Something David Eye said in a Janet thread got me thinking about how great R&B music used to be. There was so much variety and sounds and singers! Man it was awesome! I am only 27 but I remember as a little kid growing up with Motown and listening to the Philly sound and my parents bumping Prince's records and loving every minute of it. As I got older I listened to the 80's R&B like Teddy, Stephanie Mills, Cherelle, Atlantic Starr, Luther,Shalomar and so many others. But now there is nothing.... No good groups, no "great" singers just a big hole where good music used to be. For me it seems the 90's killed off what was left of R&B when it tried to go street and got too explicit. For example when Jodeci stopped singing about come and talk to me and forever my lady and started singing about fucking in hotel rooms after the show that about did it for me. Other groups and singers began to change to a similar style and started singing about being nasty instead of making good music. For "me" the 90's R&B scene killed R&B.

I have tried to listen to these so called R&B singers now male and female and find most of them lacking... I just wish someone would step up and blow everyone's mind away with some material that is really good and really R&B. I guess what fustrates me the most is not just the lack or greatness but variety. Everything sounds the same all over the board in pop, rap, rock and R&B.

Sinister said:

I hear what you're saying. IMO, a group of young cats like Mint Condition for example tried to keep the tradition. Not sure how that fell apart. Maybe the "industry" told them "to go street" and it just wasn't what they wanted to do. Hell, those guys were even real musicians. Breakin' My Heart, U Send Me Swingin', So Fine, What Kind Of Man Would I Be...all good SONGS.

It's difficult to consider the bulk of what is "90's R&B" the real thing compared to the examples you gave. Real R&B was always about great SONGWRITING and a great SINGER performing it. This seems to have been pushed aside in favor of the cutey-pie lip-syncin' perp of the month. Truly a shame.

Tribal Disorder

Yup. I think it like Prince said, the "stars"( I'm not sure you can call them artists) making music. now never had to study the craft of writing songs , the craft of making music. Even the way they sing now...everybody wants to do just vocal tricks ....there's no tension and release, just a lot of acrobatics...

Back in the day producers like Quincy Jones , Kenny Gamble, Leon Huff, Thom Bell, Arif Mardin, Isaac Hayes, Skip Scarborough, Maurice White, Charles Stepney...These guys studied music, cut their teeth on Jazz, Classical, Blues, Rock, R&B...there was a history , a lineage...and they had to learn all of it. Today a producer is just someone who can put some" Phat Beats" together. I know I'm generalizing, but that's a real lack of knowledge now.

And record executives today don't really know or care about music per se. They do come from Accounting and Buisiness backgrounds, and they know how to market and make the most money they can for the record companies. and that works for them. The companies make more money than ever before, but the Music is suffering.

And the ultimate sad truth is that your average person doesn't really care about the quality of the music. a lot of people just want something to bob their head to, something with some kind of beat to dance to, or something to put on in the background while they're doing something else.

Sinister, I can understand your frustration, I used to think the same way, but I would say that these artists are keeping the R&B flame flickering . . .

Me'Shell NdegeOcello
Donnie
Jill Scott
Erykah Badu
Maxwell
Remy Shand
Res
Amel Larreiux
Les Nubians
Res
Maxwell
Musiq

Not to say all of these artists are classic artists, but each of them are more rooted in R&B and draw liberally from the classic sound. Others, like Dwele, have a strong hip-hop influence but have a great sound. Hip-hop may influence R&B just like R&B and funk influenced jazz artists, but the good artists will find a way to shine through.

namepeace said:

I agree....I do miss r&B though. Unforunately, Gerald Levert and others who keep putting out music, can't find a spot on urban radio.

namepeace said:

I have listened to a few of those artists on that list and I know there are still some talented people still making R&B but look how small that list is. Back in the day there was sooooo much more to choose from and now you can't even have a true quiet storm radio station cause there aren't that many artists making pure R&B soul anymore. I just hope we can have some kind of R&B revival or something soon....

R&B never left.

JANFAN4L said:

True. But it's not what it once was. It's just so plastic and lifeless these days. Well, to my ears at least.

Cloudbuster said:

R&B albums are not as plentiful as they were in the past, but there's still a little bit. For instance, here are some of my favorites in the last few years...

Janet Jackson - Damita Jo
Les Nubians - One Step Forward
Amel Larrieux - Bravebird
Floetry - Floetic
Meshell Ndegeocello - Cookie / Comfort Woman
Res - How I Do
Various Artists - Red Hot + Riot: The Music and Spirit of Fela Kuti (a world album, but stlll has some R&B qualities)
Ms. Dynamite - A Little Deeper
Seek - Journey Into Day
Zero 7 - When It Falls
K'Alyn - The Beauty Of...
Kelis - Tasty / Wanderland

i don't miss r&b. how could anyone? it's inescapable. what i miss about it is it being a vital genre of popular music. when it's trying, it is perhaps the most interesting genre, but so much of what gets played/bought is just cookie-cutter knock-offs of R. Kelly doing cookie-cutter knock-offs of Prince seduction ballads.


but as far as mainstream r&b goes, i have to give props to Dallas Austin for keeping it fresh (usually) and trying to evolve it while everyone else tries to keep it stagnant. it's unfortunate that even he (aside from Just A Little While) couldn't breathe life into Janet's new album.

come on guys...just think about BET in the 80's and 90's and all of the r&b acts...now name some today....


Avant, Carl Thomas, Joe, Tyrese.....where are the groups....i miss r&b.

AaronX said:

And even that songs comes at the end..maybe a little too late

paligap said:

Exactly, this generation is not putting the time in to learn instrumentation. When you practice over and over again you develop a style. That's why you had The Brother's Johnson, Cameo, LTD and the many other great groups from my generation. Everybody wants to be the new Puff Daddy.

paligap said:

So sad & SO true Our kids are fucked

CalhounSq said:

And thats what its all about what generation you come from.... For those who don't believe that R&B is just about gone are usually too young to have experienced it when it was truly good. I was lucky enough to grow up with old 60's and 70's soul and my own generation of 80's and 90's soul. For those who just know the 90's on up I wish you could have listened to the radio in the 70's and 80's and get that feeling you get when you hear good music....

I'm really tired of hearing old folks 4ever venting about oh how the music ain't really like it used to be.

Even in their time their parents were venting about the music they listened to(which is the same music that ya'll are wishing to catpure in 2day's music, ironicly) its a natural fact, ol' timers love to bitch rather than offering something to change the cause. You can't help it!

Bad music & good music exist in every era, every decade and every time. Its UP to you to look 4 it and search it but no you rather JUDGE from looking at MTV/BET only and choose to be so damn lazy about it.

You maybe looking but I say you're not looking hard enough!

Sinister said:

Harlepolis said:

Old folks?
Do I resemble that remark?

I think what many of us are expressing may have a great deal to do with the R&B machinery (specific labels and corresponding infrastructure) that was in place at the time. This gave the music a definite focus, consistency and sound that was simultaneously unique to each of the labels. You had Motown, Stax/Volt, Atlantic, Bell, Gordy, Tamla, Philly Intl., Atco, Brunswick, Soul, among others, that specifically catered to classic R&B music.

Yes today you can hunt it down, but back in the day (and I know you know what i'm talkin' about...don't be "fra-in" girl. You remember Frankie Crocker?) before all the radio stations were owned by 2 or 3 conglomerates, you could turn on WWRL or WLIB and knew you were gonna get some pure uncut R&B.

News Flash: WLIB has just been taken over by the new liberal talk network Air America.
Another one bites the dust.

Old folks?

Tribal Disorder
[This message was edited Mon Apr 5 2:04:56 2004 by theAudience]

Harlepolis said:

So how old are you then?

paligap said:

i'm really starting to think that music video has killed music.....image is more important than the music.

I agree and then I don't. What I mean is R&B today isn't as rich and diverse as it was in the 70's and early 80's. On the other hand, things are much better now than they were during most of the 90's. Other than a few bands like Mint and the Heavies and cats like Rashaan Pattersen and Maxwell, you had very few real R&B or soul acts. You find much more "warm" or "retro" sounding R&B today. It might be someonewhat underground but it's out there.

Harlepolis said:

But that's part of the problem - I'm guessing most youngin's don't bother to go back & dig for the good stuff. They simply don't question the quality of what they're hearing these days & don't care to look into the past. I understand your frustration w/ the generalization of young people BUT my feeling is you're not the average young listener

Harlepolis said:

I concede that there is SOME great stuff in R&B right now....Maxwell is great,Remy Shand showed alot of promise on his debut CD,and one day Amel Larrieux is gonna get the attention and success she deserves (her new CD is excellent!).But sweetie,don't kid yourself,there is ALOT of crap out there.Back in the day,you could sit and listen to the radio all day long,hearing one hot jam after another.These days,most of us from the "Old School" don't even listen to the radio anymore! Anyone who grew up back then (the 60s,the 70s,) can tell you that today's music just doesn't compare.Real musicianship is lost.Funk bands have basically become extinct.Horns and violins have been replaced by hip-hop beats and samples.Breathtaking,classic concept albums like 'What's Going On' have been replaced by meaningless garbage like 'The Chocolate Factory'.Amazing producers and songwriters like Gamble and Huff,Ashford and Simpson and Curtis Mayfield have been replaced by the likes of P.Diddy,Kanye West and The Neptunes.Now you tell me....what's wrong with this picture?

video killed the radio star

Sinister said:

I feel you. IMO, Jodeci was probably the last promising group that possessed true R&B; however, DeVante got a little wild with his songwriting and holding other great artists (Missy Elliott, Tweet) "hostage." He was a real musician and K-Ci and JoJo had voices that were not like anyone else around that time.

I, too, miss good R&B music. But with the saturation of today's hip-hop/soul collaborations, you can't turn on the radio without hearing somone singing a song and the bridge goes to a rapper yelling at yo' ass. Maybe one day, one day, we'll get back to those days. But like Prince says...

"Wish I had a dollar for every time you say
Don't you miss the feeling music gave you back in the day?"

DavidEye said:

[b]Hey you forgot about Tom Jones

DavidEye said:

Kidding myself about WHAT exactly? Once again you're pulling a "comparision", I don't disagree with you here but you're missing the whole point.

This "Old BETTER than new" saga will 4ever continue till the judgment day. Swing & bep-bop era betta than funk & soul era, funk & soul era betta than Hip-hop & new jack swing era, hip-hop & new jack swing era betta than THIS era, THIS ERA betta than the next era and on & on till the break of dawn,,,,this is NOT something new!

My WHOLE rambling in a simple sentence is "Look 4 the positive in 2day's new music rather than focusing on the negative and quit bitching about it cuz you're crying WON'T change the damages unless if you're contributing something to change a lil', just a lil' difference. Simple & plain"

Do I resent how the music industry turned out 2 be? Hell yeah but least I'm looking 4 the "young good guys" who're actualy doing something. And they're around actualy but not as vocal as they should be.

Thats what I'm trying to say, basically!

Hey Sinister these are the bands and singers I miss. Shalamar,Lakeside,Parliament,Barkays,The Whispers, The O'Jays, Eearth wind and Fire,The Time, RIck James,Teena Marie(Have u heard u new single)STILL IN LOVE. These are the people I miss the most. CHAKA AND PATTI TOO