i've listened to quite a bit of Santana's stuff and I really think the guy gets more credit than he deserves.
His "greatest hits" like "Oy Como Va" and "Black Magic Woman" are tepid considering they are held up to be classics.
The period where he was pretty much ripping off Miles Davis' "Bitches Brew" (like "Lotus") seems to me to be his most intersting, and that's saying a lot here.

"Supernatural" and "Shaman" while they have decent tunes on them, his playing is crap on most of them that I've heard, and it seems like he's relying on the star power of the featured artists to get him over.

I really think Carlos is way overrated. What am I missing?

guitarslinger44 said:

And they're cover versions...


Now, what ever gave you that idea?

guitarslinger44 said:

accou

you just figger this out or your account just get re-activated?

guitarslinger44 said:

Carlos is not overrated.He is one of the greatest guitarists of all-time (just ask B.B. King,Eric Clapton or Prince himself) and he deserves all the recognition that comes his way.In the late 60s-early 70s,he took Latin-rock to a whole new level.He plays guitar with a passion and intensity that is just mindblowing.Did you know that Jimi Hendrix was so impressed with Carlos' playing that he actually wanted to join the Santana Band? If Jimi had lived,I'm sure that these two would have collaborated in the 70s and it would have been explosive.

I'm not sure exactly what Santana albums you have,but he has his share of inspired,eclectic albums in which he plays many styles.Forget 'Supernatural' and 'Shaman'.You really need to check out 'Caravanserai'(1972---the bold album that his record label feared would divide his audience),'Welcome'(1973),'Borboletta'(1974),'Illuminations'(1974),'Festival'(1976),'Moonflower'(1977),'Oneness-Silver Dreams,Golden Reality'(1979),'The Swing Of Delight'(1980),'Zebop'(1981),'Blues For Salvador'(1988),'Milagro'(1992), and 'Brothers'(1994).His 1993 album 'Sacred Fire' is the most vibrant guitar-based live album ever.


While his recent albums can't compete with his earlier works,it's still a good thing that he is enjoying some mainstream success these days.His new,younger fans are now exploring his old albums and they're coming out to his concerts in droves.They're discovering what many of us have known for decades...Carlos Santana is the real deal.
[This message was edited Thu Jan 29 7:07:54 PST 2004 by DavidEye]

I agree with David for the most part.Not all of his albums are great ,but the same could be said about any artist with a 30+ year career.

Carlos is not overrated.He is one of the greatest guitarists of all-time (just ask B.B. King,Eric Clapton or Prince himself) and he deserves all the recognition that comes his way.In the late 60s-early 70s,he took Latin-rock to a whole new level.He plays guitar with a passion and intensity that is just mindblowing.Did you know that Jimi Hendrix was so impressed with Carlos' playing that he actually wanted to join the Santana Band? If Jimi had lived,I'm sure that these two would have collaborated in the 70s and it would have been explosive.

I'm not sure exactly what Santana albums you have,but he has his share of inspired,eclectic albums in which he plays many styles.Forget 'Supernatural' and 'Shaman'.You really need to check out 'Caravanserai'(1972---the bold album that his record label feared would divide his audience),'Welcome'(1973),'Borboletta'(1974),'Illuminations'(1974),'Festival'(1976),'Moonflower'(1977),'Oneness-Silver Dreams,Golden Reality'(1979),'The Swing Of Delight'(1980),'Zebop'(1981),'Blues For Salvador'(1988),'Milagro'(1992), and 'Brothers'(1994).His 1993 album 'Sacred Fire' is the most vibrant guitar-based live album ever.


While his recent albums can't compete with his earlier works,it's still a good thing that he is enjoying some mainstream success these days.His new,younger fans are now exploring his old albums and they're coming out to his concerts in droves.They're discovering what many of us have known for decades...Carlos Santana is the real deal.
[This message was edited Thu Jan 29 7:07:54 PST 2004 by DavidEye]
[/quote]

Not only did he have the respect of B.B. King,Jimi, Eric Clapton, and Prince. But Tito Puente, Miles Davis AND Charles Mingus. Mingus and Miles were both two of the most critical musicians around, and they dug him. You definitely need to check his earlier albums. Even the ones that I don't care for in their entirety, have one or two gems that really shine. Songs like Bella, Blues for Salvador, Europa, Samba Pa Ti, Jingo, Aqua Marine for example display some of the most emotional guitar playing ever heard in my opinion. Even Prince admits that his style is very much inspired by Santana. Its the emotion. No vocals necessary, you get what Santana is trying to say just through the notes that he plays. Chepito Areas, one of the finest Cuban percussionists was also the musical director for Carlos' band. No way, he would have joined with them if he didn't know his shit. All those styles blended into great music, San Francisco psychedelia meets Cuba.

Also ,his guitar playing is very distinctive.Whenever they started playing the otherwise annoying "The Game Of Love"
on the radio,I knew it was Santana a few seconds in,before the EVIL BRANCH CHICK opened her mouth.I remember thinking "Hopefully ,they will release an instrumental version"



...more fool me...

I own a couple Santana CDs, but I always thought he was a little overrated, too. I deeply apreciate his cross-cultural pioneering and he seems like a wonderfully insightful visionary, but his music just never has touched me.

I know only a limited bit about him, though; I'll have to take the advise of some posters here and do some research and re-listening.

Carlos is EXTREMELY over rated. His style hasn't changed in 30 something years. How about a little evolution?

DavidEye, thank you.

It trips me out how folks will fawn over how much *feeling* Prince can squeeze out of his guitar solos, but Carlos' playing can be dismissed as "overrated." For some, I wonder whether you're disappointed that "Rave" was no "Supernatural" for Prince, in terms of success.

Is Carlos' playing at times repetitious or predictable? Yes. He's not perfect by a longshot. But, name me another guitarist with his talent, longevity, influence (even ol' boy P worships him some Carlos) and heart.

Carlos is all about helping people and touching them through his music. When Paul Reed Smith, the Maryland guitar-maker whose products Santana has played for years, wanted to issue a Santana line, Carlos made the company make a low-cost model for folks who wanted the sound but didn't necessarily have a ton of money. There's more than one line, for that reason. How many other guitar legends (as CS really is) would fight for that in this day and age?

Go to his (pleasant, informative) web site, and you'll see pages devoted to understanding how he gets his tone (equipment and settings), as well as transcriptions of his songs.

Again, I encourage you to provide me with a similar artist with comparable talent, longevity, influence and heart. They're probably overrated, too, right?
[This message was edited Thu Jan 29 22:47:40 PST 2004 by ThreadBare]

garnis said:

Evolution? Have you even listened to his amazing catalog? Since the late 60s,he has been playing Latin rock,Afro-Cuban styles,jazz-fusion,funk,Mexican music styles,salsa,hard rock,R&B,pop,blues and even hip-hop.He even incorporates gospel in a few songs ("Let It Shine"(1976),"Spirits Dancing In The Flesh"(1990).This guy has ENTIRE albums devoted to specific types of music styles (such as his 1973 duet album with John McLaughlin 'Love Devotion Surrender' or his 1974 album with Alice Coltrane 'Illumunations').In fact,I honestly can't name many styles that he hasn't done.


If that's not "evolution",I don't know what is!
[This message was edited Fri Jan 30 1:10:07 PST 2004 by DavidEye]

All of you that claim that Carlos is over-rated should bite your fucking tongues! The man is a guitar god! He ranks right up there in the top 20 IMO! Not only is he an amazing guitarist, he's also a great human being. He's very spiritual and giving of his time and money. Davideye has taken the time to lay it all out for you. Read what he says and take heed!

The thing is Santana has a style that is his own. The band may change but Carlos' sound is unique and shows through.

Live at the filmore in '68 is one of my fav's and was the first time Rock/blues and keyboards shared the stage as rock instruments.

While your perspective may be that he's overrated, you can't say he hasn't been an influence on popular music.

DavidEye said:

DavidEye said:

plain and simple. if there were no carlos santana, there would be no prince.

P has taken as much from carlos as from james brown and joni.

P is tapestry of sorts and the santana factor is a HUGE part of that.

it's always interesting to me that people make comments like these about santana and larry graham.

P thinks enough about these guys to make it known that these are his inspirations

everybody here is so concerned with riding P's dick that they can't see the truth

pimpdoutt said:

You know, this is great! This didn't turn into a "Fuck you!" "no Fuck YOU!" thread. Thanks guys! This has renewed my faith in the Org!

I admire Carlos' spirit as a human being and can admit that he's had a lasting effect on pop music, but I don't feel his music that way. I see people hold him up as a god and I really just dont' see it. I like his tone but it's more WHAT he plays that I don't like. I agree his tone sings and I can definitely hear that in Prince's music sometimes.

As far as his recent albums go, I think people would buy the albums even if he weren't on them. I dont' think very many of the people buy the records because of Carlos, they buy them becaue Rob Thomas or Michelle Branch are singing on them. The guitarist could be anyone in my book. And someone brought up "The Game Of Love" which I think is an example of one of Carlos' less inspired moments. But to each his own I guess.

ThreadBare said:

Good description of his site...pleasant and informative. Now why can't Prince do something like that? I know, I know, not trying to start a debate, Prince or NPGMC bashing, but I would love to read all the info about Prince that there is about Carlos on the web like that, and if I wanted to join for the perks...then I could.

ahhh...wishful thinking.

Agree with guitarslinger...nice thread. Great information DavidEye

Over rated. End of discussion.

beautifulone7 said:

If you ever need any other info or recommendations,just Orgnote me.Santana is one of my favorite artists.

Everybody and nobody is underrated and overrated.

That covers it.

DavidEye said:

His phrasing is excellent and unique but it do is repetitive just because he played latins solos over funk beats it does not means he played funk. He does nto play jazz fusion, nor r&b. He is not a versatile player. But I think he is a genious, just like hendrix. he has lots of feeling, but he is not versatile, and he did not evolved very much.

Overrated,I dont think thats the correct term to use.Is he a brilliant musician,yes he is.Even though I dont like all his stuff I can still see how good he is.But,there are others that dont get 1/25 the praise he receives that are better.Alex Lifeson is a perfect example.He's right up there with all these guys and half the peeps here probably dont even no who he is.How about all the praise Jimmy Paige and Jeff Buckley receive.Dont believe the hype.Its just an opinion anyway,Everyone see's things different and thats that.

7salles said:

Carlos HAS evolved and he can play pretty much any style.Blues,rock,jazz,you name it.In 1988,he formed a band with Miles Davis,Wayne Shorter and Patrice Rushen.They never got the chance to do a full-fledged tour,but Carlos is planning to someday release the stuff they recorded.It's considered to be a straight jazz project.

You many not think he is "versatile" but I would argue otherwise.

Forget what instrument he plays. It's all in the tone. A female voice, screaming at times, plaintive at others. Beautiful fire.

It's like Miles. The background sound was forever changing, but he was always the same. Himself. The core.

The man got soul.

Miles said:

like Lauryn Hill once said,"Carlos plays guitar the way a soul singer sings".

I listened to the first disc of "Moonflower" on the way to work last night and I'm still at the same place. I like his tone and his phrasing and some of the background stuff, but...maybe it's cause I'm spoiled by all the Miles Davis stuff I've listened to. I guess I kinda feel like there should be more to Santana's stuff considering how much praise gets heaped on him. Not that it should be more complex or anything but just...I dont' know how to say it...MORE!