VoicesCarry said:

VoicesCarry,I like you alot and we usually agree,but this time,I have to say you are totally wrong.I don't know where you're getting your information from,but I can tell you that Madonna has absolutely NO plans to retire anytime soon.She still has at least two more albums left on her Warners contract and there is a rumor that she is (privately) entertaining other offers from other companies.So you can bet that there will be alot more Madonna music.She still has alot more to say.

You think that "Madge is nearing the end of her reign"? Funny, that's exactly what people were saying in 1993 after the whole Sex/Erotica/Body Of Evidence phase.But of course she went on to do her greatest movie ('Evita') and her best album ('Ray Of Light').As she has proved many,many,many times in the past,she can NEVER be counted out,and she always bounces back from perceived failures (not that 'American Life' is a total failure,mind you.The total worldwide sales are around 5 million and two singles went Top 40.Most longtime artists would love to "fail" like that).


You criticize her for pulling the controversial "American Life" video.But let's be honest here,would the video channels have REALLY shown it,with a bloody,full-fledged war going on? If she hadn't pulled it herself,it would have been banned regardless.In fact,there is a rumor that MTV had major doubts about airing it BEFORE she even made the announcement to pull it.Madonna is a controversial,provocative artist who always seems to have an "extreme point of view" on every topic (one of the reasons we love her so much...lol)but even she must show a little restraint sometimes,especially when it involves human lives getting killed.She has explained that the video would have been hurtful and insensitive to the families with loved ones fighting in the war."I didn't want to rub salt in their wounds",she said.I think she has a valid point.Yes,pulling the video basically killed the commercial success of the song and I realize that some fans think she "wimped out" and is "losing her touch"(as you put it),but there are much more important things in life than being controversial,or selling records.


"No matter how you cut it,she'll never be what she was,since a 50-year old woman just doesn't appeal to the youth crowd".

But why should she HAVE to appeal to the youth crowd? Her fans have grown up with her! I've been a fan of hers since the 80s,I am 34 years old,and I would rather that she cater her music to my age group anyway...lol...her last three CDs contain mature,powerful,introspective songs that are clearly meant for older audiences.There's no more teeny-bopper bubblegum stuff on her albums nor should there be.I get so sick of people bringing up her age and acting as if it's a reason she should just give up her career.Would you suggest that Prince retire as well? How about Carlos Santana? Stevie Nicks perhaps? How about Sade? Sting? I want her to keep doing the music that SHE wants to make,and let it appeal to whomever "gets it".

If you really believe that Madonna is "tarnishing her legacy" by refusing to retire,then perhaps you should just enjoy her old albums and marvel at the person she used to be.The rest of us are in it for the long haul


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[This message was edited Fri Dec 19 4:21:06 PST 2003 by DavidEye]

VoicesCarry said:

VoicesCarry,I like you alot and we usually agree,but this time,I have to say you are totally wrong.I don't know where you're getting your information from,but I can tell you that Madonna has absolutely NO plans to retire anytime soon.She still has at least two more albums left on her Warners contract and there is a rumor that she is (privately) entertaining other offers from other companies.So you can bet that there will be alot more Madonna music.She still has alot more to say.

You think that "Madge is nearing the end of her reign"? Funny, that's exactly what people were saying in 1993 after the whole Sex/Erotica/Body Of Evidence phase.But of course she went on to do her greatest movie ('Evita') and her best album ('Ray Of Light').As she has proved many,many,many times in the past,she can NEVER be counted out,and she always bounces back from perceived failures (not that 'American Life' is a total failure,mind you.The total worldwide sales are around 5 million and two singles went Top 40.Most longtime artists would love to "fail" like that).


You criticize her for pulling the controversial "American Life" video.But let's be honest here,would the video channels have REALLY shown it,with a bloody,full-fledged war going on? If she hadn't pulled it herself,it would have been banned regardless.In fact,there is a rumor that MTV had major doubts about airing it BEFORE she even made the announcement to pull it.Madonna is a controversial,provocative artist who always seems to have an "extreme point of view" on every topic (one of the reasons we love her so much...lol)but even she must show a little restraint sometimes,especially when it involves human lives getting killed.She has explained that the video would have been hurtful and insensitive to the families with loved ones fighting in the war."I didn't want to rub salt in their wounds",she said.I think she has a valid point.Yes,pulling the video basically killed the commercial success of the song and I realize that some fans think she "wimped out" and is "losing her touch"(as you put it),but there are much more important things in life than being controversial,or selling records.


"No matter how you cut it,she'll never be what she was,since a 50-year old woman just doesn't appeal to the youth crowd".

But why should she HAVE to appeal to the youth crowd? Her fans have grown up with her! I've been a fan of hers since the 80s,I am 34 years old,and I would rather that she cater her music to my age group anyway...lol...her last three CDs contain mature,powerful,introspective songs that are clearly meant for older audiences.There's no more teeny-bopper bubblegum stuff on her albums nor should there be.I get so sick of people bringing up her age and acting as if it's a reason she should just give up her career.Would you suggest that Prince retire as well? How about Carlos Santana? Stevie Nicks perhaps? How about Sade? Sting? I want her to keep doing the music that SHE wants to make,and let it appeal to whomever "gets it".

If you really believe that Madonna is "tarnishing her legacy" by refusing to retire,then perhaps you should just enjoy her old albums and marvel at the person she used to be.The rest of us are in it for the long haul


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[This message was edited Fri Dec 19 4:21:06 PST 2003 by DavidEye]

American Life reached #37 and that's it.

VoicesCarry said:

Davideye might be reaching and saying that "Die Another Day" was an AL single.

VinnyM27 said:

Oh, perhaps. It was just a tack-on job to me, though.

I think AL is a far better album than Music. I liked the singles off of Music, with the title track being one of Madonna's best singles ever, but I can barely get through the rest of the album. I think AL has better songwriting, better melodies, and a tighter production. AL is the album that should've been the album in Music's place. But she had to go through Music to get to AL, just like she had to go through Ray of Light to get to Music.

I also think the Remixed and Revisited is a sign (hopefully) that Madonna's next album is going to be rock oriented. Every review of Remixed and Revisited has commented how much better the songs sound as rock songs. Maybe she'll even bring in Steve Lilywhite and we'll get a U2-styled Madonna album. I know, I'm dreaming...

The other thing to keep in mind is that, just like Prince, she's growing as a person and an artist. Madonna is much more interested in the spiritual side of things with Kabbalah, and with kids and marriage it changes a person. I don't think there's any reason why she should retire at this stage. I'm very interested to see what she does next.

DavidEye said:

I think you misinterpreted a lot of what I said.

1. I never claimed Madonna intended to retire, I was just discussing the option.

2. Yes, I know we went through the same thing with Erotica, but that was largely a public reaction to her poorly-conceived "slutty bad girl" public image than to shitty music. The reaction to AL was based primarily around what most people perceived was a shitty record. So they didn't buy it. Of course, it's understandable. The first single was perhaps her worst song ever (excluding the pre-1983 junk).

3. When I stated that "she'll never be what she was", I was speaking sales-wise, not artistically. You mention that her fan base will age along with her as she produces more mature music. But I was shocked at how quickly long-time fans abandoned her when AL came out. It was a mature record. I loved most of the songs. But the bottom line is that it wasn't FUN, which is what most people expect from a Madonna record. She does, after all, make pop music.

4. While there may be more to life than being controversial and selling records, Madonna has made a career out of being controversial and selling records. She is ruthless and uncompromising; even during the Evita years she spoke her mind and didn't let down her guard. I perceive that she's "softening" as she ages, and while that's not necessarily bad, I still think it was a tragic mistake to pull the video, because it started the chain reaction that doomed the album (no video ---> no one knew the song was out ---> no airplay ---> no album sales).

AL upset me in a way I did not expect. She tears down fantasy and fascades when most people flock to pop music as escapism from reality. AL was a cold spoon of truth which is never an easy sell.

So,DavidEye,what songs do you think are Madonna-classic-worthy on AL if not "Nothing Fails"?

So,DavidEye,what songs do you think are Madonna-classic-worthy on AL if not "Nothing Fails"?

***"Nobody Knows Me" was my favorite, the only song on AL I always end up skipping to.

"No one's telling you how to live your life
But it's a setup until you're fed up
It's no good when you're misunderstood
But why should I care
What the world thinks of me"

I'm 23, not able to persue the things I want to do, and I'm failing to do what is expected of me, too. I feel like I always have to answer to family and friends about the choices I make, and all of the lyrics really speak to being misunderstood. Alot of times I do feel setup to live out the idealist blueprints set out by the (capitalist) system of earning power and materialism. Those things aren't important to me but are vital to maintain "class", which seems determined by the world around me. Madonna touches on this message on "I'm So Stupid" too, sorta.

It's sort of like Janet said... "Does what they think of you determine your worth?"

That's my interpretation of "Nobody Knows Me".

"I don't want no lies
I don't watch TV
I don't waste my time
Won't read a magazine"

DavidEye said:

"Radio stations always play the same song"

She isn't exactly begging for promotion

"Trip the station, change the channel"

AL sounds raw and demo-ish. Just compare "Nothing Fails" to the new radio-y remix. That's the sort of treatment the album versions should have got in order to connect with a great audience, and us die-hards would have STILL loved it. Even Madonna's pre-AL harder-to-swallow singles had more polish, which I think is part of the key to their success.

I like Madonna alot and I am a musician so I can follow what is happening in these songs, but SOMEONE'S production seems unfinished on AL, yknow?

And did you ever hear the "radio edit" of "Hollywood"? They conveniently fade out the song BEFORE the "push the button,don't push the button,trip the station,change the channel" part...

I think AL is a very dope album that just unfortunately got missed or slept-on by alot of people.

VoicesCarry said:

"When I stated that "she'll never be what she was",I was speaking sales-wise,not artistically"

As I have stated before,EVERY artist sells less and less records as their career progresses.That's inevitable.It has nothing to do with the quality of their music,it's just the way it goes.Let's take a look at some of the other artists who were hot in the 80s along with Madonna...

Pat Benatar
Hall and Oates
Prince
Lionel Ritchie
The Go-Gos
Cyndi Lauper
Chicago
Tina Turner



Those are many of th artists who once shared chart space with Madonna in the 80s.When was the last time ANY of those people sold 5 million copies of an album (worldwide)? When was the last time any of those artists had a CD debut at Number One?


My point is...it was inevitable that Madonna would sell less records than she once did.But I can't see why you think this means that she should retire.I consider myself a REAL fan of Madonna and her music.I could care less about how many other people buy her CDs.If I like it,that's all I care about.But having said that,I still think she's in a much better position (sales-wise) than most longtime artists who have been around for 20 years or more.


"But I was shocked at how quickly longtime fans abandoned her when AL came out"

Abandoned her?? That's a little extreme,dontcha think? She makes ONE album that's not as succcessful as the others,and you conclude that her fans have abandoned her?? That's absurd.And if someone would stop being a fan just because of ONE album they dislike,they weren't really fans in the first place.I agree with you,most people seem to really like it when she's making "fun" songs ("Music" was her last Number One single,and the lyrics can hardly be considered deep).But Madonna is a different woman from the "Vogue" days and she has more important concerns/issues.You may think that the song "American Life" is her worst single ever,but that's clearly where she is at these days.There's alot more to life than just dancing and having fun.
[This message was edited Mon Dec 22 3:00:59 PST 2003 by DavidEye]