in it. Davideye probably knows better than I do.

INSATIABLE said:

I know. I guess I haven't seen pics or videos with her in them lately, because I had no idea she looked like this now.

tritoncin said:

I was kinda disappointed with this album cover (sorry,Vinny!)


I understand what Donna was trying to do.She was trying to make a statement about mistaken identities and how we're not always what we appear to be.The album's title track was inspired by the Rodney King beating and how the cops overreacted,thinking Rodney was more dangerous than he really was.It was an ambitious concept,but it was ill-advised and I don't think too many people "got it".Seeing Donna on the cover of an album with a blond wig and blue contacts just made them think "she's trying to look white",a perception that has dogged her throughout most of her career.

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[This message was edited Thu Apr 15 9:23:16 2004 by Cloudbuster]

the latest pic of lil kim from her court appearance...


something doesnt gel here for me...my skin tone fluxuates all over the place based on the season..ive been as dark as the first pic and as pale as the pic everyone is concerned about..


but sure damn she has had a lot of face surgery.....

DavidEye said:

I'm not a fan of the album cover (by far her worst, even compared to some of the very rough covers for those "Back Off Bugaloo" collections). I just wanted to know if I had the concept she meant for it right (it really did backfire although I think "When Love Cries" did OK on the R&B charts). Thanks David.