Ok, so far we've established:

Michael: his own fault

Whitney: her own fault

Tupac: (especially) his own fault. His involvement in that lifestyle eventually lead to his death, which affected us more than his living image ever could have.

Look at artists like Outkast who simply make great music and don't need to resort to the negative "thug" image that pervades rap these days. Then there's 50 cent, who thinks getting shot 9 times is a badge of honour. So are we going to call him the product of a racist society? Or is he just a dumbass? I think we know...

We all make choices in life. These artists have to live with their (largely poor) choices. White people did not tell Michael to bleach his face, hack off his nose, or invite 8-year-olds into his bed. White people didn't force Whitney to take drugs, and they sure as hell didn't force Tupac to become what he did. In the new documentary, he says "I never had a record until I had a record", which is a very telling statement. He created his image, and he died by it. I think he got in over his head with that lifestyle. It killed Biggie too, ultimately.
And countless other rappers. You breed violence, and you die by it.

The only reason people reacted so negatively to Whitney's descent is that she marketed herself as a classy singer, someone who young black girls could admire. To see her screw herself up was almost a betrayal.

VoicesCarry said:

I'm still not convinced that he has bleached his skin. If that was the case surely ten years ago he'd have said "Okay, that's enough". He just gets paler and paler, like people with vitiligo do.

Cloudbuster said:

Well, if that was the case, surely ten years ago he'd have said "Okay, that's enough" when it came to his nose, as well. The guy's insane, I don't expect a judgement call from him.

VoicesCarry said:

Agreed. Apart from the insane bit. Eccentric? Sure. Insane? No.

Cloudbuster said:

For years,I believed Mike when he said that he had that disease (vitiligo),but now I have my doubts.Consider this...


***In 1991,his brother Jermaine released a single called "Word To The Bad",which was clearly aimed at Michael.The song included this line..."Once you were made,you changed your shade,was your color wrong?".Now,if Mike really did have that disease,wouldn't HIS OWN BROTHER know about it?


***On one of those recent MJ news specials,several doctors and dermatalogists gave their views and they're convinced that MJ did indeed have his skin bleached.One doctor pointed out that it is illegal in America and that Mike probably had it done elsewhere (Sweden?),back in the 80s.


***On that recent documentary,Mike denied that he had extensive plastic surgery,when we all know that he did.So if he would lie on national TV about this,how could we believe him when he says he has that disease?


Factor all these things together,and it looks like MJ really did have his skin bleached.He's obviously way too obsessed about his appearance,and did everything he could to alter his looks.It's sad and very tragic.

DavidEye said:

So does this mean that he's still having his skin bleached? The guy is almost transparent. What the fuck would be the point of that. It's also possible that he may have bleached his skin to get rid of darker patches that remained from vitiligo. There was an interview around the time of Invincible's release when he turned up after a visit to his dermatologists and he wasn't wearing any make up. The interviewer herself said that you could clearly see patches on his face. And if you look carefully there are some scenes in his They Don't Care About Us video where you can also see dark patches on his arms.

Cloudbuster said:

That's possible. But then why the extensive plastic surgery to the rest of his face? He looks like some sort of sadistic clown these days, and he had great facial structure back in the early 80s. He's almost alien-like now...it's hard to accept his appearance. Remember those rumours that he wanted to look like Diana Ross? He's almost there...

VoicesCarry said:

I still don't believe he's had as much surgery as people make out. Clearly he's had his nose done several times and had some work on his chin, too. But his cheekbones are the same as is his jawline which a lot of people say he has had changed. His eyebrows have been reshaped and he's quite obviously had botox injections or something similar as he could hardly move his face at all a couple of years ago.

Cloudbuster said:

Go take a look at his new video that comes along with the song 'One More Chance', which is no more than a compilation of all the video's of his career between 1981-2003... It gives she a good look at how much this freak has done on his face!

Again, someone should lock him up!

abierman said:

So people who have plastic surgery deserve to be locked up?! That's a hell of a lot of prison space that's gonna be needed. Michael was called ugly by members of his own family. How would that make you feel? He did something about it which he has since admitted to regretting doing.

Cloudbuster said:

Michael was NEVER ugly back then,depsite what his family members may have said.And even if they really told him that,there was still no reason for him to have all that plastic surgery.

DavidEye said:

I agree. I recently watched the videos to Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough and Rock With You...the man was beautiful. But Michael has always been a sensitive, troubled soul (at least as an adult) so it's no real surprise that he did what he did.

Cloudbuster said:

ofcourse not, he should be locked up for being the freak that he is! Where there's smoke, there's a fire! Also, he should be protected against himself, he is not a happy man!

abierman said:

And locking him up would make him so much happier, right?

He ain't a freak. He just has his issues like anyone else. His are just more extreme than most because of his circumstance. He's a modern day eccentric. That is all. Prince is one as well. Or hadn't you noticed.

Cloudbuster said:

You saw the mug shot, right? He doesn't even look human! Tons of surgery.

Cloudbuster said:

Hey, letting him free to do whatever he comes up with in his fucked up mind would do the trick? Mutulate his own face and body until he looks even more like a fucking alien? Come on, a line has to be drawn that says: no further!
'Modern eccentric' - oh that's a beautiful definition! Does this titled give him free way to mess up the mind of innocent little kids that come sleepover at Uncle Mike's? Fuck that shit!
Prince sure is a modern eccentric, yes I noticed. But Prince hasn't lost his contact to the world as much as MJ. If you see interviews with P. you see a man with humor and very much talent. The only thing that is screwed up are his JW-believes! I haven't heard of kiddie-sleepovers in Paisley Park, or P sleeping in a oxygen-tank. It 's about the music first, when it comes to Prince!
[This message was edited Thu Dec 4 6:08:34 PST 2003 by abierman]

Cloudbuster said:

VoicesCarry said:

That mug shot is scary,indeed! And why does it look as if he is wearing lipstick??

VoicesCarry said:

Yeah. Not the most complimentary picture I've ever seen but mugshots rarely are.

abierman said:

And what fucked up kids would they be? The two whose parents urged them to make dodgy accusations because they saw the $ sign. What kind of parent would settle that shit out of court. And I don't mean to be rude but what business is it of yours what MJ does with life anyway?

And as for Prince, he's as far removed from reality than most people who have ever walked the earth.

abierman said:

I completely agree! One thing that pisses me off is the way his supporters,family and friends always excuse his behavior by saying absurd things like "He had a rough childhood" or "He's a boy trapped in a grown mans' body" blah blah blah.The bottom line is,Michael has serious "issues" and he needs help.THE LINE MUST FINALLY BE DRAWN.There's no way around it.Michael should have been in therapy DECADES ago,dealing with these problems,and he probably wouldn't be in the mess he is in right now.
[This message was edited Thu Dec 4 6:27:16 PST 2003 by DavidEye]

Cloudbuster said:

There will always be bad people that are driven only by money, willing to sacrifice whatever is needed to achieve that goal...Still, society is obligated to protect these children and to protect MJ. Right now MJ is under the impression that everything is for sale: he settled 10 years ago for many millions of $ and you saw how easy the freak posted a $ 3 million bail just to get back to Vegas to shoot his damn video!

Prince may be removed from reality, but he is not molesting small boys and is not looking like an alien due to plastic surgery!
[This message was edited Thu Dec 4 6:38:04 PST 2003 by abierman]

Cloudbuster said:

Exhibit A: http://www.thesmokinggun....arch1.html

Scam artists usually do not try to hit the same mark twice. And powerful celebrities do NOT pay out millions of dollars in closed-door settlements unless they're GUILTY. SMART powerful celebrities (or SANE ones) also do not continue to invite childeren into their homes and beds after being accused of child molestation! They also do not build amusement parks and invite children over for cotton candy parties or whatever it is he does.

And bottom line, he hasn't made good music in about 15 years...have no idea why his acolytes are still so nuts about him.

True, VoicesCarry...so fucking true!

VoicesCarry said:

That's a matter of opinion. Some people say the same about Prince. Lovesexy is regarded by many to be his last truly great album. Oddly enough it's 15 years old.

not 2 b rude... U talk & walk big in a stride thats not your own...at some point u will trip and fall hard on your ass or face...people who r hailing Pac like a angel r a disgrace!

true gifted brotha, he was still very much an afflicted brotha. he romanced death it took his last breath. perfect example of a man who journeys from the light 2 the darkside, one 2 many trips cut short that brothas ride.

same common sense & life lessons apply 2 us all*

VoicesCarry said:

Funny then that the criminal investigation was pursued for months after the civil settlement and still turned up nothing. If he's guilty then I'll be the first to say I got it wrong. But if it was Prince who was going through this shit then you'd be defending him just the same.

Cloudbuster said:

That might also be true, but still you know for sure that when you go see a live-show by Prince, you will see a man very much in touch with his music, his passion.
I've see MJ-footage, 'performing' live, and all you see pathetic creature that lip-synchs and does some very well studied dance-moves. No improvisation whatsoever.

Twink, I kinda feel what you say even tho you should've tried another approach with discussing the issue(and that Michael Moore is my NEW hero, he's the coolest white guy eva. Not becoz of his sick sarcasm but becoz of his brutal honesty that nobody out-there could handle,,,obeviously anyway )

The media is ALWAYS white oriented and controled, ain't no ?uestion about that(including the hypocrite black media too).

You don't really see them hyping the Paris Hilton's sex tape or Tommy & Pamela's saga(him beating her ass and doing a helluva sex tape).

White folks(or some of them 2 be fair) are STILL caught up in that O.J. Simpson bullshit, could u imagine that? This shit amazes me, man!

Do they care about Woody Allen marrying his adopted daughter? NO, they rather put their energy on R.Kelly while there're MILLIONS of child-molesting bastards out-there who're free and nobody say JACK 2 them.

Do they hype about Courtney Love's serious drug addiction which is mo' serious than Whitney's becoz obeviously that caused a serious problem-her daughter being taken away from her? HELL NO,, back on hammering Whitney and her lil' bad boy as they're the ONLY troubled couple in the world(once again, none of them care about Tommy & Pam). And not 2 mention Danny Jr. or something(from Ally McBeal,,,I 4got his name) who was a serious drug addict and thankfuly he's sober now,,,did any of them DOG him? Yeah some articles over here and there but they stopped. There was no CBS special on his drug use, there was no goddamn Diane Sawyer in that mess.

Phill Spector is invovled in a murder case and I don't see none of them mofos move a muscle,,,when it was Puffy/P.Didddy,,the media had a BUSY day.

It may sound harsh but it seems that its very ENTERTAINING to them dogging famous black artists.

As 4 2Pac? Whateva,,some of you need to open yo minds a "little" and dig deeper rather than just settle with the outside and judge from it.

"Gangsta rap" is a term coined and sensationalized by the media therefore they dont tell you about the artist that went to college but only about those who were shot several times and who slang to put food on the table. During the span of 2pacs career they never focused on how smart the brotha really was its not hip hops fault its the media and how they brain wash our children to think that all of these things are whats in and what they need to do. We have to draw the line somewhere "each one teach one"

I bet none o' ya'll would call Slim Shady's shit "gangsta",,,yeah man, thats double standards alright!


Far as the "nigga" saga? Well, I admit that my ppl are their OWN worst enemy when it comes down to that mess,,,nuff said!