Proof that Bob Dylan could NEVER be "OVERRATED"

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Proof that Bob Dylan could NEVER be "OVERRATED"

The impetus for this thread was, IMHO a rather reckless statement made in the "Overrated Artists" thread claiming that Bob Dylan (along with Stevie Wonder!) was overrated. My initial thought was disbelief and to just let it ride (afterall it's just a comment on a message board). But being a musician and a part of the '60s and knowing the historical relevance that so many of the songs he'd written had, this statement continued to disturb me. At the very least, I thought, a detailed response might be valuable to some that were not familiar with Dylan's body of work. Then again they just might think "Here's some blowhard that needs to just STFU.". I decided that I couldn't care less and to do it anyway.

I want to thank that poster who made the statement because this research allowed me to revisit some great material, revisit fond memories from my past and become reunited with some fine examples of lyric writing.

These are just a few examples from his first 10 albums in chronological order.

His 1st album (Bob Dylan - 1962) contained only 2 original songs. One of which could be considered an ode to any struggling musician/performer.

Talking New York
Ramblin' outa the wild West,
Leavin' the towns I love the best.
Thought I'd seen some ups and down,
"Til I come into New York town.
People goin' down to the ground,
Buildings goin' up to the sky.

Wintertime in New York town,
The wind blowin' snow around.
Walk around with nowhere to go,
Somebody could freeze right to the bone.
I froze right to the bone.
New York Times said it was the coldest winter in seventeen years;
I didn't feel so cold then.

I swung on to my old guitar,
Grabbed hold of a subway car,
And after a rocking, reeling, rolling ride,
I landed up on the downtown side;
Greenwich Village.

I walked down there and ended up
In one of them coffee-houses on the block.
Got on the stage to sing and play,
Man there said, "Come back some other day,
You sound like a hillbilly;
We want folk singer here."

Well, I got a harmonica job, begun to play,
Blowin' my lungs out for a dollar a day.
I blowed inside out and upside down.
The man there said he loved m' sound,
He was ravin' about how he loved m' sound;
Dollar a day's worth.

And after weeks and weeks of hangin' around,
I finally got a job in New York town,
In a bigger place, bigger money too,
Even joined the union and paid m' dues.

Now, a very great man once said
That some people rob you with a fountain pen.
It didn't take too long to find out
Just what he was talkin' about.
A lot of people don't have much food on their table,
But they got a lot of forks n' knives,
And they gotta cut somethin'.

So one mornin' when the sun was warm,
I rambled out of New York town.
Pulled my cap down over my eyes
And headed out for the western skies.
So long, New York.
Howdy, East Orange.

His 2nd album yielded this anthem:

Blowin' in the Wind
(from The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan - 1963)
How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
Yes, 'n' how many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, 'n' how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

How many years can a mountain exist
Before it's washed to the sea?
Yes, 'n' how many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
Yes, 'n' how many times can a man turn his head,
Pretending he just doesn't see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

The Times They Are A-Changin' - 1964
The Times They Are A-Changin' - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...times.html

Another Side of Bob Dylan - 1964
All I Really Want to Do - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...eally.html
My Back Pages - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...pages.html
It Ain't Me, Babe - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...intme.html

Bringing It All Back Home - 1965
Subterranean Homesick Blues - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...anean.html
She Belongs to Me - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...longs.html
Mr. Tambourine Man - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...urine.html
Maggie's Farm - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...aggie.html

Highway 61 Revisited - 1965
Like a Rolling Stone - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...lling.html
Ballad of a Thin Man - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...inman.html
Highway 61 Revisited - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...way61.html
Desolation Row - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...ation.html

Blonde on Blonde - 1966
Rainy Day Women #12 & 35 - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...rainy.html
I Want You - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...ntyou.html
Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...mphis.html
Just Like a Woman - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...tlike.html

Bob Dylan's Greatest Hits - 1967

Positively 4th Street
You got a lotta nerve
To say you are my friend
When I was down
You just stood there grinning

You got a lotta nerve
To say you got a helping hand to lend
You just want to be on
The side that's winning

You say I let you down
You know it's not like that
If you're so hurt
Why then don't you show it

You say you lost your faith
But that's not where it's at
You had no faith to lose
And you know it

I know the reason
That you talk behind my back
I used to be among the crowd
You're in with

Do you take me for such a fool
To think I'd make contact
With the one who tries to hide
What he don't know to begin with

You see me on the street
You always act surprised
You say, "How are you?" "Good luck"
But you don't mean it

When you know as well as me
You'd rather see me paralyzed
Why don't you just come out once
And scream it

No, I do not feel that good
When I see the heartbreaks you embrace
If I was a master thief
Perhaps I'd rob them

And now I know you're dissatisfied
With your position and your place
Don't you understand
It's not my problem

I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
And just for that one moment
I could be you

Yes, I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
You'd know what a drag it is
To see you

John Wesley Harding - 1967
All Along the Watchtower - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...tower.html
The Ballad of Frankie Lee and Judas Priest - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...ielee.html

Nashville Skyline - 1969
Girl of the North Country - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...north.html
I Threw It All Away - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...threw.html
Lay, Lady, Lay - http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/lay.html
Tonight I'll Be Staying Here With You - http://www.bobdylan.com/s...night.html

What you see above is 10 albums of outrageously well written songs from just the 1st third of Dylan's recorded output. At LEAST 15 of these tunes can assuredly be considered classics. One characteristic of a great song is that the lyrics can stand on their own without any music. The above examples all fall into that category.

Overrated?
I challenge you to show me another artist (rock category) with the lyric quality of Dylan's body of work that has over a 40 year career in the music business.

Visit http://www.bobdylan.com for samples and further examples.

Thanks again for the journey. peace

[This message was edited Sat Mar 13 12:52:56 2004 by theAudience]

"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all."

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Reply #1 posted 03/13/04 12:47pm

JonSnow

good post. Dylan is the greatest song writer in rock history - by a wide margin. He's a lyricist with no equal.

Some don't get his voice (like my roommate). But even he admits that Dylan writes incredible songs.

I have a soft spot for "Oh Mercy". It probably isn't his best album, but it's my favorite for a lot of different reasons.

Individual tracks... i really love "Sweetheart Like You" from Infedels. I don't think it gets the attention it deserves, it's truly amazing. I also love "Blind Willie McTell" from that some time period.

And of course classic Dylan... Blood on the Tracks. Blonde on Blonde. Highway 61 Revisited. Defining moments in rock history.

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Reply #2 posted 03/13/04 12:56pm

I'm sorry, I just don't "get" Dylan (lyrically or voice-wise). I do, however, respect his body of work and appreciate some of his lyrics, although I don't think too many of them are earth-shatteringly profound or important. Personally, I've derived much more from the lyrics of Fleetwood Mac, The Beatles, Annie Lennox and Tracy Chapman. But there is no such thing as "proof" that an artist is good or not. The proof lies in your personal opinion. And that's all that matters, isn't it?
[This message was edited Sat Mar 13 13:00:18 2004 by VoicesCarry]

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Reply #3 posted 03/13/04 1:01pm

JonSnow

VoicesCarry said:

I'm sorry, I just don't "get" Dylan (lyrically or voice-wise). I do, however, respect his body of work and appreciate some of his lyrics, although I don't think too many of them are earth-shatteringly profound or important. But there is no such thing as "proof" that an artist is good or not. The proof lies in your personal opinion. And that's all that matters, isn't it?
[This message was edited Sat Mar 13 12:57:49 2004 by VoicesCarry]

I hear what you're saying about personal opinion, but I disagree. I think there is a distinction between "liking" someone and "proof" that an artist is good.

My feeling is that Dylan is universally recognized throughout the music industry as a legend, and perhaps the most influential songwriter in rock history. If professional songwriters all point to Dylan as the daddy of them all, then that's good enough proof for me.

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Reply #4 posted 03/13/04 1:07pm

JonSnow said:

VoicesCarry said:

I'm sorry, I just don't "get" Dylan (lyrically or voice-wise). I do, however, respect his body of work and appreciate some of his lyrics, although I don't think too many of them are earth-shatteringly profound or important. But there is no such thing as "proof" that an artist is good or not. The proof lies in your personal opinion. And that's all that matters, isn't it?
[This message was edited Sat Mar 13 12:57:49 2004 by VoicesCarry]

I see your point, but appraisals of worth are ALL based on personal opinion (even those of the songwriters tipping their hats to Dylan...whether they do that out of virtual necessity or good-hearted honesty I don't know). I can respect him (and understand why people would love him) , but no amount of "evidence" will convince myelf that his music is particularly good unless I enjoy it.

Just because he's recognized as a legend doesn't mean he's a legend to everyone wink

[This message was edited Sat Mar 13 13:09:25 2004 by VoicesCarry]

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Reply #5 posted 03/13/04 1:12pm

JonSnow

VoicesCarry said:

JonSnow said:

I see your point, but appraisals of worth are ALL based on personal opinion (even those of the songwriters tipping their hats to Dylan...whether they do that out of virtual necessity or good-hearted honesty I don't know). I can respect him (and understand why people would love him) , but no amount of "evidence" will convince myelf that his music is particularly good unless I enjoy it.
[This message was edited Sat Mar 13 13:08:43 2004 by VoicesCarry]

that's an interesting point, about appraisals of worth and personal opinion. you can say the same about music critics and movie critics, etc..

My feeling is that music and songwriting are a craft, and those who are involved in that craft can tell generally whether or not something is good.

Just like any other profession... experts and specialists can make educated judgments based on their knowledge of the craft, industry, etc.....

But you're right, i guess it all comes down to what you enjoy. I can enjoy both Britney (in small doses) and Dylan. Each for what they're worth. Just like I can enjoy a stupid, fun movie like Dude, Where's My Car? and also something amazing like Lord of the Rings.

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Reply #6 posted 03/13/04 1:18pm

JonSnow said:

VoicesCarry said:

I see your point, but appraisals of worth are ALL based on personal opinion (even those of the songwriters tipping their hats to Dylan...whether they do that out of virtual necessity or good-hearted honesty I don't know). I can respect him (and understand why people would love him) , but no amount of "evidence" will convince myelf that his music is particularly good unless I enjoy it.
[This message was edited Sat Mar 13 13:08:43 2004 by VoicesCarry]

Yeah, thats the age-old argument that directors use against film critics: how can you criticize something unless you're a peer who's personally involved in the work? I think they do have a point, but considering that this art is for public consumption there will be detractors, and there must be for the purpose of debate and perspective (just as there always crictics who express their dislike for movies that are universally accepted as 'great'). The public obviously made their judgement about Dylan in his heyday, although it doesn't appear that his work is truly catching on with new generations, me included. Who knows, perhaps you simply need more experience in life to truly appreciate Dylan? Perhaps....tastes change.
[This message was edited Sat Mar 13 13:21:07 2004 by VoicesCarry]

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Reply #7 posted 03/13/04 2:34pm

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VoicesCarry said:

OK but it could be argued that Dylan was responsible for artists such as "...Fleetwood Mac, The Beatles, Annie Lennox and Tracy Chapman." writing the type of lyrics that have appealed to you. Just think of what the subject matter of most pop lyrics were prior to Dylan coming onto the scene.

It's pretty safe to say that the artists you've mentioned have all been influenced by the Beatles.
Who were the Beatles influenced by?

May 24, 2001 - abcnews.go.com
(http://abcnews.go.com/sections/entertainment/dailynews/dylan010524.html)
As for Dylan's influence on pop culture, it will always be there. Anyone who has ever written a song that could easily be read as a poem has been influenced by Dylan. How's this — everyone who came after the Beatles has been, in some way, influenced by them.

Well, who influenced The Beatles? Bob Dylan.

John Lennon, especially, was bitten by the Dylan bug. In early 1965, the second track on the Beatles '65 album, "I'm A Loser," is a Dylan knockoff all the way, and Lennon freely admitted it. If Bob Dylan accomplished nothing else, he proved that rock 'n' roll could have a brain and be literate.

It's not about his singing voice my friend. If vocal quality was the criteria we'd have to erase the careers of the majority of male c&w icons like Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, etc. The focus here is the songs themselves.

Yes, personal opinion is the bottom line in whether you will even listen to a particular artist good or bad. But in my opinion, there is no doubt that Dylan, almost single handedly (followed by the Beatles for whom Dylan was a major influence), broadened the lyric writing style of pop music. And I also believe that history bears this out.

Can you name a song by Fleetwood Mac, Tracy Chapman or Annie Lennox (for the sake of argument, even throw in the Beatles) that was adopted as the soundtrack for major turning points in U.S. history as "Blowin' in the Wind" or "The Times They are A-Changin'" were for the Civil Rights movement and the Viet Nam war?

Good discussion.

"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all."

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Reply #8 posted 03/13/04 2:45pm

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JonSnow said:

Thanks for understanding. I just had to get this off my chest.

I only covered material from the beginning of his career because the post would have been much longer than it already is. Also i'm more familiar with this particular period.

Checking some of the lyrics from the Oh Mercy album you mentioned, these verses stood out from "Political World":

We live in a political world,
Wisdom is thrown into jail,
It rots in a cell, is misguided as hell
Leaving no one to pick up a trail.

and

We live in a political world
Turning and a'thrashing about,
As soon as you're awake, you're trained to take
What looks like the easy way out.

Thanks for the tip. peace

"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all."

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Reply #9 posted 03/13/04 2:50pm

theAudience said:

VoicesCarry said:

Oh, lol, I never denied Dylan's profound influence! He definitely defined what singer-songwriter "meant" in the 1960s and 70s. But I think you are somewhat overemphasizing his influence here. Dylan was NOT the sole soundtrack of the Civil Rights movement. I can name many songs (both popular and criminally ignored) that were just as good as Dylan's (if not better and more pertinent to the Civil Rights movement):

Strange Fruit - Billie Holiday
Mississippi Goddamn - Nina Simone (+ a lot of her 60s material)
If You Miss Me From The Back Of The Bus - Harry Belafonte
A Change Is Gonna Come - Sam Cooke, Solomon Burke, Otis Redding
For God's Sake Give More Power To The People - The Chi Lites
ANY civil rights song by Sly & The Family Stone
Dancing In The Street - Martha Reeves & The Vandellas
Message From A Black Man - Don Julian
Abraham, Martin & John - Marvin Gaye
Choice Of Colours - The Impressions
We the People Who Are Darker Than Blue - Curtis Mayfield
People Get Ready - Curtis Mayfield

And of course, "We Shall Overcome", the most famous and fabled protest song in American history.

The list goes on and on and on....

Many of these songs were penned before Dylan's breakout, and as such I think it's reasonable to say that songwriters writing introspective lyrics was nothing new at the time - Dylan managed to popularize it, though.

Folk music did play a big part, yes, but there were artists besides Dylan (who I don't believe "owed" anything to him) such as Joan Baez (she of course worked alongside Dylan), Woody Guthrie and Janis Ian who were trumpeting the same message IMHO equally well.

And as for Vietnam, I have one that I will always cherish above any of Dylan's contributions, which is Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On".

I only commented originally on the title and purpose of this thread, which was to "prove" that Dylan could never be "overrated". I do believe that someone can say he's overrated, which is just a reflection of personal taste (as in: do you have trouble understanding why someone else likes him so much? If so, then you'd consider him overrated). Proof that he was highly influential is something entirely different. You can prove that. He opened the door for many artists and managed to popularize a songwriting style that had struggled previously. That he INVENTED the style, that might be a little harder to prove. It's interesting to note that "My Girl" (among other songs) led Dylan to call Smokey Robinson "America's greatest living poet" in the mid-60s.

Tracy Chapman's "Talkin' Bout A Revolution" is highly Dylan-influenced, and it's my favourite song by her. But it's also influenced quite a bit by artists like Nina Simone.
[This message was edited Sat Mar 13 15:22:32 2004 by VoicesCarry]

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Reply #10 posted 03/13/04 5:12pm

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VoicesCarry said:

theAudience said:

Excellent points.

I never said that he was "the sole soundtrack of the Civil Rights movement" nor did I say that he "INVENTED" anything. The "soundtrack" statement was based on the fact that at many of the major protest marches that was the song you heard along with "We Shall Overcome". Although you've given GREAT examples of songs that are without a doubt representative of that political period, those were not the songs you heard at these marches and demonstrations. At The March on Washington in 1963 (I was there), Bob Dylan performed "Only a Pawn in their Game", Peter, Paul and Mary performed "Blowin' in the Wind" *(#2 on the charts at the time. What was #1?) while Joan Baez performed "We Shall Overcome".

Here's where we may have our main difference. The impression you get when you hear the term "overrated"
You've described it as "a reflection of personal taste". When I hear the term "overrated" my impression is that it's being used to compare someone/something to someone/something else who is more/less deserving of accolades/attention/awards etc. given an agreed upon set of standards. If that's where we're parting ways, then it's understandable.

It could be that the "Overrated Artists" thread gave no parameters for anyone's choices is what set me off. ("Overrated Artists compared to...")
Could be that I just took the "Overrated Artists" thread too seriously. I don't doubt it.

My whole point here was to establish that Bob Dylan was not some johnny-come-lately artist and to provide a bit of historical perspective relative to his long career (an accomplishment in itself) as a songwriter for those that may not be familiar with his history. This was based on the fact that the poster who made the original comment is approx half my age.

On a lighter note, you mentioned you didn't get Dylan "voice-wise". From the standpoint of technical singing, I get that. I feel the same way about Stevie Nick's voice. Her machine gun like vibrato gives me the willies.

Btw, add "We're a Winner" by the Impressions to your "criminally ignored" list and "War" by Edwin Starr to the "popular" side.

*Trivia answer: Martha & the Vandellas - Heat Wave

Thanks for the conversation. peace

"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all."

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